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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • May 31, 2020 at 7:13 am#864376
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  I used to think that too but reading the early church father’s writings, they quote it as the “Lamb slain before the foundation of the world” from what I remember so I go by that.

    Okay, suit yourself.  I don’t think it’s rocket science to look at both of those scriptures side by side and realize that there were names written in a book of life from the founding of the world, and that the Lamb who was slain now possesses that book.  The one verse clearly identifies names written in a book from the founding of the world.  The other mentions the same book, and a Lamb being slain, and “from the founding of the world”.  It’s not a stretch to conclude that “from the founding of the world” belongs with the names being written in the book – and not the Lamb being slain – since that is CLEARLY the teaching in the other verse from the same author.

    May 31, 2020 at 7:42 am#864377
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  Israel was the servant to Israel as a father.

    Oh brother. 🙄

    Dear Entire Nation of Israel,

    I ask that you do not go to war with our people.  I ask in the name of your servants, five individual people who are also members of the very Nation of Israel to whom I am appealing.  😄

    Give it up, girl.  The apostles CLEARLY prayed to a certain single Sovereign Lord (hence “Lord” and not “Lords”).  The apostles CLEARLY understood that Jesus was NOT this single Sovereign Lord to whom they prayed, but a separate individual who was a servant OF the single Sovereign Lord to whom they prayed.  And the apostles CLEARLY understood that this single Sovereign Lord to whom they prayed was the ONE who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and EVERYTHING in them.  Jesus, the servant OF this single Sovereign Lord who created EVERYTHING, must therefore be one of the things in the heavens, the earth, and the sea that was created BY the single Sovereign Lord to whom they prayed.

    Of course this is attested by many other scriptures, including this statement from God’s servant Jesus himself…

    Revelation 3:14

    And to the messenger of the church in Laodicea write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God…

    This other one is authored by Jesus too…

    Proverbs 8

    22 YHVH created me as the first of his works, before his deeds of long ago.

    23 From ancient days I was appointed, from the beginning, from before the world existed.

    24 When there were no deep oceans I was born, when there were no springs overflowing with water;

    25 before the mountains were set in place –before the hills – I was born,

    26 before he made the earth and its fields, or the beginning of the dust of the world.

    Seems clear that the speaker was created as the FIRST of YHVH’s works… before YHVH made the earth.  Seems equally clear that the speaker must be Jesus, otherwise one of the two has lied, since both claim to be the first thing God created.  It also would mean that Paul lied, since he too identifies Jesus as the firstborn of every creature.

    May 31, 2020 at 7:50 am#864378
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  Jehovah is both God of gods and Lord of lords. Jesus is the Lord of lords part.

    Oh, so you ARE still teaching that doctrine!  So that would mean the apostles were praying to the JESUS part of the Godhead in Acts 4, because they prayed to “Sovereign Lord”, right?  So do you suppose they prayed to Jesus through Jesus’ holy servant Jesus?

    May 31, 2020 at 7:55 am#864379
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  Or, is eternal life knowing the only true God AND Jesus?

    Eternal life is knowing the only true God (our and Jesus’ God) AND that God’s servant, priest, sacrificial lamb, prophet, anointed one, mediator, spokesman, angel, first creation, and only begotten Son, Jesus.

    Well done, Kathi.  We must know both our God AND His servant Jesus to have eternal life.  Of course if Jesus was PART OF God, as you suspect, then it wouldn’t be said that we’d have to know BOTH Jesus AND God, would it?

    May 31, 2020 at 8:08 am#864380
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: KING THE FATHER, and KING THE SON. 

    Really?  So where can I read in scripture about David being addressed as “King the father”, and Solomon being addressed as “King the son”.  Or better yet, where can I read in scripture about Jesus being called “God the son”?  I can’t, can I?  I can, however, read “King David” and “King Solomon”.  I can read “son of David”, and “son of God”.  Perhaps you could find me some secular historical documents where David was called “King the father” and Solomon was called “King the son”.  I’ll wait.

    In the meantime, does the Most High God of gods have a God of His own?

    May 31, 2020 at 8:15 am#864381
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: SCRIPTURE:

    Matthew 15:18 But the things which proceed out of the mouth, (WORDS)

    come forth from the heart,
    and those things defile a man.

    I’m asking for a scripture that says Jesus is the very heart of God – as you’ve claimed.  Even applying your inapplicable scriptures, the best you could claim is that Jesus – as the literal words God spoke – came FROM the heart of God… which clearly isn’t the same thing as BEING the heart of God.  And again, that is only if you believe Jesus is literal words God spoke.  Of course he isn’t.  You know that right?

    Carmel: I JUST REMEMBERED YOU DON’T LIKE TOO LONG POSTS.

    You post as many words as you like.  But just so you know, I only skim quickly to find the first vaguely coherent thing you said that remotely addresses the point I made to you.  I address only that part, and don’t even bother reading the rest.

    May 31, 2020 at 8:20 am#864382
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: who gave Mike, JESUS, who received Mike, THE FATHER,
    who is greater Mike?

    Sorry dude… I couldn’t make heads or tails out of that convoluted post.  What did Jesus give to the Father again?  And is it really worth all this mental gymnastics you’re going through – just to try to prove that Jesus is greater?  After all, we can just read and believe Jesus’ own words, right?

    John 14:28

    …the Father is greater than I.

    Shouldn’t that settle it?

    May 31, 2020 at 8:27 am#864383
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel:  we are now the sons of God

    If we are sons of God, but BROTHERS of Jesus, what does that tell you?

    1.  Sons of God?  YES.
    2. Sons of Jesus?  NO.
    3. Conclusion:  Jesus is not God.

    Pretty simple, really.

    May 31, 2020 at 8:36 am#864384
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: SO THE HOLY SPIRIT WORKS ALL MY HIMSELF, WITH HIS SPIRITUAL MIND

    HE IS THE SERVANT THIS TIME 

    HE IS SERVING JESUS CHRIST  John16:12-15
    IT IS HIS TASK  THROUGH OUR MOST BLESSED MOTHER MARY TO MAKE YOU ANOTHER JESUS

    Sorry, I don’t speak drunkenese.  But are we in agreement now that Jesus is the holy servant of the Sovereign Lord who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them?  Or are you still trying to argue that the Greek word means “servant” for David, but “child” for Jesus?  Because if so, maybe it’d help to know that God often calls Jesus “my holy servant David”.  Did you know that?

    May 31, 2020 at 8:44 am#864385
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  Did he not create you?

    Of course not.  I was created by Jesus’ own God, who, by the way, also created Jesus.  That’s why I am a son of Jesus’ God… but a brother of Jesus.  Get it?  Not a son of Jesus.  I just shared this with Carmel, but maybe it’ll help you too…

    1.  Son of God?  YES.
    2.  Son of Jesus?  NO.
    3.   Conclusion:  Jesus is not God.
    May 31, 2020 at 8:50 am#864386
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  You don’t have eternal life unless you have “both doorknobs”(as you say), the Father and the Son.

    But that wasn’t my question.  I asked if I had made it to God just by getting to Jesus.

     

    LU: Yes, it is true that Jesus can do nothing without his and our Father and God.

    Yes, it is true that our Father and God can do nothing without his servant Jesus.

    Okay, I know where to find many scriptures that support your first claim… including one where Jesus point blank says it directly.  Would you be so kind as to point me to the scripture(s) that supports your second claim?

    May 31, 2020 at 10:03 am#864388
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    @Jodi, what happened to you?  Let’s walk through John 1 together.

    May 31, 2020 at 4:01 pm#864391
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said:

    John 5:30
    I cannot do anything on my own…

    John 14:28

    …the Father is greater than I.

    Mark 13:32

    But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

    Mark 10:40

    but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant…

    Mike, none of those verses are about Jesus’ own power, ability and strength. One verse is about who initiates what Jesus does. That is not about Jesus’s power, ability or  strength. In fact, you can see that Jesus is fully capable to do all the Father initiates for him to do.  None of the verses are about Jesus’ own power, ability, and strength…none of them.

     

    May 31, 2020 at 4:17 pm#864392
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said: The apostles CLEARLY prayed to a certain single Sovereign Lord (hence “Lord” and not “Lords”).

    I agree, they prayed to the ONE LORD (YHVH) who created all things in heaven and on earth, who is one unity of Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. They emphasized the Son within that unity as the one whose name they performed miraculous works through.

    You said:

    Revelation 3:14

    And to the messenger of the church in Laodicea write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God…

    NET Bible:

    Rev 3:14 “To[a] the angel of the church in Laodicea write the following:

    “This is the solemn pronouncement of[c] the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the originator[d] of God’s creation:

    Proverbs 8:22 see the Hebrew and the interlinear translation:

    Screen Shot 2020-05-31 at 12.13.39 AM

    You said: Seems clear that the speaker was created as the FIRST of YHVH’s works… before YHVH made the earth.

    Seems clear that the speaker was possessed at the beginning, before His works, not as His first work.

     

    May 31, 2020 at 4:20 pm#864393
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said: Oh, so you ARE still teaching that doctrine! So that would mean the apostles were praying to the JESUS part of the Godhead in Acts 4, because they prayed to “Sovereign Lord”, right? So do you suppose they prayed to Jesus through Jesus’ holy servant Jesus?

    No. They prayed to YHVH who is the unity of the Son,  the Father, and their Holy Spirit, not just the Son.

    May 31, 2020 at 4:33 pm#864394
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said:

    Of course not. I was created by Jesus’ own God, who, by the way, also created Jesus.

    NET Bible notes on Col 1:15

    Colossians 1:15 tn The Greek term πρωτότοκος (prōtotokos) could refer either to first in order of time, such as a first born child, or it could refer to one who is preeminent in rank. M. J. Harris, Colossians and Philemon (EGGNT), 43, expresses the meaning of the word well: “The ‘firstborn’ was either the eldest child in a family or a person of preeminent rank. The use of this term to describe the Davidic king in Ps 88:28 LXX (=Ps 89:27 EVV), ‘I will also appoint him my firstborn (πρωτότοκον), the most exalted of the kings of the earth,’ indicates that it can denote supremacy in rank as well as priority in time. But whether the πρωτό- element in the word denotes time, rank, or both, the significance of the -τοκος element as indicating birth or origin (from τίκτω, give birth to) has been virtually lost except in ref. to lit. birth.” In Col 1:15 the emphasis is on the priority of Jesus’ rank as over and above creation (cf. 1:16 and the “for” clause referring to Jesus as Creator).
    Colossians 1:15 tn The genitive construction πάσης κτίσεως (pasēs ktiseōs) is a genitive of subordination and is therefore translated as “over all creation.” See ExSyn 103-4.

    NET Bible on Hebrews 1:10

    10 And,

    “You founded the earth in the beginning, Lord,[ac]
    and the heavens are the works of your hands.

    Hebrews 1:10 sn You founded the earth…your years will never run out. In its original setting Ps 102:25-27 refers to the work of God in creation, but here in Hebrews 1:10-12 the writer employs it in reference to Christ, the Lord, making a strong argument for the essential deity of the Son.

    Maybe that will help you 😉

     

    May 31, 2020 at 4:43 pm#864395
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said: But that wasn’t my question. I asked if I had made it to God just by getting to Jesus.

    You want scripture? Here you go: 1 John 5

    11And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

    If you think that having the Son only without having the Father, is even possible, then you do not know the Son and therefore do not have the Son. So, if you do not have the Son, you do not have eternal life according to 1John 5:11.

    Ask the LORD to reveal the Son to you so that you may “have” him. Right now you deny the creator Son and substitute Him with a created son.

    May 31, 2020 at 4:58 pm#864396
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Regarding this post:

    LU: Yes, it is true that Jesus can do nothing without his and our Father and God.

    Yes, it is true that our Father and God can do nothing without his servant Jesus.

    Mike: Okay, I know where to find many scriptures that support your first claim… including one where Jesus point blank says it directly.  Would you be so kind as to point me to the scripture(s) that supports your second claim?

    John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
    1 Cor 8:6b… and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
    Col 1:16 For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.
    Matthew 11:27
    All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

    John 1:9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

     

    Think Mike, if all things came into being that have come into being through the Son then the Father can do nothing in relation to creation unless all things have come into being, this should be obvious. Apart from the Son, there would be no created thing…even you. It is the Son who gives the right to become children of God. Apart from the Son, there are no children of God therefore the Father can do nothing in relation to His children if the Son does not give anyone the right to become His children.

     

     

     

    May 31, 2020 at 5:36 pm#864397
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

     You wrote:

    Son of God?  YES.
    Son of Jesus?  NO.
    Conclusion:  Jesus is not God.

    Apart from Jesus giving you the right to be a child of God, you aren’t a child of God.

    Unless Jesus gives you eternal life, you don’t have eternal life and are only the son of satan.

    Unless your conclusion changes, I don’t know how you can have a hint of a hope of salvation. You testify of a created son and DENY the creator Son.

    If Peter said to Jesus, “you are the created son of God” in front of all the other created sons of God, why would that even be remarkable in any way? Think about it.

    June 1, 2020 at 1:11 am#864398
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    If all creation was made through the son, then how is the son a created being?

    Then the thinking creeps in. He must be God.

    But he was the first to be with God.

    He was begotten.

    He is not God.

    He is the Son.

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