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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • September 21, 2020 at 2:00 pm#866339
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Hi Berean,

    No, we’re not enemies at all.  Hey, have you pondered Proclaimer’s philosophical question he’s posted a couple of times? (It’s like 6 posts above this one.)

    If Jesus and the Father are both eternal, then at one point they (he?) produced the very first CREATED person, right?  Who was that first-created person?  Why wouldn’t God have told us all kinds of things about their (his?) firstborn son/daughter?

    The Bible is full of genealogies and accounts that put most of the focus on everyone’s FIRSTBORN, right?  The firstborn was always special, more important, received more of the inheritance, etc.  Why hasn’t the Father/Jesus/God Unit told us anything at all about their firstborn son?

    September 21, 2020 at 2:14 pm#866340
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Mike

    There are two significant verses in Hebrews 1

    1: 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    5

    1: 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father.

    September 21, 2020 at 2:14 pm#866341
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU:

    I hope you can see it now.  The “light” that came into the world IS the one who bears the only name by which we can be saved, “Jesus”.  And since the light IS Jesus, then it is Jesus who was with God in the beginning, and Jesus through whom the world was created, and Jesus who emptied himself of his lofty position in the heavens to be made as a human being – making him not only the offspring of David… but also the ROOT of David – just as he told us.

    ME: 

    I don’t see at all the LIGHT that Jesus is declared to be, is shown to pre-exist. I actually see the very opposite of that.

    Jesus is the LIGHT because he was called to righteousness, because God’s Spirit came upon him without measure.

    Jesus even said to John that he must be baptized so to fulfill all righteousness. 

    John 1 is about Jesus becoming the light because the Spirit came upon him like a dove, where then he was sent to fulfill THE WORD that was from the beginning, eternal life. The word also from the beginning as we are told in Isaiah 46, it that a man would come to execute God’s word. 

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a LIGHT of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. 

    Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? 11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives,

    sound familiar,

    Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

    Jesus is a light because the Spirit of YHVH came upon him without measure, glory that God gave to no other mortal man as He promised, it was a calling to righteousness where God would hold his hand, keep him, direct all his ways, for the purpose that He would do God’s work saving us, fulfilling God’s word that had been with God from the beginning.

    We read later in Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. 18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. 

    YHVH formed the earth by Himself, YHVH forms the light. Jesus became a light upon the Spirit descending like a dove, and lighting upon him.

    September 21, 2020 at 2:32 pm#866342
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Jesus is the Word of God

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was with God in the beginning…

    And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 

    Definition of ‘Created’

    “Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.” 

    By this we know the Word was not made as it couldn’t came through him or it if he or it didn’t exist.

    Definition of ‘Begotten’

    Means fathered. Directly from the Father. Begotten of the Father.

    Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee…

    Conclusion

    Whatever was first had to be begotten in order for all that followed to be created.

    Whatever, whoever was first had to come from God’s own nature because there was nothing else but God to be derived from. He is the image of God.

    But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.

    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

    September 21, 2020 at 2:32 pm#866343
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi:  I don’t see at all the LIGHT that Jesus is declared to be, is shown to pre-exist. 

    Do you see from John 1 that the LIGHT came into a world that was created through him, but his own did not receive him?

     

    September 21, 2020 at 2:50 pm#866345
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:Mike

    There are two significant verses in Hebrews 1

    1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father.

    They are not as significant as you might think.  The answer to the second one could simply be “Jesus”.  That would also be the answer to this question:

    To which of the angels did God give the revelation to be written down by the Apostle John?  Again, the answer would be “Jesus”, because Jesus is the angel that God gave that revelation to.  Then Jesus in turn gave it to one of his angels, who in turn gave it to John.

    The first one is easy once you realize that there is no such thing as an “angel” in the Bible.  Both the Hebrew and Greek words simply mean “messenger”.  Here’s your first verse in Young’s Literal Translation:

    having become so much better than the messengers, as he did inherit a more excellent name than they.

    So Jesus became better than “the messengers”.  Seeing how it is absolutely undeniable that Jesus was himself a messenger of God, the intent of the statement is that Jesus became better than the [other] messengers, and was given a more excellent name than them.

    Before you reject this, come to understand that the Greek word “aggelos” really and truly simply means “messenger”.  And since there’s no denying that Jesus was indeed a “messenger” of his and our God, my understanding is the only one that fits.  And I will even offer some scriptural support…

    2 Kings 25:27-28

    …in the year Awel-Marduk became king of Babylon, he released Jehoiachin king of Judah from prison… He spoke kindly to him and gave him a seat of honor higher than those of the other kings who were with him in Babylon.

    See that?  The word “other” is not actually in the Hebrew text.  But since Jehoiachin was himself a king, it would be confusing to say that he was placed above “the kings” – as if he wasn’t also a king.  So many translations add the word “other” into the text, because that is the clear meaning of it.  It is the same with Hebrews 1:4.

     

    September 21, 2020 at 3:52 pm#866346
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The word ‘angel’ is not always what we think.

    Whilst we think of angels as spiritual beings like Seraphim, Cherubim, etc, the word just means messenger.

    And Jesus and John are messengers as prophesied here:

    Malachi 3:1
    “See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking  will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.

    What has happened is human messengers or prophets have become confused with messengers on short-term assignments from heaven, whether spirit-beings or resurrected persons. All are messengers though.

    The word angel derives from the Greek ‘angelos’, meaning “messenger.” It is used in the Bible to denote God’s attendants

    September 21, 2020 at 9:10 pm#866352
    Berean
    Participant

    Proclaimer

    You

    JESUS IS THE WORD OF GOD
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was with God in the beginning…

    And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    DEFINITION OF ‘CREATED’
    “Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.”

    By this we know the Word was not made as it couldn’t came through him or it if he or it didn’t exist.

    DEFINITION OF ‘BEGOTTEN’
    Means fathered. Directly from the Father. Begotten of the Father.

    Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee…

    CONCLUSION
    Whatever was first had to be begotten in order for all that followed to be created.

    Whatever, whoever was first had to come from God’s own nature because there was nothing else but God to be derived from. He is the image of God.

    But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.

    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

    Me

    Well summed up Proclaimer
    That IS That Colossians 1:17 say
    And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    September 22, 2020 at 1:49 am#866353
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all……Jodi is right ‘the word “of God”  came into existence , it was the,   “flesh man Jesus”.  Jesus was and is not the word of God “himself”  he is “called” the word of God, as a nickname, why?, because he tells us God the Fathers Words, just as he said he did . “the words I am telling you are “NOT” MY WORDS, but the words of “HIM” that “SENT” me.”  

    What part of that you people don’t understand? Have you thrown that completely out of your bibles?

    Mike, and Proclaimer, why not tell us what you think about that scripture, do you “truley believe what Jesus said, Or not? 

    As far as the light of the world goes, here is what Jesus told us who believe,

    Mat 5:14….“You “ARE” the light of the world”. 

    MAT 5: …..“Let  your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and Glorify “YOUR” FATHER which is “in” heaven. That’s exactly what Jesus was doing. 

    So please tell us again how Jesus is different then we are.  Satan never stops to try to make Jesus out to be different then we are , working through his servants, making Jesus out to be different than we his brothers and sisters are, buy his  false teachers teaching his “DOCTRINES OF SEPERATION”. 

    Peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

     

     

    September 22, 2020 at 2:34 am#866354
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Gene

    You

    Jesus was and is not the word of God “himself”  he is “called” the word of God, as a nickname, why?, because he tells us God the Fathers Words, just as he said he did . “the words I am telling you are “NOT” MY WORDS, but the words of “HIM” that “SENT” me.”

    Jesus was and is not the word of God “himself”, he is “called” the word of God, as a nickname, why ?, Because he tells us the words of God the fathers, as he l ‘said. “The words that I tell you are ‘NOT’ MY WORDS, but the words of ‘HIM’ that ‘SENT’ me.”

    Me

    Gene

    You say it is called the word of God as a nickname … ok well
    Precisely what John (in John 1) calls “The Word” is The Son of God who was with God and who was God.
    Can you admit, believe what the Bible says here in John 1?

     

     

    September 22, 2020 at 6:24 am#866358
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..Please show us “precisely” where a single word in John 1,  says the word of God “is” Jesus? As I recall it says, “in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and “Was GOD”. God and his words are one and the same just as you and your words are . 

    JESUS said, “this is eternal life, that they might know “YOU” the “ONLY” “TRUE” God”…… Jesus was not speaking about himself , he was talking about some one else  , that is why he said “YOU” . 

    Berean if he was talking about himself, he would have said “I am”, instead of “YOU” are.  Surely you do  understand that, right?

    The bottom line to all this is to make Jesus appear “different” then the rest of “humanity” , exactly what Satan wants, by his teachings . Most all of Chrtsendom has fallen for his “lie” ,  turning the “image” of  the man Jesus into a God.  2THS2,  for those who have eyes to see. 

    Peace and love to you and yours…….gene

    September 22, 2020 at 7:31 am#866359
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Berean if he was talking about himself, he would have said “I am”, instead of “YOU” are. Surely you do understand that, right?

    Well he also did say. AND Jesus Christ whom you have sent. So it doesn’t sound like he is Jesus either. However, you are correct. Paul states it clearly.

    There is one God, the Father, and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.

    yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, the Lord  Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    September 22, 2020 at 7:35 am#866360
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Well summed up Proclaimer
    That IS That Colossians 1:17 say
    And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Thanks Berean.

    September 22, 2020 at 7:43 am#866361
    Berean
    Participant

    And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    [18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

     

    Gene or Jodi

    In these verses

    WHO IS before all things?

    WHO IS the head if the church?

    September 22, 2020 at 8:49 am#866363
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Berean.

    Watch them give long winded answers to skirt your questions. Although now that I have said that, they might try to prove me wrong on that, which would be good.

    September 22, 2020 at 5:41 pm#866369
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Gene

    You

    Berean…..Please show us “precisely” where a single word says the word of God “is” Jesus? As I recall it says, “in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and “Was GOD”.

     

    In Révélation 19: 13.  Gene

    And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    THE ONE WHO IS CALLED “THE WORD OF GOD” IS JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF

     

    September 22, 2020 at 7:36 pm#866370
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Pretty clear isn’t it Berean.

    September 22, 2020 at 7:52 pm#866371
    Berean
    Participant

    Pretty clear isn’t it Berean?

    The book of Revelation is the book of books. It unveils some mysteries and more …

    September 22, 2020 at 9:39 pm#866372
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

    September 22, 2020 at 10:01 pm#866373
    Berean
    Participant

    Amen

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