Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 20 2012,20:56)Quote (Lightenup @ July 19 2012,23:37)And you compare the bowing to Jesus as what is done to men?Jesus was still a man when the disciples supposedly “worshipped” him, Kathi.  All knees in heaven and earth were not yet bowing to him because his God and our God hadn't yet exalted him and GIVEN him the name…[Read more]

Mike,Read the difference if the comma is removed:John 1:18 NIV18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.John 1:18 NIV18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

John 1:1 calls the Word 'theos' who is with the theos and so it is very likely that only 17 verses later, 'theos' is the intended word who is in the bosom of the Father, not to mention that it is in the earliest manuscripts.

Mike,Quote They must avoid this part of the word “monogenes”, because they, being Trinitarians, don't like the implication that their God#2 was “begotten”.  The Trinitarian creeds mention that the Son was 'begotten before the ages' so I don't think what you said is a true reflection of the Trinitarians. You really don't have a grasp on what that…[Read more]

t8,I'm not saying the Father and Son are are one being. They are two. Also, their original nature establishes the Father and the Son as divine and deity. Acquiring divine nature does not establish one as divine AND deity. I have mentioned that several times and you never acknowledge that.Please do not use the term binity when referring to what I…[Read more]

Pierre,Do you want a scripture that proves that Jehovah is still both God of gods and Lord of lords? You don't believe that Jehovah is still both, is that right?

Thanks Pierre for confirming that you believe the delusion that Jehovah is no longer the Lord of lords in the NT.The truth is that Jehovah is still the God of gods and the Lord of lords and that Jesus is that Lord of lords. As a babe in a manger, He was Lord. He didn't become Lord when He became the King of the throne of David…He was Lord when…[Read more]

Quote Remember Kathi is quoting you in the section that is called DELUTIONS.It is called “Delusions” Pierre.

Scriptural fact: In the OT, Jehovah is the God of gods and Lord of lords.Delusion: In the NT, Jehovah is only the God of gods and not the Lord of lords.

Mike,you asked:Quote Kathi, why is it that you can easily see the difference between Jesus and his servants, but not between God and His servant Jesus? Because Jesus' servants didn't get credit for creation (but Jesus and God do), salvation of all mankind (but Jesus and God do), aren't called the 'First and the Last,' (but Jesus and God are) raise…[Read more]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 20 2012,21:07)Quote (Lightenup @ July 19 2012,23:29)“If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me………………..”Jesus would never demand worship. It is the Father that glorifies Him.John 12:28 Father, glorify your name!” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glori…[Read more]

Mike,you asked:Quote 1. How about those same verses in the translation I quoted? Do any of them describe people worshipping Jesus? YES or NO?Yes!Quote 2. Does the word “proskuneo” HAVE TO BE translated as “worship”? Or is it up the the translator?Whether it is translated as obeisance or worship, it is still given in a religious sense as one…[Read more]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 17 2012,16:43)Quote (Lightenup @ July 16 2012,22:21)Mike,Thank you for admitting:YES Kathi.  The translations you posted describe people worshipping Jesus. So, we don't have to read this from you again:Quote No where in scripture is Jesus ever worshiped.Wow.  That's pretty sneaky, don't you think, Kathi?I seem to recall t…[Read more]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 17 2012,11:13)Dear sweet Kathi:) I have come to the conclusion that there is no way to out argue or convince you that you are wrong and the reason is simple you are arguing from inference and that is why there are so many Christian denominations that have such a wide range of beliefs. We wouldn't be having this…[Read more]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 17 2012,21:54)Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,08:43)Quote (Lightenup @ July 16 2012,22:21)Mike,Thank you for admitting:YES Kathi.  The translations you posted describe people worshipping Jesus. So, we don't have to read this from you again:Quote No where in scripture is Jesus ever worshiped.Wow.  That's pretty sneaky, d…[Read more]

Mikeyou said:Quote And to answer your question, YES, the worship/obeisance done to Daniel, King David, and many others in scripture is equal to the worship/obeisance done to Jesus.  And none of that worship/obeisance should be confused with the worship given to our God AS our God.EVERY knee bows to Jesus IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH AND UNDER THE…[Read more]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 17 2012,10:55)Quote (Lightenup @ July 17 2012,16:57)BD,You said:Quote I never s that Jesus wasn't worshipped by some nor do the scriptures say the disciples worshipped Jesus so where did you get that from? Jesus told his disciples who to Worship and it wasn't him he told to Worship. I'm not sure what the first part of…[Read more]

While I wait for your response to that last post, I will begin to address your questions.There are two sides to a coin, agreed? When the coin is laying on the table, you see only one side. What it seems to me is that what you are doing is insisting that there is only one side to the coin while I am insisting that there are two. I am trying to show…[Read more]

Well, if we do that then either one of us may come up with a whole line of more questions after a 'lull' in the conversation. I think that having another thread for comments to our discussion would be better. It would make it a lot easier for us to quote each other's thoughts, for me anyway.

This is great t8, I welcome the opportunity but I think that it would be easier to stick to us answering each other's questions if it were a closed discussion. Would you mind limiting it to a discussion just between the two of us? It would be much easier for us to keep a flow going in the discussion. There can be another thread for a discussion…[Read more]