Worship God the Father only?

Participant

OneoftheLord'sgenerals,in the trinity thread, you said:

Quote

Also, i have had a disagreement with someone on the use of worship. With much study and advice from some greek-hebrew experts. I have found out that the Hebrew form of worship(OT) is the same Greek form of worship(NT). See the bible was done in Hebrew in the Old testament before the Roman empire had control of the area. When Rome came to power, the language of the area was influenced and most people used the basic greek language which is why the New testament was written in greek. The word for worship in Hebrew is the same as the word used for worship in Greek. same exact meaning. So jesus was worshipped just as the Father in the OT was worshipped.

You said: ” I have found out that the Hebrew form of worship(OT) is the same Greek form of worship(NT). . . .same exact meaning.”
Agreed so far, they are very close. Their are shades of differences. See the post above.

Quote

Ok, so after you say they have the same meaning, you erroneously jump to this conclusion:

Quote

So jesus was worshipped just as the Father in the OT was worshipped.

You base this false premise on the belief that the words translated as “worship” have only that meaning. It is true that they do have almost exactly the same meaningS. But when you look in the Hebrew Scriptures you will find a variety of uses of those words translated as “worship.” (See post above.)
Your conclusion is wrong, based on the fact that you only look at how those words apply to Jehovah–as “worship” and not how they apply to everyone else when used.

Who did Jesus say to worship? (Mat 4:10)

This is completly false.

March 15, 2006 at 3:32 am#11839

Participant

On page 3 of this thread, Sammo has provided a link that goes into much much greater detail, looking at all the references where these words are used, how they are used, the history of the English word 'worship' and how it has changed since the 16th century, etc. It covers most everything.

david.

March 15, 2006 at 7:29 pm#11840

Participant

Ok, if we study greek further, we see John 1:1 being mistranslated by the NW translation. In John 1:1 of the NW it says he is a god. Ok, you arrived at this since the greek here is not of definite article. And in so doing you use the 'if its not a definite article, its an indefinite article'. Ok, lets use that same rule in verse 12, where JW's say that it is talking about 'Jehovah'(children of God). Yet here there is still no definite article. Why does the rule apply in John 1:1 but not in verse 12. Now these verses are incredibly close and in the same paragraph. The writer didn't all of a sudden say, well let's switch it up and confuse the heck out of people.

Also in John 20:28 JW's would say that of course we can call him God cause he is a god. Well in Greek the article here is definite. Thomas says to Jesus that he is, THEE LORD AND THEE GOD, not a lord and a god.

And brother, i am sorry for whoever may have been telling you that the Hebrew word for worship and greek word for worship are different in meaning. For they have been misleading you.

Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.5 (Rom 12:1)

Paul uses the related Greek word leitourgia (i.e. translated service) to refer to a monetary gift collected for the Jerusalem Christians and for the assistance he received from others and the term leitourgos (i.e. translated serves or servant) is used of Christ, angels, rulers, Epaphroditus's delivery of the Philippian gift, and of ministry to the Gentiles. Thus, the term latreia and its cognates are directly associated with both service & sacrifice when directed toward God. It might have been better if the translators had chosen the words 'serve', 'service' and 'minister' instead of worship.

Other terms are translated as worship including the Greek word proskyneo and its Hebrew equivalent shachac. Both of these terms refer to a posture of submission and thus an acknowledgment of God's sovereignty. Obeisance requires an attitude of reverential fear. This is evident in the behaviors of bending the knee (i.e. gonu or gonupeteo) and bowing down (histahawa or shachac {Heb.} or proskyneo {Gk. to kiss forward}) which are associated with worship.

March 15, 2006 at 11:48 pm#11842

Participant

Quote

And brother, i am sorry for whoever may have been telling you that the Hebrew word for worship and greek word for worship are different in meaning.

As I said, I agree with you, they are very very close. This is what I said. I only said they have a slightly differnet shade in meaning (when you look at where the words come from). If you read my post, you won't be so confused.

As for your intro, General, I feel sorry for you. You are in a tough position and forced to use false arguements.
If you can't defend your beliefs on Jesus being “worshiped,” (as that English word is presently understood) why not attack me as a person, or other beliefs I have. What does this have to do with what we are discussing? If you'd like to discuss John 1:1, we can do that in another forum.

Quote

Why are we talking about indefinite articles here? How does any of this apply to your argument that Jesus should be “worshipped”–that that is the correct translation of the original words???

Then, finally, you get to what you heard about worship:
(Capitalization added for emphasis.)

Quote

Paul uses the related Greek word leitourgia (i.e. translated service) to refer to a monetary gift collected for the Jerusalem Christians and for the assistance he received from others and the term leitourgos (i.e. translated serves or servant) is used of Christ, angels, rulers, Epaphroditus's delivery of the Philippian gift, and of ministry to the Gentiles. Thus, the term latreia and its cognates are directly associated with both service & sacrifice WHEN DIRECTED TOWARD GOD. It might have BEEN BETTER IF THE TRANSLATORS had chosen the words 'serve', 'service' and 'minister' INSTEAD OF WORSHIP.

The above paragraph, you said:
“Both of these terms refer to a posture of submission and thus an acknowledgment of God's sovereignty.”
Yes, but they don't always refer to Jehovah do they? And to what do they refer when they are used in reference to others?

You say:
“Obeisance requires an attitude of reverential fear. This is evident in the behaviors of bending the knee (i.e. gonu or gonupeteo) and bowing down (histahawa or shachac {Heb.} or proskyneo {Gk. to kiss forward}) which are associated with worship.”
They CAN BE and are associated with worship when used with reference to God. But they definitely, without question, do not always mean “worship.” See the Bible. Look at the examples in my post. Check your own Bible. Check page three of this post and click on Sammo's link for many many examples of the way these words are used when not refering to Jehovah God Almighty.

General, you haven't really said a lot here (at least not about Jesus being worshiped. And you haven't touched on anything I said. You did manage to raise a couple of other things which aren't at all related in any way whatsoever. Please check the “5 common fallacies” thread which looks at deceptive false arguments and how people wrongly try to prove they're right.

david.

March 15, 2006 at 11:57 pm#11843

Participant

Some clarification on this sentence in my last post:

Quote

They CAN BE and are associated with worship when used with reference to God.

What I meant to say was:
They can be associated with worship–and are associated with worship when refering to Jehovah.

And secondly, I just went back to see what I actually said. General said:

Quote

And brother, i am sorry for whoever may have been telling you that the Hebrew word for worship and greek word for worship are different in meaning. For they have been misleading you.

What I actually said was:

Quote

You said: ” I have found out that the Hebrew form of worship(OT) is the same Greek form of worship(NT). . . .SAME EXACT MEANING.”
AGREED SO FAR, THEY ARE VERY CLOSE. Their are shades of differences. See the post above.

(Capitalization added.)
I quoted you as saying that they have the “same exact meaning.” My very next words are: “Agreed so far, they are very close.”
I don't know how you can take this to mean I believe they are different. I agreed with you that they were “same exact meaning,” and only added they that have shades (in my mind, this means: 'very slight, very small') of differences.
And, they do.

General, if you would like to actually discuss whether the Bible shows that Jesus should be “worshiped,” I would love to discuss THAT with you–piece by piece.

david.

March 16, 2006 at 6:11 pm#11846

Participant

David you’re a JW. Not saying that as a derogatory( I am not sure if this is spelled correctly) statement, but you have been indoctrinated for many years into believing what you believe. Your belief system has changed through-out the ages. When I say your, I don't mean yours specifically.
See at the council of Nicea a man by the name of Arius beloved what you believe now. What the JWs believe as a whole. Now it has a different name and has been fine-tuned and tweaked to try and get out all of the kinks. CT Russell, F.W. Franz, N.H. Knorr, and many of the JW governing body on Earth in 1975 have been discredited. I mean the entire Watch Tower has been brought to shambles since some of its earlier works dating back to 1955. JWs claim that they are the one right religion( Volume LXXVI/February 15,1955/Number 4). That’s a huge claim. See with JW belief system, there isn't only one thing wrong, but almost all things wrong.
There is eternal damnation, there will be more than 144,000 in heaven, Jesus is God, The doctrine of the trinity is seen in OT and NT, Jehovah is the mistranslation of the name of God, blood transfusions are not forbidden by God, nor are organ transplants, and much more. I have washed my hands with talking to you David. You try to twist and confound what I say.
The words for worship in the OT and NT are EXACTLY same in meaning. Not slightly different but EXACTLY the same in meaning. Therefore you don't agree with me, in fact you disagree with me.
There are a lot of things about the Jehovahs witness belief that you probably don't want to be known, or you yourself have not tried to know about it. Before you put down what I have to say, look into what brought your translation about( The fact that it is swayed by a Spirit medium by the name of Johannes Greber).
I am not putting you down, but you should honestly check out some things about how the JW belief came about.

March 16, 2006 at 11:32 pm#11847

Participant

General,
Again, you are unable to actually discuss the topic of worship with me, so you try to prove you're right by stating things that aren't related. THIS IS A SAD APPROACH at showing you are right.

This is what's called FALSE REASONING. Please see the FALLACIES thread and read it several times.

Quote

The words for worship in the OT and NT are EXACTLY same in meaning. Not slightly different but EXACTLY the same in meaning. Therefore you don't agree with me, in fact you disagree with me.

OK, even though I said I agreed with you, I guess I didn't agree with the word “exactly.” They are almost exactly the same-extremely close. All I mean by that is they come from different places and have different etymologies, histories, or whatever.
But here's the point which I keep stating and you keep ignoring. The words (which we'll say are the “exact” same) have more than one meaning. This can't be argued. Those words are both used with reference to others, and don't only have “worship” as a definition.

So, for you to simply say, “they mean the same,” doesn't mean a lot. Yes, they are the same. But they have a variety of meanings. Have you read any of my post on “worship” and seen the different ways those words are used–with reference to ones other than Jehovah?

IT GREATLY BOTHERS ME WHEN PEOPLE WHO don't know what they are talking about (In this case you, and the use of the word “worship” in the Bible) try to justify their claims by saying “you are wrong because you believe this and this and this,” and nothing they said has anything to do with what you are discussing.
Because you don't have support in the Bible for your belief and can't really have a conversation with me or disagree with anything I say, you try to push the conversation in a hundred different directions and spit out as much as you can. It's happened to me hundreds of times when talking to people in the ministry. They know nothing so can only say what they were told to say: “You don't believe in Jesus [which is untrue]” and quickly shut the door.

General, doesn't it bother you not being able to prove what you believe about worship from the Bible?

If what you are saying about worship is true, (and if it is I who have been indoctrinated and not you) then WHY CAN YOU ONLY SUPPLY ONE SENTENCE in your last post to this topic, (which doesn't really show anything) but have 20 sentences to try to invalidate what I say?

When people don't have anything to prove their unjustifiable claims, this is their last sad method at proving that they are right. IT IS SAD.

General, do you have anything to say at all about whether or not Jesus should be worshiped?

Quote

SHOULD WE “WORSHIP” JESUS?

THE HEBREW AND GREEK WORDS [proskynéo (Greek) and hishtachawah (Hebrew)] THAT ARE OFTEN TRANSLATED “WORSHIP,” HAVE A VARIETY OF MEANINGS. LET’S LOOK AT THEM.

At HEBREWS 1:6, the angels are instructed to “worship” Jesus, according to the rendering of RS, TEV, KJ, JB, and NAB, and others.
New World Translation (NW) says: “do obeisance to.”
Young's Literal Translation (YLT) says: “let them bow before him.”
(No matter what English term is used, the original Greek remains the same and the understanding of what it is that the angels render to Christ must accord with the rest of the Scriptures.)

At MATTHEW 14:33, Jesus’ disciples are said to have “worshiped” him, according to RS, TEV, KJ.
Other translations say that they “showed him reverence” (NAB), “bowed down before him” (JB), “fell at his feet” (NE), “did obeisance to him” (NW).

The Greek word rendered “worship” is proskynéo, which 'A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature' says was also “used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person and kissing his feet, the hem of his garment, the ground.” (Chicago, 1979, Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker; second English edition; p. 716)
The Greek word proskynéo corresponds closely to the Hebrew term hishtachawah́ in expressing the thought of obeisance and, at times, worship.

For example, this is the term used:
at Matthew 14:33 to express what the disciples did toward Jesus;
at Hebrews 1:6 to indicate what the angels are to do toward Jesus;
at Genesis 22:5 in the Greek Septuagint to describe what Abraham did toward Jehovah;
at Genesis 23:7 to describe what Abraham did, in harmony with the custom of the time, toward people with whom he was doing business;
at 1 Kings 1:23 in the Septuagint to describe the prophet Nathan’s action on approaching King David.
at Matthew 18:26 in connection with a slave’s doing obeisance to a king.

NOTICE THOSE LAST FEW EXAMPLES AND CONSIDER WHAT THIS MEANS.
Let’s look at one more example. It’s an example of what happens when we insert the word “worship” where it clearly doesn’t belong–we get the wrong meaning.

MARK 15:19 (New King James Version)
“Then they struck Him on the head with a reed and spat on Him; and bowing the knee, they WORSHIPED Him.”
Many Bible's here have “paid homage to him,” or did “obeisance to him,” or something similar. Clearly, they were not spitting on him and at the same time worshiping him. The verse before (Mark 15:18) and Matthew 27:29 make clear that they “made fun” of him. It was in a mocking way that they did “obeisance to him,” bowing to him. They were not worshiping him and the context certainly doesn’t allow proskynéo to be translated as “worship” here.
CLEARLY, IT SHOULD NOT ALWAYS BE TRANSLATED AS “WORSHIP.”

NOW CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING:
At MATTHEW 4:10 (RS), Jesus said: “You shall worship [from proskynéo] the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.”
(At Deuteronomy 6:13, which Jesus is evidently here quoting, appears the personal name of God, the Tetragrammaton.) In harmony with that, we must understand that it is proskynéo with a particular attitude of heart and mind that should be directed only toward God.

OTHER GREEK WORDS associated with worship are drawn from eusebéo, threskeúo, and sébomai. The word eusebéo means “give godly devotion to” or “venerate, revere.” At Acts 17:23 this term is used with reference to the godly devotion or veneration that the men of Athens were giving to an “Unknown God.” From threskeúo comes the noun threskeía, understood to designate a “form of worship,” whether true or false. (Ac 26:5; Col 2:18) The true worship practiced by Christians was marked by genuine concern for the poor and complete separateness from the ungodly world. (Jas 1:26, 27) The word sébomai (Mt 15:9; Mr 7:7; Ac 18:7; 19:27) and the related term sebázomai (Ro 1:25) mean “revere; venerate; worship.” Objects of worship or of devotion are designated by the noun sébasma. (Ac 17:23; 2Th 2:4) Two other terms are from the same verb stem, with the prefix Theoś, God. These are theosebeś, meaning “God-revering” (Joh 9:31), and theosébeia, denoting “reverence of God.” (1Ti 2:10)

THE HEBREW
One of the Hebrew words conveying the idea of worship (`avadh́) basically means “serve.” (Ge
14:4; 15:13; 29:15) Serving or worshiping Jehovah required obedience to all of his commands, doing his will as a person exclusively devoted to him. (Ex 19:5; De 30:15-20; Jos 24:14, 15) Therefore, for an individual to engage in any ritual or act of devotion toward any other gods signified his abandoning true worship.—De 11:13-17; Jg 3:6, 7.

Hishtachawah́ means, basically, “bow down.” (Ge 18:2)
Such bowing might be done as an act of respect or deference toward another human, as to a king (1Sa 24:8; 2Sa 24:20; Ps 45:11),
the high priest (1Sa 2:36),
a prophet (2Ki 2:15),
or other person of authority (Ge 37:9, 10; 42:6; Ru 2:8-10),
to an elder relative (Ge 33:1-6; 48:11, 12; Ex 18:7; 1Ki 2:19),
or even to strangers as an expression of courteous regard (Ge 19:1, 2).
Abraham bowed down to the Canaanite sons of Heth from whom he sought to buy a burial place. (Ge 23:7)
Isaac’s blessing on Jacob called for national groups and Jacob’s own “brothers” to bow down to him. (Ge 27:29; compare 49:8.)
When men started to bow down before David’s son Absalom, he grabbed them and kissed them, evidently to further his political ambitions by making a show of putting himself on a level with them. (2Sa 15:5, 6)
Mordecai refused to prostrate himself before Haman, not because he viewed the practice as wrong in itself, but doubtless because this high Persian official was an accursed Amalekite by descent.—Es 3:1-6.

FROM THE ABOVE EXAMPLES IT IS CLEAR THAT THIS HEBREW TERM OF ITSELF DOES NOT NECESSARILY HAVE A RELIGIOUS SENSE OR SIGNIFY WORSHIP.
Nevertheless, in a large number of cases it is used in connection with worship, either of the true God (Ex 24:1; Ps 95:6; Isa 27:13; 66:23) or of false gods. (De 4:19; 8:19; 11:16)

Bowing down to humans as an act of respect was admissible, but bowing to anyone other than Jehovah as a deity was prohibited by God. (Ex 23:24; 34:14) Similarly, the worshipful bowing down to religious images or to any created thing was positively condemned. (Ex 20:4, 5; Le 26:1; De 4:15-19; Isa 2:8, 9, 20, 21) Thus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, when certain of Jehovah’s servants prostrated themselves before angels, they only did so to show they recognized that these were God’s representatives, not to render obeisance to them as deities.—Jos 5:13-15; Ge 18:1-3.

The Greek proskynéo corresponds closely to the Hebrew hishtachawah́ as to conveying the thought of both obeisance to creatures and worship to God or a deity. The manner of expressing the obeisance is perhaps not so prominent in proskynéo as in hishtachawah́, where the Hebrew term graphically conveys the thought of prostration or bowing down. Scholars derive the Greek term from the verb kynéo, “kiss.” The usage of the word in the Christian Greek Scriptures (as also in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures) shows that persons to whose actions the term is applied prostrated themselves or bowed down.—Mt 2:11; 18:26; 28:9.

As with the Hebrew term, the context must be considered to determine whether proskynéo refers to obeisance solely in the form of deep respect or obeisance in the form of religious worship.
Where reference is directly to God (Joh 4:20-24; 1Co 14:25; Re 4:10) or to false gods and their idols (Ac 7:43; Re 9:20), it is evident that the obeisance goes beyond that acceptably or customarily rendered to men and enters the field of worship. So, too, where the object of the obeisance is left unstated, its being directed to God is understood. (Joh 12:20; Ac 8:27; 24:11; Heb 11:21; Re 11:1)
ON THE OTHER HAND, THE ACTION OF THOSE OF “THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN” WHO ARE MADE TO “COME AND DO OBEISANCE” BEFORE THE FEET OF CHRISTIANS IS CLEARLY NOT WORSHIP. (Re 3:9.) Yet, some Bible’s translate it as “worship.” Indiscriminately translating these words as “worship” is wrong.

HERE IS THE OBVIOUS CONCLUSION, THE POINT OF THIS POST:
While some translators use the word “worship” in the majority of cases where proskynéo describes persons’ actions toward Jesus, the evidence does not warrant one’s reading too much into this rendering. Rather, the circumstances that evoked the obeisance correspond very closely to those producing obeisance to the earlier prophets and kings. (Compare Mt 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; 20:20 with 1Sa 25:23, 24; 2Sa 14:4-7; 1Ki 1:16; 2Ki 4:36, 37.) The very expressions of those involved often reveal that, while they clearly recognized Jesus as God’s representative, they rendered obeisance to him, not as to God or a deity, but as “God’s Son,” the foretold “Son of man,” the Messiah with divine authority. On many occasions their obeisance expressed a gratitude for divine revelation or evidence of favor like that expressed in earlier times.—Mt 14:32, 33; 28:5-10, 16-18; Lu 24:50-52; Joh 9:35, 38.

While earlier prophets and also angels had accepted obeisance, Peter stopped Cornelius from rendering such to him, and the angel or angels of John’s vision twice stopped John from doing so, referring to himself as “a fellow slave” and concluding with the exhortation to “worship God [toi Theoí proskýneson].” (Ac 10:25, 26; Re 19:10; 22:8, 9) Evidently Christ’s coming had brought in new relationships affecting standards of conduct toward others of God’s servants. He taught his disciples that “one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers . . . your Leader is one, the Christ” (Mt 23:8-12), for it was in him that the prophetic figures and types found their fulfillment, even as the angel told John that “the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying.” (Re 19:10) Jesus was David’s Lord, the greater than Solomon, the prophet greater than Moses. (Lu 20:41-43; Mt 12:42; Ac 3:19-24) The obeisance rendered those men prefigured that due Christ. Peter therefore rightly refused to let Cornelius make too much of him.

On the other hand, Christ Jesus has been exalted by his Father to a position second only to God.
PHILIPPIANS 2:9-11
“. . . so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” (Compare Da 7:13, 14, 27.)

Jesus himself emphatically stated to Satan that “it is Jehovah your God you must worship [form of proskynéo], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.” (Mt 4:8-10; Lu 4:7, 8) Similarly, the angel(s) told John to “worship God” (Re 19:10; 22:9), and this injunction came after Jesus’ resurrection and exaltation, showing that matters had not changed in this regard. True, Psalm 97, which the apostle evidently quotes at Hebrews 1:6, refers to Jehovah God as the object of the ‘bowing down,’ and still this text was applied to Christ Jesus. (Ps 97:1, 7) However, the apostle previously had shown that the resurrected Christ is “the reflection of [God’s] glory and the exact representation of his very being.” (Heb 1:1-3) Hence, if what we understand as “worship” is apparently directed to the Son by angels, it is in reality being directed through him to Jehovah God, the Sovereign Ruler, “the One who made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters.” (Re 14:7; 4:10, 11; 7:11, 12; 11:16, 17; compare 1Ch 29:20; Re 5:13, 14; 21:22.) On the other hand, the renderings “bow before” and ‘pay homage’ (instead of “worship”) are in no way out of harmony with the original language, either the Hebrew of Psalm 97:7 or the Greek of Hebrews 1:6, for such translations convey the basic sense of both hishtachawah́ and proskynéo.

March 18, 2006 at 4:11 pm#11853

Participant

again David i am not wasting my time. You will never change your approach, nor will I. And yes you are informed and I know again you will try to make me look like a fool. So i end it here. I pray God will reveal himself to you, and you will realize that the belief system in which you follow(JW) is a cult. Not just marked by almost every other belief in 'Christendom'(such a collective word, i don't like to sum all christian branches into one), but to the government also. Its a cult that has had a strong grip on people and confuses and pushes those farther away.
One of the Memebers and a big founder(actually co-founder) stated that Jesus was to come back in some year and when He did't come it was changed to a different date many times. Then it was said he came invisibly.

Matthew 12:

22 And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would endure and survive, but for the sake of the elect (God's chosen ones) those days will be shortened.

23 If anyone says to you then, Behold, here is the Christ (the Messiah)! or, There He is!–do not believe it.

24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise, and they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (God's chosen ones).

25 See, I have warned you beforehand.

26 So if they say to you, Behold, He is in the wilderness (desert)–do not go out there; if they tell you, Behold, He is in the secret places or inner rooms–do not believe it.

27 For just as the lightning flashes from the east and shines and is seen as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

All others please beware of this same trap. May the love of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit be upon you. Glory to Yahweh.

I no longer will read anything after this, so please don't adress it to me. Thank you.

March 18, 2006 at 4:16 pm#11854

Participant

And I do know what I am talking about(And this information comes from not just one person[me] but many Hebrew/Greek scholars, maybe you should tell them they are wrong too.), it is you who tries to belittle my words and make me angry. And you no longer will be able to do that, for I am leaving and shaking the dust from my shoes. You have not accepted what is true.
May the Peace of Jesus Christ be upon you all.

March 18, 2006 at 5:42 pm#11856

Participant

Quote

And I do know what I am talking about(And this information comes from not just one person[me] but many Hebrew/Greek scholars,

First, I agreed that they are the same words. But making a leap and saying: See that proves that Jesus should be worshiped is completely wrong as those words can mean a variety of things and are spoken of with regard to a number of people, definitely not always with the word “worship” as a use.

“this information comes from not just one person[me] but many Hebrew/Greek scholars, maybe you should tell them they are wrong too.”
What information? All General said was some scholar said that those words mean the same thing, which I essentially said over and over in my long post. But this means very little as those words mean more than one thing.
The one sentence General gave from a scholar proves nothing, more than what I've already stated.

Quote

again David i am not wasting my time. You will never change your approach, nor will I. And yes you are informed and I know again you will try to make me look like a fool. So i end it here.

So, I was right. He is unable to discuss this topic with me, or to say anything at all that proves what he believes, (because perhaps he has been indoctrinated with his beliefs which he can't prove–just a guess). And that's why he repeatedly tries to attack me on other non-related issues, and that's why he must end the conversation. Fair enough.

Quote

You have not accepted what is true.

What SCRIPTURES did General post with regards to this topic? Any?
Or none?
What Biblical proof did he offer? Any? Or none?

I think I'm going to post in the FALLACIES thread and point to the last couple pages in this thread as false reasoning and examples of how not to prove you are right.

One more thing: that scripture you tried to quote: About shaking the dust off your feet. The beginning of it says: Anyone not taking you in or listening to your words…
I am listening to you. It is you who are closing the door on me, the one who keeps trying to talk about what the Bible actually says. And it is I who should have shook the dust off my feet the moment you showed yourself unwilling to discuss this, the moment you started slandering my other beliefs to try to disprove what I believe about “worship”–the theme of this thread.

So, is there anyone who would actually like to discuss: Should Jesus be worshiped?

david

March 20, 2006 at 1:23 am#11865

Participant

David do you change your picture at the left more times and faster than you change your shorts or underwear?

Worship Yahweh Elohim him only shalt you serve.

Jamie

March 20, 2006 at 5:04 am#11867

Participant

Jamie, I have only changed twice and the second time was to make things simpler for you, because it can be confusing that Nick Hassen and I have the same avatar.

So in answer to your question: I change both my shorts and underwear much much more frequently.

Quote

So, is there anyone who would actually like to discuss: Should Jesus be worshiped?

So Jamie, what do you say to those that believe Jesus should be worshiped?

March 20, 2006 at 7:31 am#11868

Participant

Quote

So Jamie, what do you say to those that believe Jesus should be worshiped?

YHWH is to be worshipped and I think your ' jesus' is a modern day false savior as the true Messiah's English name is Yahushua transliterated from the Hebrew 'Yod Hey Waw Shin Ayin ' you can stuff your false 'jesus' where the sun don't shine David.

Jamie

March 20, 2006 at 7:53 am#11869

Participant

The name 'jesus ' is another modern name for ' nimrod '.

March 20, 2006 at 6:26 pm#11873

Participant

Jamie, you have just beautifully illustrated one of the reasons why Eliyah was removed.
He would often speak as you do, with the same tone, and completely disregard the subject at hand, and jump to the message he repeatedly tried to get across.

Is there anyone anywhere who would like to discuss the subject of THIS thread, and without yelling?

david

March 20, 2006 at 9:36 pm#11877

kenrch

Participant

Quote (david @ Mar. 18 2006,17:42)

Quote

And I do know what I am talking about(And this information comes from not just one person[me] but many Hebrew/Greek scholars,

Quote

again David i am not wasting my time. You will never change your approach, nor will I. And yes you are informed and I know again you will try to make me look like a fool. So i end it here.

Quote

You have not accepted what is true.

What SCRIPTURES did General post with regards to this topic? Any?
Or none?
What Biblical proof did he offer? Any? Or none?

I think I'm going to post in the FALLACIES thread and point to the last couple pages in this thread as false reasoning and examples of how not to prove you are right.

So, is there anyone who would actually like to discuss: Should Jesus be worshiped?

david

This is what Paul said about disputes over words:

1Ti 6:4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for QUARRELS ABOUT WORDS, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions,
1Ti 6:11 But as for you, O man of God, flee these things. Pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness.
1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

How much time has been wasted with “debates” of what words mean. If you enter a “debate” knowing that you will never give in “because of pride” then you shouldn't get involved. Rather listen and see if you are correct. You can't learn nothing if you already know it all. AND THERE'S “NOBODY” ON THIS EARTH THAT KNOWS IT ALL!

Jesus said to pray to our Father which art in heaven. I don't remember reading anywhere that the first century saints prayed to Jesus.
So that's where I'll leave it!

March 21, 2006 at 2:47 am#11880

Participant

Right, as you say, 'there is no one on earth that knows it all.' But I would like to discuss WHAT THE BIBLE actually says and how the words often translated “worship” are actually used in the Bible.

I understand the uselessness of some of these discussions. If nothing else, it helps me to learn and remember and helps me to understand how others think.

A lot of this thread centers around the trinity doctrine. The belief that Jesus was worshiped or that we are to worship Jesus is one of the false legs that this belief stands upon.
It seems most people just look at their Bibles and find the word “worship” but don't know what the words that were thus translated actually mean. And they defend it to their death.

As far as disputes about words, if you are referring to the word “worship,” that is exactly what this thread is about, as far as I can tell. If people ignore what the words are that were translated as “worship” or don't know the many meanings of those words that were translated worship, and the use of those words with reference to people–if they simply close their eyes and minds and say: 'My Bible says Jesus should be worshiped,' this would be a mistake.

Notice that we've gone through a couple of pages without actually discussing anything that has to do with worship.

david.

March 21, 2006 at 4:14 am#11882

kenrch

Participant

Quote (david @ Mar. 21 2006,02:47)

I understand the uselessness of some of these discussions. If nothing else, it helps me to learn and remember and helps me to understand how others think.

Notice that we've gone through a couple of pages without actually discussing anything that has to do with worship.

david.

Jesus said to pray to our Father which art in heaven. I don't remember reading anywhere that the first century saints prayed to Jesus.

I answered the question about worship with scripture.

2Pe 1:20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

1Ti 6:4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for QUARRELS ABOUT WORDS, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions,

Are you carried along with the Holy Spirit telling you to argue about the “word” worship when the answer is what Jesus said “it's that simple”.

Scripture answers scripture!

March 21, 2006 at 5:02 am#11883

Participant

Quote

Jesus said to pray to our Father which art in heaven. I don't remember reading anywhere that the first century saints prayed to Jesus.

Quote

Are you carried along with the Holy Spirit telling you to argue about the “word” worship when the answer is what Jesus said “it's that simple”.

Kenrch, you stated a reason why you believe that Jesus was not worshiped: The holy ones didn't pray to him.
Fine, this is a good point.

If you read my posts, you will see that I agree with you on this subject.

But perhaps you are right. The first concern of the person teaching the Bible should be the glory of God, not the promotion of his own doctrine.

So, let the glory be to God:
REVELATION 4:11
““You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.””

March 23, 2006 at 11:06 am#11940