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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • April 26, 2020 at 3:58 am#863370
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: 24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God

    . “Sovereign Lord,” they said,
    Isn’t that enough Mike?

    what else do you require from Acts 4:24 to justify

    YOUR POINT?

    Why is this like pulling teeth, Carmel?  I ask who they were praying to, and you say, “the Lord”.  I ask you to IDENTIFY the Lord to whom they prayed, and you say, “Sovereign Lord”.  Dude, what is his NAME? 😁   What is the NAME of the one to whom they prayed?   Or better yet… is “Jesus” the name of the one to whom they prayed?

    April 26, 2020 at 4:15 am#863371
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: NOT A SERVANT ANYMORE BUT
     GOD the son,
    Galatians 4:7 Therefore, now he is not a servant, but a son. 

    You are very confused, Carmel…

    1.  Not “God the son”, but “the son OF God”.  Big difference.
    2.  Galatians 4:7 isn’t about Jesus.  Paul is talking about believers undertaking a new and better relationship with God.  It was about us being “promoted” from simple slaves to actual spiritual sons of God.  Jesus was a spiritual son of God from the moment God created him as the first of His works.  Jesus didn’t need to get promoted to “spiritual son of God”.  And even as “spiritual sons of God”, we and Jesus will always still be servants of our God.
    3. Case in point: the prayer in Acts 4 was AFTER Jesus was raised to the right hand of his and our God, and AFTER he had been given a ton of power and authority BY his and our God.  Yet they still called him God’s holy servant, right?

    Carmel:  All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.

    NOT A TON OF POWER.

     

    1 Corinthians 15:27

    For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    Who gave Jesus “all power and authority”, Carmel?  Do you imagine that by giving this power to Jesus, the One who gave it relinquished His own power?  Do you imagine that the one who was granted power by the greater One now has MORE power than the greater One?

     

     

    April 26, 2020 at 4:41 am#863374
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: Yes Mike, Jesus is THE ACTUAL LITERAL WORD SPOKEN OF GOD

    No he’s not.  But if he was, then your doctrine is in trouble.  How can a single word someone spoke be greater than the one who spoke that word?  How does the speaker become the servant of a word that he spoke?  And what of all the other words that speaker spoke in his lifetime?  Did all of those words also become living entities that the speaker now has to serve?  You are a very confused person, Carmel.  Keep your posts small and to the point, and I’m happy to go through these odd beliefs you have to see if we can figure out where the problem lies.  Cheers.

    April 26, 2020 at 5:20 am#863375
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said: But now YOU are also claiming that the Most High God would have no power to do anything if not for His Son? Are you serious?

    Nope, not what I said.

    April 26, 2020 at 5:21 am#863376
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You asked: Wait a minute… are you saying that the cell splitting scenario you’re pushing doesn’t stand up to scrutiny?

    No, I’m not saying that.

    April 26, 2020 at 5:22 am#863377
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said: I’m still wanting to know about the prayer in Acts 4…

    I answered that soon after you asked. Go look for it, I’ll wait.

    April 26, 2020 at 5:24 am#863378
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi said: One does not have truth when they fully IGNORE scripture and don’t apply context, as well as other passages, but instead just see things how they want to see, such is the blind leading the blind.

    The pot calling the kettle black?

    April 26, 2020 at 6:25 am#863383
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU:

    To Jodi, Gene and anyone who thinks Jesus began his existence as a human being…

    John 17:5 How could Jesus ask God to glorify him with the glory he had with/from/of/alongside God before the world began?

    ME:

    Mike, I understand God’s prophecies to be of His purpose declared from the beginning, so that makes the prophecy of Psalms 8 God’s word from the beginning, and in that word you have a MAN who God gives glory and honor to.

    The Man Jesus knew this glory that was from the beginning that was of God for the Son of Man. In John 17 the Son of Man Jesus is asking for that glory, showing his faith in God’s word.

    When I then read that it is the Son of Man that is exalted to the right hand of God, God’s word from the beginning is confirmed as true. 

    When I then read that it is the Son of Man returning in his Father’s glory, God’s word from the beginning is confirmed as true. 

    April 26, 2020 at 6:56 am#863385
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Lu,

    I am hoping you will reply to what I said about applying Proverbs 3, Isaiah’s prophecy, and the first half of Proverbs 8 with the second half of Proverbs 8.

    Proverbs 3:19 The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens. 20 By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew.

    I’d like to point out something else, the LORD is doing the CREATING, He is making the COMMANDS, while His wisdom was there with him.  

    Proverbs 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. 32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. 34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. 35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.

    April 26, 2020 at 6:59 am#863386
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Lu,

    Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

    Jesus didn’t say “I” or “we” created them, he spoke of his God and our God creating them male and female.

     

    April 26, 2020 at 7:08 am#863387
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike….I agree with a lot of stuff you say,  but the Glory that Jesus had before the world was ever created,  was what God had planned for him, even before he ever existed. Jesus was a planned protype of GOD’S intended purpose,  before he ever came into his existence, Jesus fullwell understood that, and when he had finished those prophetic things written about  him and the works he was given too, he understood also the glory he was to recieve,  a glory planned for him before GOD ever created anything including him.   I can say the same thing about the Glory I had (pastense)  with God before the world ever existed too, so can you.  It is a predestined GLORY.

    Is that not what scriptures says,?,   based on what? Scripture,  …  “what is man that you visite him, that so kind to him you should be,  you have made him a little lower the the Angels , you have ( past tense) crowned (past tense)  him with GLORY and HONOR,  and have put “ALL”  things under his feet. AND  going on what else does it say about us (mankind) , “we do not “Yet” see all thing put under his (mankind’s) feet, but what do we see? …We see Jesus Christ who,  like us,  was made a little lower then the ANGELS, FOR THE TASTING OF DEATH, JUST LIKE US, who is  (NOW) crowned with Glory and Honor, and all thinges under his feet. 

    So Jesus can say,  indeed , he had that Glory already with the Father and SO CAN WE.   But he “now” has received it, we haven’t, ” yet”.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

     

    April 26, 2020 at 7:11 am#863388
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Lu and All,

    Genesis 1:27 So God created man (ADAM/HUMAN BEING) in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    Jesus Christ is NOT God, but exists in the image of God. 

    And most certainly Jesus Christ is said to be an ADAM/HUMAN BEING

    1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by MAN (ANTHROPOS/HUMAN BEING) came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

    April 26, 2020 at 7:59 am#863389
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  The Father and the Son do nothing apart from each other.

    Mike:  But now YOU are also claiming that the Most High God would have no power to do anything if not for His Son?  Are you serious?

    LU:  Nope, not what I said.

    Phew! That’s good to know.  So then you agree that the Father has power to do anything He wants, with or without the Son… while the Son has only the power and authority given to him by his and our God, Jehovah, right?

     

     

     

    April 26, 2020 at 8:08 am#863391
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  Okay, but I want to know if the original One consisted of two individual entities.  You used the word “their”, which made me think you believe there were two sentient minds in the original One.  Is that what you think?  Or was the original One a single entity/mind?

    LU:  Oh who can fathom…from the One mind came both. Jesus is the wisdom of God.

    Mike:  Wait a minute… are you saying that the cell splitting scenario you’re pushing doesn’t stand up to scrutiny?

    LU:  No, I’m not saying that.

    So then please explain the rest of my post.  You said above that both came from the One mind, right?  So here are the options as I see it…

    1.  Father and Son currently share the same mind they shared when they were “The One”.
    2.  Father and Son now have two minds (since they are now two instead of one), but both minds are identical.
    3.   The One was an entity in and of itself, and when it split it created both the Father’s mind and the Son’s mind as separate minds.

    What say you?

    April 26, 2020 at 8:11 am#863392
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  I’m still wanting to know about the prayer in Acts 4…

    LU:  I answered that soon after you asked. Go look for it, I’ll wait.

    But you didn’t actually answer it.  You veered back off into this cell splitting thing, and so I realized that I’d have to totally dismantle that scenario in order to get back to discussing what the SCRIPTURES actually teach us.  Now that it has been dismantled, let’s do get back to scripture, please.

    Kathi, who did the apostles pray to in Acts 4?  What is his name?

    April 26, 2020 at 8:26 am#863393
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    Jesus is divino human

    No man can speak like Him

    even with all the power of the Holy Spirit

     

    read

     

     I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
    [15] As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
    [16] And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
    [17] Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
    [18] No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

     

    April 26, 2020 at 8:27 am#863394
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: Mike, I understand God’s prophecies to be of His purpose declared from the beginning, so that makes the prophecy of Psalms 8 God’s word from the beginning, and in that word you have a MAN who God gives glory and honor to. The Man Jesus knew this glory that was from the beginning that was of God for the Son of Man. In John 17 the Son of Man Jesus is asking for that glory, showing his faith in God’s word.

    Hi Jodi, thanks for the very coherent answer.   This is very similar to the explanation Gene has given many times…

    Gene:  …the Glory that Jesus had before the world was ever created,  was what God had planned for him, even before he ever existed.

    So although the scripture itself has the living entity Jesus of Nazareth asking for the return of glory “I kept on having…before the world began“, you and Gene think that wording can reasonably mean, “please give me the glory that you’ve had planned for me since before I, or the world itself, was created“?

    Please confirm for me that you think “the glory I had” is a phrase someone would say to convey “the glory you’ve had planned for me“, and we can move on from John 17:5.

     

     

     

    April 26, 2020 at 8:40 am#863395
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  …you have made him a little lower the the Angels, you have ( past tense) crowned (past tense)  him with GLORY and HONOR,  and have put “ALL”  things under his feet.

    David was speaking about things that had already happened, therefore the past tense.  David also went on to list some of the “all things” that God had already (past tense) put under mankind’s feet.  Things like sheep, oxen, and beasts of the field.  But many other writers have talked about a coming glory that God has in store for those who love Him, right?  Not one of them ever refers to that coming glory as a glory THEY HAD, either with or from God before the word began.

    On a side note, David said “a little lower than the gods“, not the “angels”.  Why?  Because there are tons of gods, but only one Most High God OF all the other gods.  That’s important to know if you are seeking scriptural truth.

    Cheers.

    April 26, 2020 at 8:43 am#863396
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

    Jesus didn’t say “I” or “we” created them, he spoke of his God and our God creating them male and female.

    👍👍👍👏👏👏

     

    April 26, 2020 at 9:28 am#863398
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    First let me say,  I make points to you and give you scripture that I want you to discuss and time and time again you just ignore and revert to another passage.

    YOU:

    Jodi

    Jesus is divino human

    No man can speak like Him

    even with all the power of the Holy Spirit

    ME: John 3 tells you that “he who speaks the word of God does so because he received the Spirit not by measure” (John 3)

    Jesus quotes Isaiah 61 which was a promise made unto the son of Jesse. Jesus says that the Spirit is upon him, an anointing, where he is sent out to PREACH God’s word.

    So yes Berean, NO MAN can speak like him, BECAUSE NO MAN but him was begotten of God’s Spirit without measure.

    Not only did the Spirit and powers within descend upon Jesus at the river Jordan in order for him TO SPEAK God’s word, he was also anointed and sent to set captives at liberty through dying on the cross.

    He lays down his life so that he may take life up again for all of mankind Jews and Gentiles. God ordained this man giving him the power to judge all men and reward the faithful with eternal life. This man does not judge through his own eyes and ears but through the Spirit of God that is upon him, just as was prophesied unto the son of Jesse.

     

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