Hi MikeBoll64, (how are you doing)

I’m blessed and doing well, Ed. How about yourself?

1. God didn’t put the world to come in subjugation to the Angels in Heb.2:5, but then
HE DID put the world to come in subjugation to Michael the Archangel (*in Heb.2:8* – NOT ! ).

Try the word “messengers”, and see what you come up with.

2. God say…

[Read more]

Nick said:

Hi MB,

Which verse in the YLT specifically calls Jesus a MESSENGER and which other verses confirm it?

Or is this something you see by INFERENCE and it is your OPINION?

Do you doubt that Jesus was a messenger of God, Nick? If yes, then I will produce the scripture you ask for. If not, your question is moot.

Hi MB,

So Jesus was less than the messengers and then was made greater than them.heb1-3

But you still say he is one of them?

Yes, Jesus was made a little lower than the other messengers for a while. God has now exalted him to the highest place, making him greater than the other messengers.

Gene said:

HEBREWS SAYS “GOD HAS NOT PUT IN SUBJECTION THE WORLD TO COME UNTO ANGELS”. MAKING A CONCLUSION TO THE EXCLUSION OF OTHER COUNTRIDICTING SCRIPTURES IS NOT GOOD FORM.

Hebrews 2:5 Young’s Literal Translation
For not to messengers did He subject the coming world, concerning which we speak…

Now what does it mean? Does it mean men…[Read more]

T8 said:

So it seems messengers are angels whether they are man, son of God, cherub, or seraph. Therefore it seems entirely possible (but not conclusive) in this context that Jesus could have been the Angel of the LORD, as he is the messenger of the LORD and the Word of God.

Both the Hebrew and Greek words mean “messenger”. That’s it -…[Read more]

What does the bible teach? Was Jesus
(1)God, (2)a god, (3)an Angel, (4)merely a man, or (5)the Son of God?

Hi Everyone,

1) God
2) a god
3) an Angel
4) merely a man
5) the Son of God

On the seven lessons thread (it seems) that attempting to claim #2 is really claiming #3 ‘an Angel’
And I don’t see how one can claim more than one of these at th…

[Read more]

t8?

God has set a trap. To state that Jesus is the firstborn of every creature, one would naturally think, Jesus was the first created even before Adam and Eve?
Yes, that is indeed the most logical understanding of the phrase. And not just created before Adam and Eve, but also before the angels and the universe and the earth.

This is the trap. This…[Read more]

1) Is Jesus the only begotten?

2) Is Jesus the only created?
1. NO.
2. NO.

Surely you’ll ask about my answer to #1, so I will explain what you apparently missed in my other posts. The Greek word “monogenes” is from the Greek word “monos”, meaning “alone, one, only”……. and the Greek word “ginomai”, meaning “generated, came into existence,…[Read more]

Simply put, Adam and Eve negate the second part and when we consider God and the Angels we also know they are living and not the offspring of Eve right? So the latter part leads to a problem.
I know Lightenup started a thread that discussed whether Jesus was “begotten” or “created”…….. but I don’t remember us ever having an official debate on…[Read more]

John 1:14 is the one I mentioned.
So then you understand 1:14 as, The Word qualities of a person made flesh……… ?

(All I did was sub the word “was” with your definition “qualities of a person”.)

Wakeup,

My understanding takes all of the scriptures into account, and doesn’t rely on one shred of nonsense. You cannot say the same about your understanding. You go ahead and worship the creation if you want. I will worship the same one that creation himself worshipped.

And to which word “was” would you like to apply that definition? Which verse are you talking about?

But if it said that the definition of a man was that who was created through Adam and that all who were not created through Adam are not man, then by that definition, Adam would not be a man
Eve is called in scripture “the mother of all living”, right? (Gen 3:20) So let’s try it this way:

All human beings came into existence through Eve.…[Read more]

The most reasonable and sensible way Philo’s writings can be understood as allegorical.
Hogwash. He thought of the logos as a lesser god, Kerwin. He thought of the logos as God’s first Son, who was superior to the angels.

In short, he apparently understood it the most logical way it could be understood from John 1 and many, many other s…[Read more]

We both agree that Jesus Christ was the word after the word was given the characteristics of a person but we disagree that the word was a person before Jesus Christ originated in his mother’s womb.
Not quite, Kerwin. I don’t believe the Word was “given the characteristics of a person”, because that lame nonsense isn’t stated anywhere in s…[Read more]

We have two different perceptions here.

Very far apart from each other.There is a deep gulf in between.

Believer1. The Word of God is just words spoken by some creature God created.
Hi Wakeup,

You are confused about what I believe. I don’t believe the Word of God is words spoken by a creature. I believe the Word of God is called the Word of…[Read more]

Also, you absolutely do not believe the following:

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Hi t8,

I can see that I’m going to have to go point at a time here. I will once again explain to you that the Greek word translated as “made” in the version you quoted above is “ginomai”. And “ginomai” means: to…[Read more]

Hi Mike,

Heb 11:3 clearly says “The Word” created the worlds,
and also “The Word” cannot possibly be Jesus. It is a shame
that YOU cannot see that this is what this verse *IS* really saying.

Hi Ed,

Hebrews 11:3 NKJV ©
By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of…[Read more]

So a sacrificial demigod? Superior to the angels? A second, lesser god? The first begotten Son of God? Sounds to me like Philo was right on the money, Kerwin.

It is known Philo used philosophical allegory in his writing and referring to a non-person as a person is one thing that can be done when using it.
So the fact that Philo, on occasion,…[Read more]