Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

This topic has 25,950 replies, 116 voices, and was last updated 2 hours, 59 minutes ago by Berean.

Viewing 20 posts - 19,981 through 20,000 (of 25,951 total)

←1 2 3…9991,0001,001…1,296 1,297 1,298 →

Author
Posts
April 7, 2020 at 5:43 pm#862659
Proclaimer
Participant
If God became a man, then why did the Word that was with God become flesh. It would just need to say that God became flesh and God became a man. But the Word became flesh. Jesus Christ came in the flesh.
April 7, 2020 at 6:31 pm#862660
Proclaimer
Participant
Not quite, t8,
Rev 17:14 “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”
He IS Lord of lords AND King of kings.
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
He was made Lord.
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
There is actually one ultimate Lord and he is obviously above all lords as there are many lords.
there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Again, there is one ultimate Lord.
But I hear you say. Isn’t God a lord as you quoted in Deuteronomy. He is the highest God, thus of the many so-called gods, there is one LORD God who is over all, in all, and through all. So he is the one called God in these verses, not Jesus. Jesus Christ is Lord. Being
I will address Jesus being the King in another post.
April 7, 2020 at 7:10 pm#862661
Proclaimer
Participant
Now that you can see that, does it make a difference…it says that the Lamb IS Lord of lords, it doesn’t say the Lamb comes in the name of the Lord of lords?
Correct. Even though we know he does come in the name of the LORD, he doesn’t come in the name of the Lord of lords. Thus there is a difference as I think you see.
LORD is YHWH and Lord is kurios if I remember rightly. And they are different words. Old and New Testament too.
So comparing Deut 10:17 to the New Testament can be tricky. Just because the same word is being used, remember that the languages and the cultures are different.
For Jehovah your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, and the terrible, who regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward.
With a New Testament understanding we first know that Jesus is the messiah and Lord whereas Duet doesn’t show us that. And of course God is the God of gods and in the context of not being told about the Lord Jesus Christ, of course he would technically be the Lord of Lords too.
But God made Jesus both Lord and Christ and we know that God is greater than Lord because being Lord was appointed by God.

April 7, 2020 at 7:37 pm#862662
Proclaimer
Participant
Context is everything sometimes
Jesus of course is the most high King. As the sons of God will become or are kings and priests. And given that the kings of the earth are still subject to God, it stands to reason that Jesus is king and the highest king, but with one exception, he is not king over God.
Yes, you can technically say that God is a king too. But God is much more than a king and obviously he is above Jesus who is the the Ruler of Kings on Earth. So if we include the Father, then yes he is the most high King. When the focus is Jesus, then he is the king of kings.
In short, there is one God the father and one Lord the Lord Jesus Christ. If I even had a creed this would be it. Paul clearly teaches this and I believe it too and so I am one of the referred ‘US’ because it is what I truly believe. Paul was probably not addressing you or others who do not believe this. Correct me if I am wrong about that, but you seem to teach against this.
for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ,
I would like to conclude with this. Context is everything. God aside, Jesus was appointed as the king above all kings and the Lord above all lords. With one exception that we do not have to stress every single time. He is not God or King or Lord above his Father. So if we include God too, then the Most High of all is the Father as he is above the son. He would technically speaking in that context be the king of kings and Lord of lords. God is also the Father of Spirits despite angels being spirits and angels having chiefs and perhaps a most high angel or chief archangel.
When we see what looks like a conflict all we need to do is look at the context. Is the focus God, is it Jesus, is it an angel, is it Satan who is also a god. Context is everything.
I will conclude with this. I could say I am the president. And I might say I am the most powerful president. But what if the context was a university? So even if I was the president of presidents in a particular learning institution, or leader of all presidents in a group of learning institutions, it wouldn’t negate that Trump was the president of the US and it wouldn’t also make me Trump or Trump me because we had the same title.
Context is everything sometimes and many take Bible verses out of context to suit their own needs.
April 8, 2020 at 2:26 am#862667
GeneBalthrop
Participant
T8……I agree with you on this, Jesus is not God the Father or a God at all, he is a Son of God, being a human being and the first to be resurected from the grave of “many” brethern. The biggest problem LU has is she doesn’t understand there is a big difference in the upper case words LORD, and the lower case lord, the Hebrew word for LORD is (adonai) or (yehovah)) meaning ALMIGHTY GOD, and the word for lord is (adoni) meaning a “human” ruler or master of some kind.
Psa 110:1…..The LORD (adonai) which is a proper name for GOD “ONLY”, said unto my Lord (adoni) which is a human ruler or master, Sit you at my right hand, untill I make your enemies your footstool.
If LU and others really understood that they would not be so likely to commit IDOLATRY.
T8 well at least we do agree on this and I know Jodi and I think Mike does also.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene

April 8, 2020 at 3:17 am#862668
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean,
So we are back to Philippians 2.
Philippians 2 IS TALKING ABOUT CHRIST JESUS, the Son of Man said to have been ANOINTED with the full measure and power of YHWH’s Spirit SENT out into the world by YHWH/thus sent FROM HEAVEN, to be as YHWH by performing all of YHWH’s WILL and speaking all of YHWH’s words.
THIS CHRIST JESUS was he who was in the FORM of YHWH, where like YHWH he was unable to sin, but unlike YHWH being of the seed of Abraham he was a HUMAN like all HUMAN’s able to be tempted and able to DIE.
Let this MIND be in you that was also IN CHRIST.
Paul was telling those anointed with God’s Spirit also to be like minded with CHRIST JESUS, the Son of Man anointed. Paul was NOT asking people to be like minded with a god Son from heaven.
People were given great powers of the Spirit Berean, and like Jesus they could be tempted to use them for their own VAIN GLORY, for their own purpose, and not for the sake of others and not according to the will of God. They needed to be of the SAME MIND as CHRIST JESUS, a humble servant.
A human child was given the name JESUS, and JESUS was ANOINTED (CHRIO) by God making him into the ANOINTED (CHRISTOS).
Philippians 2 is talking about this CHRIST JESUS being in the FORM of God.
This Son of Man will return IN his Father’s GLORY, where we will see him in the FORM of God again, he will once again be as YHWH doing all of YHWH’s will. The man ordained by God to judge the quick and the dead, not by his own eyes and ears.

April 8, 2020 at 3:33 am#862670
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean,
Yes how perfect, Psalms 8 is of Genesis and it is A DIRECT PROPHECY of JESUS who is the Last ADAM. The first Adam brought sin and death and the Last Adam brings righteousness and life, just as YHWH purposed before the world began. Jesus brings righteousness and life, BECAUSE of the glory of YHWH’s Spirit dwelling within a man, as he could do nothing of himself.
God made man in his own image and gave mankind dominion overall the earth, and we are given God’s purpose for His creation, He made Adam/humans not in vain, but had a plan from the beginning to give mankind eternal life, where they would live upon the earth walking in all God’s ways, living in His image, as God will be ALL IN each one of us as He is with Christ Jesus, He gives us a heart of FLESH and gives His Spirit to dwell therein for all eternity.
As we are told in Isaiah 53, BECAUSE a man goes to the cross and sheds his blood for the salvation of others YHWH gives him a portion with the great, where he DIVIDES it with the strong. We are likewise told that as Christ is an heir of God we are heirs of God, JOINT HEIRS with Christ Jesus.
Jesus is a king of kings and a lord of lords, those kings and lords have dominion as well. Man has eternal dominion over the earth fulfilling God’s very intention from the beginning. This time mankind’s dominion over the earth will be with peace, harmony, and love, for all the earth will be filled with the knowledge of YHWH.
April 8, 2020 at 3:40 am#862671
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean,
You need to keep this straight. Jesus was and is a human being according to many direct scriptures.
So ask your self, how was the human being who Jesus is said to be, like humans, like his FELLOW BRETHREN?
He could be tempted and he could die.
How was the human Jesus in the form of God, UNLIKE other humans, unlike his FELLOW BRETHREN?
He was the only mortal man begotton by God receiving the fullness and power of God’s Spirit where he could not sin.
April 8, 2020 at 3:59 am#862672
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean,
YOU:
HEBREWS 1 :4 …..DIVINITY OF CHRIST HIGHER THAN ANGELS
[4] Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
ME: WHY don’t you KEEP reading the passage Berean??????????
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
He who is so much better than the angels, IS the son of David, who is YHWH’s Son according to the Spirit, an eternal Son upon his resurrection from the dead where he received the promised Holy Spirit.
This Son appeared to many on earth and taught of himself according to OT prophecies, revealing what prophecies had already been fulfilled and that which was left to fulfill. When this Son of Man returns again in his Father’s glory all will worship/give him reverence BECAUSE he is the human who is our mediator to the One True God, because he is the man appointed by God to judge the quick and the dead. Because as Isaiah 22 tells us he is to be a FATHER over the inhabitants of Jerusalem and the house of David, set up on a throne according to the flesh as a king over all the other kings of the earth.

April 8, 2020 at 4:13 am#862673
Berean
Participant
Hi Jodi

you
How was the human Jesus in the form of God, UNLIKE other humans, unlike his FELLOW BRETHREN?
He was the only mortal man begotton by God receiving the fullness and power of God’s Spirit where he could not sin.
Me
You try to divinize (in your own way) the man Jesus, but I am not fooled, you preach A HERESY.

April 8, 2020 at 4:35 am#862674
Berean
Participant
Jodi
Philippians 2 IS TALKING ABOUT CHRIST JESUS, the Son of Man said to have been ANOINTED with the full measure and power of YHWH’s Spirit SENT out into the world by YHWH/thus sent FROM HEAVEN, to be as YHWH by performing all of YHWH’s WILL and speaking all of YHWH’s words.
Me
you said …. the Son of Man…..thus sent FROM HEAVEN, to be as YHWH
PROBLEM

THE TRUTH IS THAT THE DIVINE SON OF GOD CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN…
HE TOOK UPON HIS DIVINITY OUR HUMANITY.
AND HE LIVED IN HARMONY WITH THE WILL OF HIS FATHER GOD.
JODI STOPS TWISTING GOD’S WORD;

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
You have no right to bend that part and many others. It’s a disgrace.

April 8, 2020 at 5:38 am#862677
Berean
Participant
Who, being in the form of God, ….
And the WORD WAS GOD

April 8, 2020 at 5:45 am#862678
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean,
Psalm 130:7 Let Israel hope in the LORD: for with the LORD there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.
Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
With the LORD there is eternal life, and eternal life was the Word from the beginning promised unto us, and God from the beginning was himself of eternal life.
As the WORD from the beginning was a promise of eternal life, the WORD was also from the beginning a promise that a man would bring forth the eternal life. These WORDS are ONE and the same WORD and they equate to the Gospel of God, the good news, the glad tidings.
THE ABOVE IS TRUE, you want to tell me it’s not Berean?
Would not all things consist, wouldn’t all things that were made be created by reason of this WORD and FOR this WORD?
Do you see how it fits perfectly with John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (eternal life), and the Word (eternal life) was with God, and the Word (eternal life) was God. 2 He (the man who brings eternal life) was in the beginning with God.3 All things were made through him (the man who brings us eternal life); and without him (the man who brings eternal life) was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
The LIGHT is of prophecy concerning a man, the son of Jesse anointed with the fullness of the Spirit, which John 1 speaks of later in this chapter.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him (the son of man who brings eternal life, where by reason of him God made all things), and the world knew him not. 11 He (the man of the tribe of Judah) came unto his own, and his own received him not.
April 8, 2020 at 5:53 am#862680
Lightenup
Participant
t8
You asked: If God became a man, then why did the Word that was with God become flesh. It would just need to say that God became flesh and God became a man. But the Word became flesh. Jesus Christ came in the flesh.
It tells us tha the Word that was with God was God. Seventeen verses later that God that was with God is the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, the unseen God.
YHWH was seen, there is YHWH who is the unseen God and there is YHWH who is the only begotten God and that one is seen. They are one YHWH, one God in the fullest sense since neither of them are independant of the other but rather interdependent with each other.manifested in two persons in the relationship of father and son.
I think that a problem some people have is they think of a father and son from the sexual reproductive process. Not enough consideration is given to the other way there can be a parent/offspring relationship…asexually. If people thought it through as an asexual reproductive relationship, it is easy to understand how, from one eternal living source, through the process of asexual reproduction, two identical types of the original (before the reproductive process) would be manifested. Each equally carry the eternal quality and each equally interdependent to each other, not as partners but as father and son.
You also do not seem to understand that when we see YHWH called the Lord of lords in Deuteronomy, the first “Lord” is not written in all caps as it would be if it was meaning YHWH.
So, suffice it to say, because you do not appear to have thought through those things, the rest of your posts here on the subject of the deity of Christ are based on sand, imo. Give the asexual reproduction of an eternal living entity some deep thought and I believe you will understand how one YHWH would be manifested into both a father and a son, both with eternal nature if there truly exists an only begotten Son of God, a son in the absolute highest sense.
I think we both can agree that the only begotten Son did not come as a result of sexual reproduction. That leaves asexual reproduction as the only other possibility I am aware of.
April 8, 2020 at 5:57 am#862681
Lightenup
Participant
@admin
My last post did that strange disappearing act and while it is fresh on my mind, I will tell you what happened:
I wrote the post, hit “submit”, wanted to edit it slightly, hit “edit”, edited it, hit “submit,” then the post did not show up on the thread but did show up on my profile in the unedited version. You can probably go to my profile and see the two very similar posts. I then copied my post from my profile section, pasted it over here, made my corrections, then hit “submit” and it went through. I hope that helps you figure this out.
April 8, 2020 at 6:03 am#862682
Jodi
Participant
Berean,
Being in the FORM of God is NOT being GOD.
Jesus is NOT God.
Jesus’s God and Father IS our God and Father. He is an heir of God and we are promised to be heirs with God, being JOINT heirs with Jesus.
So many scriptures Berean you just throw out the window, treating God’s word like total vanity when it doesn’t fit your imagination.
4 biblical facts for you,
A HUMAN was of God’s word from the beginning promised to come and bring salvation.
This HUMAN came and could do nothing of himself.
A HUMAN is promised to come and sit on his father David’s throne ACCORDING to the flesh, where he is a Son of God according to the Spirit.
This human is a firstborn Son of many brethren.

April 8, 2020 at 6:07 am#862683
Berean
Participant
[3] All things were made by him;

ALL THE BIBLE’S TRANSLATION
GIVES BY HIM

Even if you don’t agree with the “by,”
There’s the “him”
Him means a person
Now another point you still haven’t answered.
COLOSSIANS 1
For in him were created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, thrones, dominions, powers. All things were created by him and for him.
LET’S LOOK AT THIS LAST PART OF THE VERSION
All things were created by him and for him.
If you don’t agree with the “by,
and you put “for”
This gives
Everything was created for him and by him.
It’s not right, it’s not Paul’s habit to make useless repetitions.
FOR HIM AND FOR HIM…
IN TRUTH THE RIGHT TRANSLATION
IS THAT ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM AND FOR HIM
April 8, 2020 at 6:51 am#862684
Lightenup
Participant
Mike,
You said: I’m sure you also know of other passages where Jehovah is saying something like, “I will do this and that”, and ends with “Jehovah has spoken it, and it will be done”. Doesn’t mean there are two Jehovahs. Besides, we already know that our Lord’s name is Jesus, and his and our God’s name is Jehovah, right?
There is one Jehovah manifested in two persons. We know our Lord’s name is Lord of lords, so is Jehovah’s.
While a passage with a speaker referring to themselves in the first and third persons is possible, it is not the default understanding. You have to bring a filter to understand it in a way other than the default.
Jesus does speak of being the one sent by God and happy that his disciples know that He was sent by God. Jesus is also the only begotten Son with the eternal nature of God, and Jesus is called Lord and also Jehovah as seen at times. See Gen 18 and tell me how that “LORD “is the unseen God speaking with Abraham.
April 8, 2020 at 6:54 am#862685
Lightenup
Participant
Mike,
Kathi: They are not the same cell, they are two distinct yet identical cells.
Mike: I understand what you’re saying. Do you understand that you’re saying that the Father is a combo of Father and Son while the Son is an IDENTICAL combo of Father and Son? Because that is what you’re saying, right? Is that what you believe?
No, I am saying that the FO is identical in nature to the SO, and they are each identical in nature to the OO. The FO and the SO would only be a combo of parent/offspring if they were undergoing asexual reproduction.
April 8, 2020 at 8:01 am#862688
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean,
JESUS IS not God, nor is he called The Word of God because he pre-existed.
Jesus is a human of the offspring of David who is called The Word of God in Revelation for 3 VERY GOOD REASONS, 1) in him is God’s word made true in the flesh many times over, 2) he is God’s prophet raised up from among brethren where God gives him HIS WORDS from out of HIS MOUTH to then speak to us, 3) his work is to fulfill God’s WORD that God spoke before the world even began.
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; BECAUSE he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof…9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God..16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath MADE that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Psalms 89:20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: 21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him. 22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. 23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him. 24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. 25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers. 26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. 27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. 29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
Author
Posts

Viewing 20 posts - 19,981 through 20,000 (of 25,951 total)

←1 2 3…9991,0001,001…1,296 1,297 1,298 →

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

Context is everything sometimes

Who, being in the form of God, ….

And the WORD WAS GOD

[3] All things were made by him;

Recent Replies

Forums

Forum Topics

POPULAR WRITINGS

Study Tools

ABOUT THIS SITE

Navigation

Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

Context is everything sometimes

Who, being in the form of God, ….

And the WORD WAS GOD

[3] All things were made by him;

Recent Replies

Forums

Forum Topics

POPULAR WRITINGS

Study Tools

ABOUT THIS SITE

TOPICS

Navigation

Log in with your credentials

Forgot your details?

Create Account