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Quote (david @ Mar. 21 2006,13:26) Jamie, you have just beautifully illustrated one of the reasons why Eliyah was removed.
He would often speak as you do, with the same tone, and completely disregard the subject at hand, and jump to the message he repeatedly tried to get across.Is there anyone anywhere who would like to discuss the subject of THIS thread, and without yelling?
david
Jamie sounded awfully like Eliyah just then. I wonder if Jamie is a friend of Eliyah's or Eliyah himself?That is impossibly Mr.T8 heaven because your forum would not accept two different names on the same IP number and again you make me laugh with your flatery huh huh.
Jamie
Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 21 2006,04:14) Quote (david @ Mar. 21 2006,02:47) Right, as you say, 'there is no one on earth that knows it all.' But I would like to discuss WHAT THE BIBLE actually says and how the words often translated “worship” are actually used in the Bible. I understand the uselessness of some of these discussions. If nothing else, it helps me to learn and remember and helps me to understand how others think.
A lot of this thread centers around the trinity doctrine. The belief that Jesus was worshiped or that we are to worship Jesus is one of the false legs that this belief stands upon.
It seems most people just look at their Bibles and find the word “worship” but don't know what the words that were thus translated actually mean. And they defend it to their death.As far as disputes about words, if you are referring to the word “worship,” that is exactly what this thread is about, as far as I can tell. If people ignore what the words are that were translated as “worship” or don't know the many meanings of those words that were translated worship, and the use of those words with reference to people–if they simply close their eyes and minds and say: 'My Bible says Jesus should be worshiped,' this would be a mistake.
Notice that we've gone through a couple of pages without actually discussing anything that has to do with worship.
david.
Jesus said to pray to our Father which art in heaven. I don't remember reading anywhere that the first century saints prayed to Jesus.I answered the question about worship with scripture.
2Pe 1:20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.1Ti 6:4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for QUARRELS ABOUT WORDS, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions,
1Ti 6:4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for QUARRELS ABOUT WORDS, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions,
1Ti 6:11 But as for you, O man of God, flee these things. Pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness.Are you carried along with the Holy Spirit telling you to argue about the “word” worship when the answer is what Jesus said “it's that simple”.
Scripture answers scripture!
Hi Ken,I do believe that worship is an important topic as God undoubtedly takes it seriously, thus any contribution that would help us all understand what the Lord requires of us should be welcome.
I haven't read David's previous posts on this so can't answer one way or the other, but I believe it is important to know what is intended by worship so we can give honor to whom honor is due, rightly.
my friends,
There are a few places off the top of my head where it does say that Jesus was worshipped.
Matthew 2:8, 11
Matthew 8:2
Matthew 9:18
Matthew 14:33
Matthew 15:25
Matthew 28:9
Matthew 28:17
Luke 24:52Now in Matthew 4:10, Jesus said, “Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve”.
So in this passage Jesus makes it clear that we are to serve and worship God and him only.
Now let's look at the greek word used in these passages for worship
4352 proskuneo pros-koo-neh'-o from 4314 and a probable derivative of 2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore):–worship. see GREEK for 4314 see GREEK for 2965
If I wanted to say I adore wife in greek, I would use the word
proskuneo, If I wanted to say I worship God, I would use the same word, proskuneo. The power to unlocking the truth of God's word is #1 being guided by the Spirit, and #2 is having an understanding of the original language and putting things into their right context.People showed their homage to Jesus, they adored him, but ONLY GOD IS TO BE WORSHIPPED AND REVERED.
Quote (david @ Mar. 21 2006,05:02) Quote Jesus said to pray to our Father which art in heaven. I don't remember reading anywhere that the first century saints prayed to Jesus. Quote Are you carried along with the Holy Spirit telling you to argue about the “word” worship when the answer is what Jesus said “it's that simple”. Kenrch, you stated a reason why you believe that Jesus was not worshiped: The holy ones didn't pray to him.
Fine, this is a good point.If you read my posts, you will see that I agree with you on this subject.
But perhaps you are right. The first concern of the person teaching the Bible should be the glory of God, not the promotion of his own doctrine.
So, let the glory be to God:
REVELATION 4:11
““You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.””
David,I'm sorry sometimes I do the quote thing instead of just reply.
My statement was not aimed at any one person.Sorry
Kenrch
Quote (david @ Mar. 20 2006,18:26) Is there anyone anywhere who would like to discuss the subject of THIS thread, and without yelling?
Yes, sure David. Actually I wrote a post about 18 months ago that had a lot of bearing on this subject, but have no idea which thread it's in. I'll try to find it, polish it up, and re-post it.David,
Did you know that the Watchtower taught that Jesus should be worshiped?http://www.catholicapologetics.net/jw_hebrews_16.htm
No disrespect but please take a look at the various scans.
God Bless
Scripture Seeker,
Yes, there are two references mentioned to Jesus being worshiped, one 60 years old, and one 110 years ago. Did you know that we also celebrated Christmas at one time. But when it is clearly shown that something is wrong, or filled with lies, we change. (See 3 wise men visiting “manger” below.) This shows that we are willing to let go of false ideas.Are you?
SCRIPTURE seeker,
The above site states:Quote Jesus said in Matthew 4:10 that you should worship (proskuneo) God only, yet He willing receives worship in Matt. 2:2; 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; and John 9:35-38. Just check any Bible other than the New World Translation and you can plainly see this.
I believe this is what we call circular reasoning. Jesus said to “worship” only God. Clearly, in this instance, that word is referring to worship, as there are many other cases in the Bible where doing obeisance, bowing down, or showing homage is not shown to be wrong. So Jesus himself said to worship God and to render sacred service to him alone.
So should those other scriptures mentioned (Matt. 2:2; 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; and John 9:35-38) use the English word “worship” with reference to someone else, Jesus? Well what did Jesus say? “Jesus said in Matthew 4:10 that you should worship (proskuneo) God only.”
So a contradiction arises. Luckily we have the mystery of the unexplainable trinity to solve that.
To a trinitarian who believes that Jesus is God, (as almost all Bible translators are) he will say that the Greek word should be translated as “worship” in all these places because Jesus is God, you say. And then, the circular reasoning begins, as you use the fact that Jesus is “worshiped” to prove that he is God.
And the site also says to check any other Bible to plainly see that they translate that word as “worship” with reference to Jesus in those places.
Well let’s look at one example of those scriptures, Scripture Seeker, that have the word “worship” with reference to Jesus despite “Jesus [saying] in Matthew 4:10 that you should worship (proskuneo) God only.”
MATTHEW 2:1-2
“After Jesus had been born in Beth́lehem of Judéa in the days of Herod the king, look! astrologers from eastern parts came to Jerusalem, saying: “Where is the one born king of the Jews? For we saw his star [when we were] in the east, and we have come to do him obeisance.””
MATTHEW 2:11
“And when they went into the house they saw the young child with Mary its mother, and, falling down, they did obeisance to it. They also opened their treasures and presented it with gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh.”
So, you believe that the magi (not “wise men,” not “kings”) but magi, or astrologers from the east who saw the star and were first led by it to Jerusalem where they came in contact with King Herod who wanted to kill the child went their to “worship” Jesus? Or did these astrologers merely go to do obeisance to the “one born king of the Jews”?
If you check the Bible, you’ll see that the word in question is often translated “obeisance” and not worship with reference to kings several times.
Although astrology is popular among many people today, the practice is strongly disapproved in the Bible. Would God have led to the newborn Jesus persons whose practices He condemned?
Matthew 2:1-16 shows that the star led the astrologers first to King Herod and then to Jesus and that Herod then sought to have Jesus killed. No mention is made that anyone other than the astrologers saw the “star.” After they left, Jehovah’s angel warned Joseph to flee to Egypt to safeguard the child. Was that “star” a sign from God or was it from someone who was seeking to have God’s Son destroyed?
According to the Bible, the so-called wise men were “from eastern parts,” and it was there that they had learned about Jesus’ birth. (Matthew 2:1, 2, 9) It must have taken a long time for these men to travel to Judea. When they eventually found Jesus, he was no longer a newly born babe in a stable. Instead, the men found Mary and “the young child” living in a house.—Matthew 2:11.
The visiting astrologers did not worship the true God. The Bible version La Nueva Biblia Latinoamérica (1989 Edition) states in a footnote: “The Magi were not kings, but fortune-tellers and priests of a pagan religion.” They came in line with their knowledge of the stars to which they were devoted. Had God wanted to guide them to the young child, they would have been led to the exact place without needing to go first to Jerusalem and to Herod’s palace. Later on, GOD DID INTERVENE to alter their course to protect the child.(As a side note: Notice that the Bible account does not say that they found the babe Jesus in a manger, as customarily depicted in Christmas art. When the astrologers arrived, Jesus and his parents were living in a “house.” [Check your Bible] As to Jesus’ age at that time, remember that, based on what Herod had learned from the astrologers, he decreed that all the boys in the district of Bethlehem two years of age and under were to be destroyed.–Matt. 2:1, 11, 16.)
Anyway, there is really no reason to believe that these pagan magi found Jesus to “worship” him. Yet, that is how most Bible’s translate that word in that place. Why? If we base our translation of that word to this one “born king of the Jews” to how it applies to kings elsewhere in the Bible, and if we understand that “Jesus said in Matthew 4:10 that you should worship (proskuneo) God only,” then we will understand that even though your Bible shows “He willing receives worship in Matt. 2:2; 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; and John 9:35-38,” this is a contradiction of his words. And it goes against what the magi would have been there to do.
David.
Thanks for your comments, I take your point.
But if it had taken them that long to travel to be directly under the star, surely they must have been more interested in what the star was pointing to. They would have been able to see the star from where they where, remember they where from the east and they had also seen the star in the east! It even appears that the star was moving and leading them Mat 2:9. They even call the star his star after asking Herod where the King is. Even if the wise men where magi, why would this stop them from worshipping Jesus? Especially since they knew he was a King.
Also the magi/wise men deluded Herod and went back going the other way
It was only after Herod realized he had been deluded by the wise men [magi] that he sort to kill all the children less than 2 years of age. Mat 2:16
God uses allsorts of people to fulfill his works, even a Harlot.Mat 2:12 And having received an answer in sleep that they should not return to Herod, they went back another way into their country.
Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
But lets look at the other times the word proskuneo is used with reference to the Christ, are the other verses contradictions?
Mat 14:33 Then they that were IN THE SHIP CAME AND WORSHIPPED HIM, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God. [This was after Jesus walked on the water and saved Peter from sinking because of his lack of faith]
Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and HELD HIM BY THE FEET, AND WORSHIPPED HIM.
[This is after Jesus had risen from the dead]Joh 9:38 And he said, LORD, I BELIEVE. AND HE WORSHIPPED HIM.
[This was only a few verses after Jesus was saying to be a worshipper of God]God even calls all his angels to worship Jesus!
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
How can these be contradictions, because immediately two verses down from the above verse we would have another contradiction.
Heb 1:8 BUT UNTO THE SON HE SAITH, THY THRONE, O GOD, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
We know there is only one God, all other Gods are either self proclaimed or man made. If the Father calls Jesus God then Jesus is truly God.
We are called to worship Jesus because he is God in the same essence. He was with God and is God.Remember what Jesus also said to the lawyer…
Mat 22:37 Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind.
Mat 22:38 THIS IS THE GREATEST AND THE FIRST COMMANDMENT.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.Do we break the first commandment of God when we do not love Jesus with all our heart soul and mind?
What was the first question Jesus asked the Pharisees after giving them the commandments?Mat 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, JESUS ASKED THEM,
Mat 22:42 Saying: What think you of Christ? Whose son is he? They say to him: David's.
Mat 22:43 HE SAITH TO THEM: How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying:Jesus answers his own question!
Mat 22:44 THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD: Sit on my right hand, until I make thy enemies thy footstool?
Mat 22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?Understandingly you can see this left them speechless.
Mat 22:46 And no man was able to answer him a word: neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
Interestingly out of the three times the commandments are given in the Gospels, two of them ask directly who they think the Messiah is [Mat 22:37 & Mark 12:35]and the other time asks us who our neighbor is [Luke 10.29] .
So David said “the Lord said to my Lord”, but what did God the Father Almighty call him again.
Heb 1:8 But to the Son: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of justice is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
If Father God Almighty calls his Son God, why shouldn’t we? Thomas does!
There is no contraction! Jesus is God in the Flesh the second person of the GODHEAD!Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD CORPOREALLY.
Even the 1984 revision of the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures acknowledges and calls it the Godship, I can show you scans of the bible if needed.
I believe that we break the greatest and first commandment if we do not worship Jesus, because Jesus shares the Godship. As I believe this, I wish to bring this to your attention with love and NO disrespect intended.
If Jesus was NOT to be worshipped the Holy Spirit would not have used the same word that is used to worship the Father. The word is truth and we should not change its meaning to suit our own beliefs.
When Jesus judges us, will he Judge us for worshiping him when the word of God tells us to?
If Jesus was only to receive praise, the word of God would have used the word for praise G1391.
But Jesus is God! He is called God, he is called Lord and he is called the Savior.
Jesus is the Savior he is worthy of all praise!Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, EVEN I, AM THE LORD; AND BESIDE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOR.As it says above God is even the Lord and there is no savior beside Him.
No savior beside him?Phi 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also WE LOOK FOR THE SAVIOR, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST:
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of THE GREAT GOD AND OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Tit 2:15 THESE THINGS SPEAK, AND EXHORT, AND REBUKE WITH ALL AUTHORITY. Let no man despise thee.God Bless
1Ti 3:16 And WITHOUT CONTROVERSY GREAT IS THE MYSTERY OF GODLINESS: GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, JUSTIFIED IN THE SPIRIT, seen of angels, PREACHED UNTO THE GENTILES, believed on in the world, RECEIVED UP INTO GLORY.
I'll begin with what I believe is your conclusion:
Quote If Jesus was NOT to be worshipped the Holy Spirit would not have used the same word that is used to worship the Father.
Well what word should have been used Scripture Seeker? Perhaps a word that meant: “obeisance,” or “paid homage,” would have been better if that was the case. Well guess what? THAT'S THE WORD THAT IS USED. The Greek word translated: “worship,” is the same that is also translated in these other ways. Obeisance, paid homage, worship, etc….same word in Greek.For example: This is the term used in the Greek Septuagint to describe what Abraham did, in harmony with the custom of the time, toward PEOPLE with whom he was doing business; at 1 Kings 1:23 in the Septuagint to describe the prophet Nathan’s action on approaching KING DAVID.
Yes, it can mean “worship.” But it definitely has more than one meaning, and we cannot ignore the other meanings.
To simply point to your Bible and say: My Bible has the word “worship” here, that proves it…proves nothing. I could do the same.
I quote Sammo's link from page 3 of the worship thread:There is a variety of meanings to that word.
Quote The meaning of the English word “worship” has changed since the 16th century, when according to the Oxford English dictionary, it meant, “To honour; to regard or treat with honour or respect. To salute, bow down to. To honour with gifts. To confer honour or dignity upon.” It could be used of any human lord, noble or magistrate. Vestiges of the old meaning are still seen in such things as calling certain English magistrates “your worship.” The KJV copied the word from Tyndale. Because the English meaning has now changed to limit the meaning to divine worship, MOST OF THE MODERN VERSIONS, EVEN WITH THEIR OBVIOUS TRINITARIAN BASIS, USE THE WORD WORSHIP MUCH MORE SPARINGLY ABOUT JESUS. The New English Bible for example never uses the word “worship” about Jesus, with the possible exception of Rev 5:14. The NIV, RSV and NASB cut the 14 instances down to about 7. In each instance where there is a parallel in another gospel, the parallel passages all say something like fell at his feet, fell down before him, or some other explanation that is in keeping with the definition above of. Most newer versions omit Luke 24:52 as being without manuscript authority, but either way it means the same as above. Even the heavily trinitarian paraphrase Living Bible translates Matt 14:33 as “sat there, awestruck,” instead of worshipped, although the use of proskuneo would indicate that they actually fell off their seats in awe. In the KJV, many of the occurrences of the “worship” of Jesus make it clear that the meaning of prostrating is the correct understanding, by including such phrases as 'fell down” (Matt 2:11), “held him by the feet” (Matt 28:9). [Capitilization added.]
Quote We should notice immediately that if we refer to any of the newer translations, such as for example the Revised Standard Version (RSV), New International Version (NIV) or New American Standard Bible (NASB) the number of incidents in which the word worship is used about Jesus drops from fourteen to about six. The New English Bible (NEB) has none.
WHY IS IT THAT NEWER BIBLES ARE USING THE WORD “WORSHIP” WITH REFERENCE TO JESUS LESS AND LESS?
Perhaps they're figuring out some of the obvious mistakes in using the word worship with reference to Jesus as used in older versions.MARK 15:19 (New King James Version)
“Then they struck Him on the head with a reed and spat on Him; and bowing the knee, they WORSHIPED Him.”
Many Bible's here have “paid homage to him,” or did “obeisance to him,” or something similar. Clearly, they were not spitting on him and at the same time worshiping him. The verse before (Mark 15:18) and Matthew 27:29 make clear that they “made fun” of him. It was in a mocking way that they did “obeisance to him,” bowing to him. They were not worshiping him and the context certainly doesn’t allow proskynéo to be translated as “worship” here. Yet, it is.
So just because your Bible has the word “worship” somewhere, doesn't mean a lot, if you ignore what the word translated “worship” actually means, in it's variety of meanings.I'm going to break this post into smaller posts.
Scripture Seeker, as for everything you say about the magi (Gk. magoi) (meaning magi) [please stop calling them “wise men.” They were magi and they were astrologers I would like to discuss what the Scriptures say about this in detail in the Christmas thread.
But let me quote you:Quote But if it had taken them that long [about two years] to travel to be directly under the star
Remember, the Bible says they came to the “house” where they were, not where Jesus was born. Check your Bible. The shephards who came to the place where Jesus was born where never in the same Christmas scene as the magi (Chaldean astrologers) who came to the “house” where Jesus was at the time.
Remember, Herod decreed that all babies TWO YEARS and younger be killed. This wouldn't have been well taken. “Then that was fulfilled which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet, saying: “A voice was heard in Ra´mah, weeping and much wailing; it was Rachel weeping for her children, and she was unwilling to take comfort, because they are no more.”
Why cause all this grief and hatred towards himself if it was just a newborn infant? He already wasn't well liked.
“Then Herod secretly summoned the astrologers and CAREFULLY ASCERTAINED from them the time of the star’s appearing; and, when sending them to Beth´le·hem, he said: “Go make a careful search for the young child, and when YOU have found it report back to me, that I too may go and do it obeisance [Your Bible: “worship.”].”
Why did he “carefully” ascertain the time of the stars appearing? So he would know how old the “young child,” was.
We are told that Herod: “sent out and had all the boys in Beth´le·hem and in all its districts done away with, FROM TWO YEARS OF AGE AND UNDER, ACCORDING TO THE TIME THAT HE HAD CARFULLY ASCERTAINED from the astrologers.” (Matthew)Quote But if it had taken them that long to travel to be directly under the star, surely they must have been more interested in what the star was pointing to. They would have been able to see the star from where they where, remember they where from the east and they had also seen the star in the east! It even appears that the star was moving and leading them Mat 2:9. They even call the star his star after asking Herod where the King is. Even if the wise men where magi, why would this stop them from worshipping Jesus? Especially since they knew he was a King.
It is not unusual to pay respect to a king. To worship a king, is different.
Remember, the star didn't lead them directly to where Jesus was staying. First, it lead them to Jerusalem where they came in contact with King Herod–someone who wanted the new King dead. It is Satan that wanted Jesus dead and it is Satan that is connected to astrology, not God.
(I realize we here the same old Christmas story year after year. But Christmas does not represent truth, the Bible does. Also, “wise men” is an expression used in Christmas stories, not the Bible.)Quote Also the magi/wise men deluded Herod and went back going the other way
Yes, after given divine warning in a dream, they did.Quote God uses allsorts of people to fulfill his works, even a Harlot.
The Harlot helped rescue God's servants. What were “his works” here, that the magi accomplished? Being part of a plan to have Jesus killed? Or was bringing him gifts from astrologers?Anyway, “Worship” is not the correct word for what the Chaldean magi did when they came to Jesus, the one born “king of the Jews.”
Quote But lets look at the other times the word proskuneo is used with reference to the Christ, are the other verses contradictions?
They don't have to be contradictions in order to not mean “worship.”
I was simply pointing out that THERE ARE DEFINITELY, WITHOUT QUESTION some places in the Bible where Bible translators have wrongly used the word “worship.” Yes, your Bible says “worship” in those scriptures. I could show you Bible's that don't.Who did Jesus say to worship?
At MATTHEW 4:10 (RS), Jesus said: “You shall worship [from proskynéo] the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.”
(At Deuteronomy 6:13, which Jesus is evidently here quoting, appears the personal name of God, the Tetragrammaton.)Quote God even calls all his angels to worship Jesus!
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship [or, “do obeisance to] him.
How can these be contradictions, because immediately two verses down from the above verse we would have another contradiction.
Heb 1:8 BUT UNTO THE SON HE SAITH, THY THRONE, O GOD, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Their is no contradiction, as you say. Instead of “thy throne O God is,” my Bible says: “God is thy throne..” Jehovah is God's throne, his seat of authority. All authority come from him. This is what other parts of the Bible say–“all authority has been granted him…” But by whom? Jehovah his Father.To believe otherwise, that Jesus should be worshiped sort of contradicts Jesus own words on the question of worship, when addressing Satan.
Quote We know there is only one God, all other Gods are either self proclaimed or man made. If the Father calls Jesus God then Jesus is truly God.
We are called to worship Jesus because he is God in the same essence. He was with God and is God.
“We know there is only one God…” Well, there are “many gods,” but as you say, there is only one true God. So what does that mean? There is definitely more than one god. Human Judges, angels, Satan, Jesus, God, your belly.
JOHN 17:3
“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”
A differnetiation is made between “the only true God,” and Jesus, whom the only true God, “sent forth.”
When we look at what the word “god” actually means, the apparent confusion disappears. A god is a “mighty one.” That's what that word means. But Jehovah is the only true Mighty one, in that he is “Almighty,” a word that is used in the Bible to describe him 43 times. Others are mighty. Jehovah is Almighty, “the only true God.”Quote Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD CORPOREALLY.
King James reads:
“In him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead [Greek, the·o´te·tos] bodily.”
(A similar thought is conveyed by the renderings in NE, RS, JB, NAB, Dy.) However, NW reads: “It is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily.” [true, footnote says: “lit. Godship”] (AT, We, and CKW read “God’s nature,” instead of “Godhead.” Compare 2 Peter 1:4.)Admittedly, not everyone offers the same interpretation of Colossians 2:9. But what is in agreement with the rest of the inspired letter to the Colossians? Did Christ have in himself something that is his because he is God, part of a Trinity? OR IS “the fullness” THAT DWELLS IN HIM SOMETHING THAT BECAME HIS BECAUSE OF THE DECISION OF SOMEONE ELSE?
Colossians 1:19 (KJ, Dy) says that all fullness dwelt in Christ because it “pleased the Father” for this to be the case. NE says it was “by God’s own choice.”Consider the immediate context of Colossians 2:9: In verse 8, readers are warned against being misled by those who advocate philosophy and human traditions. They are also told that in Christ “are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” and are urged to “live in him” and to be “rooted and built up in him and established in the faith.” (Verses 3, 6, 7) It is in him, and not in the originators or the teachers of human philosophy, that a certain precious “fulness” dwells. Was the apostle Paul there saying that the “fulness” that was in Christ made Christ God himself? Not according to Colossians 3:1, where Christ is said to be “seated at the right hand of God.”—See KJ, Dy, TEV, NAB.
According to Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, the·o´tes (the nominative form, from which the·o´te·tos is derived) means “divinity, divine nature.” (Oxford, 1968, p. 792) Being truly “divinity,” or of “divine nature,” does not make Jesus as the Son of God coequal and coeternal with the Father, any more than the fact that all humans share “humanity” or “human nature” makes them coequal or all the same age.
Quote When Jesus judges us, will he Judge us for worshiping him when the word of God tells us to?
JESUS HIMSELF TOLD US WHO TO WORSHIP. How Bible translators choose to render that word, based on bias or whatever should not change Jesus words. We must remember the different meanings of those words.Quote But Jesus is God! He is called God, he is called Lord and he is called the Savior.
Jesus is the Savior he is worthy of all praise!
Sure, worthy of praise. Praise and worship are not the same, at all.Then, you quote this scripture:
ISAIAH 43:10-11
““YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.””Repeatedly the Scriptures refer to God as Savior. And yes, at Isaiah 43:11 God even says: “Besides me there is no savior.” Since Jesus is also referred to as Savior, are God and Jesus the same?
Not at all. Titus 1:3, 4 speaks of “God our Savior,” and then of both “God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.” So, both persons are saviors.
Jude 25 shows the relationship, saying: “God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Italics added.) (See also Acts 13:23.) At Judges 3:9, the same Hebrew word (moh·shi´a', rendered “savior” or “deliverer”) that is used at Isaiah 43:11 is applied to Othniel, a judge in Israel, but that certainly did not make Othniel Jehovah, did it?
A reading of Isaiah 43:1-12 shows that verse 11 means that Jehovah alone was the One who provided salvation, or deliverance, for Israel; that salvation did not come from any of the gods of the surrounding nati
ons.david.
Hi Guys
Don't know if any of these points have been covered so far in this thread, I started to read it but still working through, my apologies if they have already been covered.
Here goes…Phil 2:11 – shows us I believe how the balance works.
This is perfectly typed in the Old Testament story of Pharoah and Joseph in Egypt. Everyone bowed the knee to Joseph and yet Pharoah was no less the King…Notice where it says the glory goes to – the Father.
I beleive that the true worshipper who does so in Spirit and truth accomplishes this when they do all in the name of Jesus Christ.After all Mt28:19 gives us the formula – the NAME (not names) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This is not 3 names but one name of One God as He is manifest in 3 different ways.
As God Almighty, the Father. As the Son – in and through the Son of God. As the Holy Spirit in a many membered body by a spiritual rebirth.
Hence the name of the Family in Heaven and on Earth is the same.Acts 2:38 – gives us the correct application of Mt 28:19 – In the name of Jesus Christ.
Which is why we take on our husband's name as his bride I believe.I Cor 15:27-28 also gives us a bit of an insight into this I believe.
Ultimately God is all and in all.
When the Son of God walked the earth he showed a complete and perfect harmony with the Spirit of God, insomuch that God was IN Christ reconciling the world to Himself.He came to manifest His Father, not Himself. In so doing His Father bestowed upon Him great recognition and honour. In all of this God loses nothing.
Heb 1:8-9 in verse eight God refers to Jesus as god. And in verse 9 puts it all into perspective by saying: therefore GOD even your GOD has anointed you with oil of gladness above your fellows.
David said in Ps 110:1 – YHVH (YHWH – or what ever you prefer) said to Adonai. Both are called Lord, one is greater than the other however. Both work in harmony, not at odds.
So to worship God through our Lord Jesus Christ would seem to me a good way to go on the whole.Good stuff Malcolm.
Did you know Bishop Eusebius said in his library he had an original copy of Matthew's bible and Matt 28.19 read instead
” baptising..in my name”
rather than any trinity?Makes sense and explains why the apostles were not in rebellion by baptising in the name of Yeshua in Acts. So should we surely obey the original instructions.
Back to the subject.
Jesus said
“true worshipers will worship the Father..”Quote (malcolm ferris @ Mar. 28 2006,10:09) David said in Ps 110:1 – YHVH (YHWH – or what ever you prefer) said to Adonai. Both are called Lord, one is greater than the other however.
Greetings MalcolmThe second word translated 'Lord' in Psalms 110.1
is not Adonai.It is adoni
This Hebrew word in all its 195 uses is never used to denote deity; but rather, used to denote a human (or angelic) being.
Because the English translators capitalized the 'L' most readers mistakenly assume it is the Hebrew word 'Adonai'
(Bibles such as RSV, NRSV, NEB, Jerusalem Bible, correct this by putting 'lord' in lowercase)Just thought I should point this out.
For more info, see
http://www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=398
Adam Pastor
Thanx for the correction
But the point I was making is in agreement with what you just said, there is a difference between LORD and lord YHWH and AdoniQuote (Adam Pastor @ Mar. 28 2006,23:17) Quote (malcolm ferris @ Mar. 28 2006,10:09) David said in Ps 110:1 – YHVH (YHWH – or what ever you prefer) said to Adonai. Both are called Lord, one is greater than the other however.
Greetings MalcolmThe second word translated 'Lord' in Psalms 110.1
is not Adonai.It is adoni
This Hebrew word in all its 195 uses is never used to denote deity; but rather, used to denote a human (or angelic) being.
Because the English translators capitalized the 'L' most readers mistakenly assume it is the Hebrew word 'Adonai'
(Bibles such as RSV, NRSV, NEB, Jerusalem Bible, correct this by putting 'lord' in lowercase)Just thought I should point this out.
For more info, see
http://www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=398
Adam,You stole my thunder. Notice the format of the first lord is
LORD, 3068 Yhovah yeh-ho-vaw' from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:–Jehovah, the Lord. Compare 3050, 3069. see HEBREW for 01961 see HEBREW for 03050 see HEBREW for 03069
The second lord is
113 'adown aw-done' or (shortened) adon aw-done'; from an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, i.e. controller (human or divine):– lord, master, owner. Compare also names beginning with “Adoni-“.
two different words for two different beings. One is God, the other is the Lord.
To continue on with Psalm 110:1, let's look at 1 Corinthians 15:24-28
24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.”[a] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made SUBJECT to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Now let's look at the Greek word for SUBJECT
5293 hupotasso hoop-ot-as'-so from 5259 and 5021; to subordinate; reflexively, to obey:–be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto. see GREEK for 5259 see GREEK for 5021
Now if the Son is gonna be subject to the Father when all things have been fulfilled, for those who believe in the Trinity, then how is the Son co-equal with the Father? for those who believe in the Oneness of God, how can the Son also be the Father?
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