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Quote AND IN THE MIDDLE OF ALL OF THIS HE SAYS “I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE”. If another person who knows better, misapplies this scripture again, my head is going to explode.
Quote Therefore the Jews sought “the more to kill him”, because he not only had broken the sabbath, “but said also that God was his Father, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL TO GOD. John 5:18 WJ, just as we can't really trust the Pharisees to do the right thing, nor can we trust what the Jews who wanted Jesus dead, to believe the right thing. Notice that what Jesus said was the “God was his Father” and what those stupid people that wanted Jesus dead concluded was that this was equivalent to making himself equal to God.
Do we believe Jesus?
Do we believe the ones who wanted Jesus dead?Quote How does your words negate Jesus claim to equality? WJ
Sorry, what? ? ?
How does Jesus saying “the father is greater than me” equate to him claiming equality?
Which scripture says he claimed equality. (See post above for who wrongly believed that…hint: It's the most wrong people that ever lived, those who wanted Jesus dead…why align yourself with their beliefs?)
Quote Yes Mike Listen to these words…
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that “GOD WAS HIS FATHER”, “making himself equal with God. John 5:18
WJ, let me show you that the Satanists who you are agreeing with have bad logic:
“God is my Father.” There, I said it. Does that mean that I am making myself equal to God?
No, but that is how those who wanted Jesus dead interpreted it. If you look at that scripture again, we note that what JESUS SAID was that God was his Father, and not that he was equal with God.Quote And… “I and my Father are one. “Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, “For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, BEING A MAN, MAKEST THYSELF GOD”. John 10:30-33
WJ, you know better than to claim that Jesus and the Father being “one” means Jesus is God, for by the same logic, you would have to believe that Jesus disciples are Jesus. Jesus himself said that “just as” he and the Father were one, so too, he and his disciples are one. (They are “one” in purpose, united.) So, I say: “Shame on you. You know this!”
As for the second part, again, note who it was that committed this false reasoning.
WJ, you continue to align your thoughts with those who wanted Jesus dead. Is that a wise move?
Quote But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. Acts 10:26 Why didn't Jesus do this?
When a king is bowed down to (in greek, “proskyneo”) he accepts this honor. Peter apparently felt uncomfortable with it. He was humble. And while Jesus is also humble, we know he is deserving of great honor. It is not a sin to show deep honor and respect to the very son of God, is it? (People bow before kings and presidents all the time. How much more so the Son of God?)
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,22:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:17) Mike Read it closely, it is Johns words that is commentating what Jesus meant!
Therefore the Jews sought “the more to kill him”, because he not only had broken the sabbath, “but said also that God was his Father, “MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL TO GOD. John 5:18
WJ
And if I knew you didn't steal the car, but others thought you did, I could also say, “They're arresting Keith for stealing the car”. It doesn't mean I agree with them, I'm just telling what THEY think you did and why you are being arrested.What about Rev 3:9 and Acts 10:25? Was it “God-Worship”?
mike
MikeHave it your way by sticking your head in the sand!
John didn't say that they were wrong did he?
WJ
Sometimes the Bible doesn't state the obvious, especially when it's made clear everyone else.And John is not saying here what he believed. He is saying what people who wanted Jesus dead believed.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:48) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,22:39) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:26) “I and my Father are one. “Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, “For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, BEING A MA, MAKEST THYSELF GOD”. John 10:30-33
We can forgive the Jews their misunderstanding, because unlike us, they didn't have the benefit of Jesus explaining what he meant by “I and the Father are one”. Unlike them, we later understand that he meant “one in purpose”, for his hope is for us to be one with them – and we will not be God.
HAHAHA!Mike knows more about what the Jews meant 2000 years ago than the Jews themselves including John and many of the early forefathers!
WJ
Well, WJ, he does know more than you. Scripture itself explain what was meant by Jesus being “one” with the Father.“in order that they [Jesus' disciples] may be one just as we are one.“ (John 17:11)
Also read John 17:21. Same thing, but explains it even better.
Clearly, they are one in purpose, in union with one another.
Also, we always leave out what Jesus actually said caused all this, that is, him saying: “I am God's Son.” (Read John 10:36)
Keith, in the last 3 pages, I believe I clearly refuted scripturally all the points you make. I would add more, but it is quite late. If there is anything you disagree with, I could spend more time on this.
In summary, I find you continue to agree with what those who wanted Jesus dead were saying and not with Jesus himself.
I find you continually mention that Jesus and the Father are “one” but don't address what this clearly scripturally means. (see above.)Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Nov. 02 2010,17:41) Shimmer, I want to remind you that Im the type that you either refute my points or you leave them valid.
Hi SF,Jesus refusing to defend himself (using SF's logic) meant he was guilty?
Your logic is a bit F-L-A-W-E-D no?Quote (david @ Nov. 02 2010,01:33) Quote In all the scriptures that speak of Jesus being worshipped (proskyneō) why didn’t Jesus once say do not worship me? To say that it is because Jesus wasn’t being worshipped but just being honored lacks evidence because there are no other NT examples of the word proskyneō being used toward any one with honor other than the Father and Jesus. In every case the word is directed to any other it is refused or it is a worshipping falsely.
The burden of proof is on the gainsayers.
The rhetoric about the word proskyneō not meaning “worship” but just bowing down out of respect is not in the NT.
Please can someone give us a NT example of the word being used in honor to any other than the Father and Jesus? Where is the NT example of a bowing down to someone out of great respect?
I'll give you a couple, if you want. But I've already done this WJ.
MATTHEW 18:26. What is being done here is certainly not worship, but rather, a prostrating or bowing down to a king. And the word is “proskyneo.”
So the above is an example that i believe fits what you requested.Here is another example that, although it doesn't show the honor (instead of worship) but rather it shows a “bowing down” as the word “proskyneo” basically means.
MARK 15:19 (New King James Version)
“Then they struck Him on the head with a reed and spat on Him; and bowing the knee, they WORSHIPED Him.”
THIS IS A MISTRANSLATION. They are not worshipping him. They are mockingly bowing down. Again, the word “proskyneo” DOES NOT ALWAYS DENOTE WORSHIP!!!!!You cannot argue that it does.
DavidYou have not proven that they were not worshipping the King!
The servant therefore “FELL DOWN“, and “WORSHIPPED HIM, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Matt 18:26
Notice the words “FELL DOWN“, and “WORSHIPPED HIM“, (peswn oun o doulov prosekunei)
But according to your interpretation it would be “fell down” and “fell down” or “fell down” and “bowed down”.
Besides who is the King that Jesus is speaking of?
“So likewise shall “MY HEAVENLY FATHER” do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses”. Matt 18:25
Are you saying that they will not be worshipping the Father in that day?
You also have not proven that they were not mocking “true worship“. John 4:24
Should I list all of the scriptures that show the word proskyneō being used as worship to the Father? Nine times in just 4 verses Jesus used the word “proskyneo” in his conversation with the woman at the well concerning “True Worship” to the Father. Why did Jesus use this word and yet when they were worshipping him he did not discourage them like Peter did…
And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and “fell down at his feet, and “worshipped (proskyneō) him. But Peter took him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself also am a man“. Acts 10:25, 26
You see, there is that “fell down at his feet, and “worshipped (proskyneō) him“.
Get that? “FELL DOWN” AND “WORSHIPPED HIM“!!!
Why didn't Jesus “EVER” tell them what Peter told Cornelius?
Should I list the scriptures where the word “proskyneō” is used toward men where it was forbidden?
Why don't you address this point…?
Jesus said…
But the hour cometh, and now is, when THE TRUE WORSHIPPERS [GR PROSKYNĒTĒS] SHALL WORSHIP the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
Notice Strong's G4353 – “proskynētēs”, it is a masculine noun which means “worshippers” and is only found ONCE in the NT. It is the root word for the verb “proskyneō”.
So that means that every time you see the verb “proskyneō” it is being performed by someone who is a “worshipper” “proskynētēs”!
WJ
Quote (david @ Nov. 02 2010,01:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 01 2010,20:11) So if Jesus said to the man that “no one” is good but one “GOD” and then says he was “Good” then that is proof that he is claiming equality with God once again. And what of others who are called “good”?
And what of the fact that Jehovah is “alone wise”? Yet, others are called “wise”
Perhaps, RELATIVELY SPEAKING, no one is wise or good COMPARED TO JEHOVAH.
DavidJesus said “no one” was good but God. Do you believe him or not?
Now why did he say he was the “Good Shepherd”?
They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: “THERE IS NONE THAT DOETH GOOD, NO, NOT ONE“. Pss 14:3
Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; “THERE IS NONE THAT DOETH GOOD, NO, NOT ONE”. Pss 53:3
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; “THERE IS NONE THAT DOETH GOOD, NO, NOT ONE”. Rom 3:12
”ALL WE LIKE SHEEP HAVE GONE ASTRAY”; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. Isa 53:6
”FOR ALL HAVE SINNED”, and come short of the glory of God; Rom 3:23
Does Jesus fit in the above scriptures?
Jesus point is all men have sinned. Did Jesus sin?
So how do you explain this conundrum that you have?
Major premise:No one is good but God
Minor premise: Jesus is the Good Shepherd
Conclusion: Jesus is GodWJ
Quote (david @ Nov. 02 2010,02:05) Quote AND IN THE MIDDLE OF ALL OF THIS HE SAYS “I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE”. If another person who knows better, misapplies this scripture again, my head is going to explode.
DavidYou mean like the Jews who wanted to stone him for saying it?
WJ
Quote (david @ Nov. 02 2010,02:09) Quote Therefore the Jews sought “the more to kill him”, because he not only had broken the sabbath, “but said also that God was his Father, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL TO GOD. John 5:18 WJ, just as we can't really trust the Pharisees to do the right thing, nor can we trust what the Jews who wanted Jesus dead, to believe the right thing. Notice that what Jesus said was the “God was his Father” and what those stupid people that wanted Jesus dead concluded was that this was equivalent to making himself equal to God.
Do we believe Jesus?
Do we believe the ones who wanted Jesus dead?
How about trusting Johns commentary of Jesus words…But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, “and I work“. Therefore the Jews sought “the more to kill him“, because he not only had broken the sabbath, “but said also that God was his Father, “MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL TO GOD. John 5:17, 18
If being a personal Son of God was common, then what was all the fuss that the demons made and the Jews in wanting to stone him for making this claim?
AT Roberstson states…
Certainly the Jews understood Jesus to claim equality with the Father in nature and privilege and power as also in John 10:33 ; John 19:7 . Besides, if the Jews misunderstood Jesus on this point, it was open and easy for him to deny it and to clear up the misapprehension. This is precisely what he does not do. On the contrary Jesus gives a powerful apologetic in defence of his claim to equality with the Father (verses John 19-47 ).
The NET Says…
My Father is working until now, and I too am working.” What is the significance of Jesus’ claim? A preliminary understanding can be obtained from John 5:18, noting the Jewish authorities’ response and the author’s comment. They sought to kill Jesus, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was also calling God his own Father, thus making himself equal with God. This must be seen in the context of the relation of God to the Sabbath rest. In the commandment (Exod 20:11) it is explained that “In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth…and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.” Philo, based on the LXX translation of Exod 20:11, denied outright that God had ever ceased his creative activity. And when Rabban Gamaliel II, R. Joshua, R. Eleazar ben Azariah, and R. Akiba were in Rome, ca. a.d. 95, they gave as a rebuttal to sectarian arguments evidence that God might do as he willed in the world without breaking the Sabbath because the entire world was his private residence. So even the rabbis realized that God did not really cease to work on the Sabbath: Divine providence remained active on the Sabbath, otherwise, all nature and life would cease to exist. As regards men, divine activity was visible in two ways: Men were born and men died on the Sabbath. Since only God could give life and only God could deal with the fate of the dead in judgment, this meant God was active on the Sabbath. This seems to be the background for Jesus’ words in 5:17. He justified his work of healing on the Sabbath by reminding the Jewish authorities that they admitted God worked on the Sabbath. This explains the violence of the reaction. The Sabbath privilege was peculiar to God, and no one was equal to God. “In claiming the right to work even as his Father worked, Jesus was claiming a divine prerogative. He was literally making himself equal to God, as 5:18 goes on to state explicitly for the benefit of the reader who might not have made the connection“.
So if Jesus was not makng himself equal to God by saying God was his own Father then why did they want to stone him? Why didn't Jesus or John correct them?
WJ
Quote (david @ Nov. 02 2010,02:20) Quote But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. Acts 10:26 Why didn't Jesus do this?
When a king is bowed down to (in greek, “proskyneo”) he accepts this honor. Peter apparently felt uncomfortable with it. He was humble. And while Jesus is also humble, we know he is deserving of great honor. It is not a sin to show deep honor and respect to the very son of God, is it? (People bow before kings and presidents all the time. How much more so the Son of God?)
Poppycock!Peter clearly understood his action and didn't say “you don't have to honour me” but instead told him that “he also is a man”.
If “proskyneo” here is simply giving honour and not worship then it would have been fine to Peter!
WJ
Quote (david @ Nov. 02 2010,02:23) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,22:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:17) Mike Read it closely, it is Johns words that is commentating what Jesus meant!
Therefore the Jews sought “the more to kill him”, because he not only had broken the sabbath, “but said also that God was his Father, “MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL TO GOD. John 5:18
WJ
And if I knew you didn't steal the car, but others thought you did, I could also say, “They're arresting Keith for stealing the car”. It doesn't mean I agree with them, I'm just telling what THEY think you did and why you are being arrested.What about Rev 3:9 and Acts 10:25? Was it “God-Worship”?
mike
MikeHave it your way by sticking your head in the sand!
John didn't say that they were wrong did he?
WJ
Sometimes the Bible doesn't state the obvious, especially when it's made clear everyone else.And John is not saying here what he believed. He is saying what people who wanted Jesus dead believed.
Wrong!Read Johns commentary with honesty!
WJ
Quote (david @ Nov. 02 2010,02:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:48) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,22:39) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2010,14:26) “I and my Father are one. “Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, “For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, BEING A MA, MAKEST THYSELF GOD”. John 10:30-33
We can forgive the Jews their misunderstanding, because unlike us, they didn't have the benefit of Jesus explaining what he meant by “I and the Father are one”. Unlike them, we later understand that he meant “one in purpose”, for his hope is for us to be one with them – and we will not be God.
HAHAHA!Mike knows more about what the Jews meant 2000 years ago than the Jews themselves including John and many of the early forefathers!
WJ
Well, WJ, he does know more than you. Scripture itself explain what was meant by Jesus being “one” with the Father.“in order that they [Jesus' disciples] may be one just as we are one.“ (John 17:11)
Also read John 17:21. Same thing, but explains it even better.
Clearly, they are one in purpose, in union with one another.
Also, we always leave out what Jesus actually said caused all this, that is, him saying: “I am God's Son.” (Read John 10:36)
DavidIf our oneness with the Father is the same as Jesus, then why is Jesus the “Only Begotten Son of God”?
WJ
Quote (david @ Nov. 02 2010,02:34) Keith, in the last 3 pages, I believe I clearly refuted scripturally all the points you make. I would add more, but it is quite late. If there is anything you disagree with, I could spend more time on this. 
OK
I have given my take on worship. I am done for now. I don't have time or the will to take on all of HN!
WJ
This info really should end this back and forth arguing if this is true:
“In that culture, a dignitary's adult son was deemed equal in stature and privilege with his father. The same deference demanded by a king was afforded to his adult son. The son was, after all, of the very same essence as his father, heir to all the father's rights and privileges–and therefore equal in every significant regard. So when Jesus was called “Son of God,” it was understood categorically by all as a title of deity, making Him equal with God and (more significantly) of the same essence as the Father. That is precisely why the Jewish leaders regarded the title “Son of God” as high blasphemy.”
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