- This topic has 2,141 replies, 60 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 1 month ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Nov. 01 2010,18:44) Quote (david @ Nov. 01 2010,12:17) Quote I think Kathi, the best arguement is not to seperate the Father and the Son, they are always mentioned togethor, If we are speaking of the Bible as a whole, then you will find that “Jehovah” is mentioned without the “Son” several thousand times!
I know right?
I find that strange as well?
Why did the Jew feel so insulted when we all are sons of God?
And how did they come up with the concept that God had a begotten Son?
They knew that the messiah was coming, but as the Son? or whats up with that?
SF< I don't really know what your comments are about or how they relate to "who should we worship"?Quote (david @ Nov. 01 2010,12:45) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Nov. 01 2010,18:40) Quote (david @ Nov. 01 2010,12:27) Quote Truth is that the Son dwells in the one true Light, when have they ever been seperated? After Jesus creation, they were separated once for a few days.
According to what scripture?
When Jesus died, it was his Father, who was still living who resurrected him. They did not both die.If you look a little further, you'll find Jesus was in hades for that time, which is a state of non-existence. The Father, is the king of eternity, and has always existed.
Actually that conjecture David,
First of all scripture says that Jesus gave up his “spirit” “ghost”
his body Died.Was he sepereated?
Hades and sheloh are used interchangably to represent a state of torment, but also know that Abrahams bosom is side by side by this place.
Jesus states in John 17, that they are one, that the Father is IN HIM.
again when were they seperated?
was he ever spiritualy seperated from the Father?Quote You are right. The OT does never talk about Jesus being used by Jehovah to create the universe BECAUSE IT DOESN'T REALLY TALK ABOUT JESUS TOO MUCH. Well, unless you include Proverbs, which many believe symbolically speaks of Jehovah using Jesus as a master worker to do these things.
Quote (david @ Nov. 01 2010,12:50) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Nov. 01 2010,18:44) Quote (david @ Nov. 01 2010,12:17) Quote I think Kathi, the best arguement is not to seperate the Father and the Son, they are always mentioned togethor, If we are speaking of the Bible as a whole, then you will find that “Jehovah” is mentioned without the “Son” several thousand times!
I know right?
I find that strange as well?
Why did the Jew feel so insulted when we all are sons of God?
And how did they come up with the concept that God had a begotten Son?
They knew that the messiah was coming, but as the Son? or whats up with that?
SF< I don't really know what your comments are about or how they relate to "who should we worship"?
The question i posed are in reference to your comment that Jehovah is mentioned without the son several times.My questions are in reference to how Jews interpreted the “son of God”
And by figuring that out it relates to whom sould we worship.
Quote Hades and sheloh are used interchangably to represent a state of torment
So you think Jesus was tormented for those days?Quote First of all scripture says that Jesus gave up his “spirit” “ghost” First, it's just plain wrong to translate it “ghost” for a number of reasons. “spirit” in the Bible is used in a number of ways, and is often used to refer to the … lets say, “power” inside of someone.
Example: In Psalms it says that when a noble dies, “his spirit goes out, he goes back to the ground, in that day his thoughts do perish.” (If his body is still alive, wouldn't he have thoughts?)
It can be thought of as the electricity in a fan, for example. When the electricity goes back to the source (God) the fan stops running. God breathed spirit into adam. He didn't breath a Ghost (disembodied person) into Adam.Quote (david @ Nov. 01 2010,12:49) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Nov. 01 2010,18:39) Quote (david @ Nov. 01 2010,12:26) Quote I think Kathi, the best arguement is not to seperate the Father and the Son, they are always mentioned togethor, That's so true. In fact I wonder why they even have separate names. Oh, wait, because they aren't the same person, and that would be confusing. As it turn out, “Jehovah” is mentioned about 7000 times without the “Son” or “Jesus” being included in the context. This is how the “inspired” Bible writers wrote things down. What did they understand?
Actually your right,
I also find it riduclous how all of the sudden Paul and John figured out that Jesus had participation in creating the universe.
I mean the OT never talks about such things…. amazing right?
First, I know I am right. (I've done the math.) But thank you for acknowledging the obvious.You are right. The OT does never talk about Jesus being used by Jehovah to create the universe BECAUSE IT DOESN'T REALLY TALK ABOUT JESUS TOO MUCH.
Again, thank you for proving my point. (OT hardly mentions the Messiah, but it mentions “Jehovah” 7000 times!)
Simply put, your statement was wrong:
the Father and the Son, they are always mentioned togethor,
Actually my statement is not wrongJehovah is not the Father until the Son came to reveal him as the father.
Jehovah is God almighty of course, but not the father to anyone until Jesus revealed him as such.
Paul says that through Jesus and the spirit of adoption we have the right to call God “abba” FATHER.so my statement is correct that the FATHER and the SON are always mentioned togethor.
Where in the OT is Jehovah expressed as father?
Quote Jesus states in John 17, that they are one, that the Father is IN HIM. I love it when people say that John says that the son and Father are one. I find it comical and fun.
Later, in the same book, jesus says that he wanted his disciples and him to be “one” JUST AS HE AND HIS FATHER ARE ONE.
It was speaking of being “one” in purpose. …. unless you also want to include Jesus' disciples in this trinity like concept you have.
Quote (david @ Nov. 01 2010,12:56) Quote Hades and sheloh are used interchangably to represent a state of torment
So you think Jesus was tormented for those days?Quote First of all scripture says that Jesus gave up his “spirit” “ghost” First, it's just plain wrong to translate it “ghost” for a number of reasons. “spirit” in the Bible is used in a number of ways, and is often used to refer to the … lets say, “power” inside of someone.
Example: In Psalms it says that when a noble dies, “his spirit goes out, he goes back to the ground, in that day his thoughts do perish.” (If his body is still alive, wouldn't he have thoughts?)
It can be thought of as the electricity in a fan, for example. When the electricity goes back to the source (God) the fan stops running. God breathed spirit into adam. He didn't breath a Ghost (disembodied person) into Adam.
Ok let me rephrase what i meant to say,
Those terms typcialy reference to a place of torment.
Truth it (unless you can tell me otherwise) I have no idea what he was doing for three days =)ok fine translate it as “LIFE” or whatever you want to call it david,
He gave it up, it doesnt say he was KILLED, but he was ready to go.The bible claims that Jesus is LIFE, and that God is life, and even if Jesus were to die physically, does that mean his spirit is seperated from the father??
Quote (david @ Nov. 01 2010,12:59) Quote Jesus states in John 17, that they are one, that the Father is IN HIM. I love it when people say that John says that the son and Father are one. I find it comical and fun.
Later, in the same book, jesus says that he wanted his disciples and him to be “one” JUST AS HE AND HIS FATHER ARE ONE.
It was speaking of being “one” in purpose. …. unless you also want to include Jesus' disciples in this trinity like concept you have.
Actually i didnt use it as trinity aspect because im not a trinitarian.The point was cut and dry, its very simple, Jesus claimed that the Father was in Him, and they are one, it doesnt state that they were EVER seperated.
Maybe you are misunderstanding what im trying to point out.
Quote Jehovah is God almighty of course, but not the father to anyone until Jesus revealed him as such. OK, we are off subject, but when someone is so wrong, I just have to comment.
ISAIAH 64:8
And now, O Jehovah, you are our Father.ISAIAH 63:16
“For you are our Father; although Abraham himself may not have known us and Israel himself may not recognize us, you, O Jehovah, are our Father. Our Repurchaser of long ago is your name.”Quote Actually i didnt use it as trinity aspect because im not a trinitarian.
And that's why I said “trinity like concept” and not “trinity”Quote (david @ Nov. 01 2010,12:51) Quote You are right. The OT does never talk about Jesus being used by Jehovah to create the universe BECAUSE IT DOESN'T REALLY TALK ABOUT JESUS TOO MUCH. Well, unless you include Proverbs, which many believe symbolically speaks of Jehovah using Jesus as a master worker to do these things.
Sure, but than again its never to direct when credit ususally always goes to God and not Jesus.
And the OT gives all credit to God many and many times.Truth is evidence of the preexistence of Jesus is there, but not directly involving him into anything in the OT.
The NT is the only creditation that Jesus receives for involvment in the creation process of the universe.
And its noticable that John kindof tries to plagiarize Genesis 1:1-5 with John 1:1-5all of the sudden these guys had a big revelation about Jesus.
Quote The point was cut and dry, its very simple, Jesus claimed that the Father was in Him, and they are one, it doesnt state that they were EVER seperated. Of course “it” meaning that scripture that speaks of Jehovah and Jesus being “one” doesn't speak about them separating. Never said it did. All I said was you would be blind to think that this scripture means they are “one” person because also in John, it is said that Jesus and his disciples are “one” in the same manner as Jehovah and Jesus.
Unless you also want to try to use this “one” to prove that Jesus and his disciples are the same person, then your logic is inconsistent.
You have to look at context and how similar things are said of others. We can't just blindly ignore extremely similar statments.
Quote (david @ Nov. 01 2010,13:05) Quote Jehovah is God almighty of course, but not the father to anyone until Jesus revealed him as such. OK, we are off subject, but when someone is so wrong, I just have to comment.
ISAIAH 64:8
And now, O Jehovah, you are our Father.ISAIAH 63:16
“For you are our Father; although Abraham himself may not have known us and Israel himself may not recognize us, you, O Jehovah, are our Father. Our Repurchaser of long ago is your name.”
David,
You know that the application im stating as Father is the way that Jesus is stating as Father?FYI its 3 am its possible that im making sense to only myself and not to you, and im not putting much effort.
Anyways, basically what im saying or let me rephrase, that the application of father that you presented, is in such as their Creator, the application that Jesus presented is much different and the deeper relationship between being a Son and A Father God can only happen through Jesus.
When the Jew approached God, its through Jehovah as their God, even though he has all the titles such as: Redeemer, saviour, Father, God, Healer, and such.
The Application of Father towards the World was revealed by Jesus.
Quote (david @ Nov. 01 2010,13:11) Quote The point was cut and dry, its very simple, Jesus claimed that the Father was in Him, and they are one, it doesnt state that they were EVER seperated. Of course “it” meaning that scripture that speaks of Jehovah and Jesus being “one” doesn't speak about them separating. Never said it did. All I said was you would be blind to think that this scripture means they are “one” person because also in John, it is said that Jesus and his disciples are “one” in the same manner as Jehovah and Jesus.
Unless you also want to try to use this “one” to prove that Jesus and his disciples are the same person, then your logic is inconsistent.
You have to look at context and how similar things are said of others. We can't just blindly ignore extremely similar statments.
I get it but i dont see how that apply to the point that Jesus said that God and himself are not ever seperated.
Not Just john 17, but the many times he has claimed that the Father lives IN him.
The question arises again were they ever seperated?Youngs literal translation verses King James Version,
Luke 24
Quote 52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
52 And they, having bowed before him, did turn back to Jerusalem with great joy,John 9
Quote 38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
38 and he said, 'I believe, sir,' and bowed before him.Hebrews 1
Quote 6..And let all the angels of God worship him.
6.. 'And let them bow before him — all messengers of God;Mark 5
Quote 6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
6 And, having seen Jesus from afar, he ran and bowed before him,Matthew 28
Quote 9 And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
9 and they having come near, laid hold of his feet, and did bow to him.Quote 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him:
17 and having seen him, they bowed to him,Matthew 20
Quote 20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him,
20 Then came near to him the mother of the sons of Zebedee, with her sons, bowing and asking something from him,Matthew 15
Quote 25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
YLT..25 And having come, she was bowing to him, saying, 'Sir, help me;'Matthew 14
Quote 33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him
33 and those in the boat having come, did bow to him, saying, 'Truly — God's Son art thou.'Matthew 9
Quote 18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him,
18 While he is speaking these things to them, lo, a ruler having come, was bowing to him,Matthew 8
Quote 2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
2 and lo, a leper having come, was bowing to him, saying, 'Sir, if thou art willing, thou art able to cleanse me;'Matthew 2
Quote 2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
2 Saying, 'Where is he who was born king of the Jews? for we saw his star in the east, and we came to bow to him.'Quote 8 Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
8 'Having gone — inquire ye exactly for the child, and whenever ye may have found, bring me back word, that I also having come may bow to him.'Quote 11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him:
11 and having come to the house, they found the child with Mary his mother, and having fallen down they bowed to him,Jesus said to worship only God, Jesus was a Jew, what did Jews believe the word worship to mean, when it came to worship of anything other than God?
Temples, altars, and statues were erected to the gods, …….. Prayer was offered to the gods (Ex. xx. 5, xxiii. 24, et passim), the hands were stretched out to them (Ps. xliv. 21 [A. V. 20]), they were invoked by name (I Kings xviii. et seq., xxiv.), their names were praised (Josh. xxiii. 7), knees were bent before them (I Kings xix. 18), incense was burned in their honor (I Kings xi. 8 et passim), they were invoked in the taking of oaths, and sacrifices were immolated to them (Jer. vii. 18; Ex. xxxiv. 15)….. throwing kisses to them is mentioned in Job xxxi. 13. The exchange of clothes, by which men put on women's clothes and women donned men's garments, was an idolatrous custom, and was consequently forbidden (Deut. xxii. 5). Human hair also served as a sacrifice, and the prohibition against shaving the head or having writing burned into one's body (Lev. xix. 18, 27; xxi. 5; comp. Jer. ix. 26, xxv. 23, xlix. 32) …… There were, moreover, many other forms of worship, and numerous commandments of the Pentateuch, even though they omit the term “abomination” as a synonym of idolatry, refer to polytheistic worship; foridolatry was deeply rooted in the national character, as is shown by the many proper names compounded with names of idols, so that it became necessary to make every effort for its eradication.
[unquote]That is worship.
Whether proskuneo is translated as “worship” or “bow down” does not really matter. What seems to matter is if the person or persons are doing it towards what they would consider as divinity, false or true gods. We can see that the first commandment in the Young's Literal Translation that the word 'proskuneo' is translated as “bow” and in many translations it is translated as “worship.” Therefore, if you translate all the times where Jesus is receiving 'proskuneo' as 'worship' or 'bowing down' it is still in violation of the first commandment if it is given to what people consider as divinity. As I have demonstrated in my list of occurrences where Jesus received 'proskuneo/worship/bowing down to' He had just performed or was asked to perform a supernatural act like raising the dead, healing the leper, the blind, feeding 5,000 people, calming the sea, raising from the dead Himself, etc. Obviously, the people thought that He was more than their idol statues, or their kings who had never done these miracles before their eyes. How many instances were the earthly kings or carved images bowed down to and asked to raise their dead and then their dead was raised? How many times in the Bible do you find that the earthly kings or carved images were bowed down to and asked to heal the leper or the blind, or deliver someone from demons,…and it happened? I can't think of any. Therefore, I would say that Jesus has received the 'proskuneo/worship/bowing down to' as towards a divine man from God and He did not correct ANYONE for this but received it and at times commended those people for their faith.
If He were not allowed to receive 'proskuneo/worship/bowing down to' He would have definitely forbid it. See here that both ways to translate 'proskuneo' as 'worship or bowing down to' was forbidden according to the first commandment yet we see that Jesus received this and commended those for their faith:
20:5 Young's Literal Translation
Thou dost not bow thyself to them, nor serve them: for I, Jehovah thy God, [am] a zealous God, charging iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third [generation], and on the fourth, of those hating Me,Exodus 20:5
“You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,Ps 81:9
You shall have no foreign god among you; you shall not bow down to an alien godDe 5:9
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,De 8:19
If you ever forget the LORD your God and follow other gods and worship and bow down to them, I testify against you today that you will surely be destroyed.Jos 23:16
If you violate the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them, the LORD's anger will burn against you, and you will quickly perish from the good land he has given you.”I will follow this up by reposting the many times that Jesus is proskuneo'd/worshiped/bowed down to.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 30 2010,11:29) Now for those of you who only want to put up verses using the term proskuneo that apply to the Father, this might help the readers see that there are plenty where the term 'proskuneo' is applied to the Son. Also, this is what I was asking Mike to do…so Mike, I saved you some time 
And here is a list of passages that show that Jesus is receiving the worship “proskuneo” of others and I will especially bold the supernatural acts that were done within the context.
Matt 2:1-2
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
KJVMatt 2:7-8
7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
KJVMatt 2:11-12
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
KJVMatt 8:1-4
When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.
2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
KJVMatt 9:18-35
18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.19 And Jesus arose, and followed him, and so did his disciples.20 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.23 And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise,24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.26 And the fame hereof went abroad into all that land.27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us.28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.30 And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it.31 But they, when they were departed, spread abroad his fame in all that country.32 As they went out, behold, they brought to him a dumb man possessed with a devil.33 And when the devil was cast out, the dumb spake: and the multitudes marvelled, saying, It was never so seen in Israel.34 But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils.35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.
KJVMatt 14:26-36
26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.
27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
32 And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.
33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
34 And when they were gone over, they came into the land of Gennesaret.
35 And when the men of that place had knowledge of him, they sent out into all that country round about, and brought unto him all that were diseased;
36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.
KJVMatt 15:21-28
21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
KJVMatt 20:20-28
20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
KJVMatt 28:8-10
8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre wit
h fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.
KJVMatt 28:16-20
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
KJVMark 5:1-20
5 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.14 And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.15 And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.16 And they that saw it told them how it befell to him that was possessed with the devil, and also concerning the swine.17 And they began to pray him to depart out of their coasts.18 And when he was come into the ship, he that had been possessed with the devil prayed him that he might be with him.19 Howbeit Jesus suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee.20 And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.
KJVLuke 24:44 – 53
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.John 9:30-39
30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes.
31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.
34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
KJVHeb 1:6
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
KJVTHe point of this exercise was to demonstrate that the people were recognizing Jesus as coming from God and able to do the supernatural acts…they were seeing Him as a KING from heaven and not just another earthly king and they were responding in worship towards Him. He never told them that they were violating the first commandment, not once.
Jesus is to be worshiped WITH His Father, the only true God. They are together divine.
Read the quoted post as evidence that Jesus received 'proskuneo/worship/bowing down to' within the context of doing something supernatural, for the most part.I add this from Psalms 72 about the Messiah who will receive worship from ALL the kings and service from ALL the Gentiles and that is within the plan of God:
In summary, in this passage where the Messiah is receiving proskuneo from ALL the kings and is being served by ALL the Gentiles, you agree that is ok and doesn't violate the first commandment?
Quote
Psalms 72:1 O God, give thy judgment to the king, and thy righteousness to the king’s son; 2 that he may judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.3 Let the mountains and the hills raise peace to thy people: 4 he shall judge the poor of the people in righteousness, and save the children of the needy; and shall bring low the false accuser. 5 And he shall continue as long as the sun, and before the moon for ever. 6 He shall come down as rain upon a fleece; and as drops falling upon the earth. 7 In his days shall righteousness spring up; and abundance of peace till the moon be removed. 8 And he shall have dominion from sea to sea, and from the river to the ends of the earth. 9 The Ethiopians shall fall down before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust. 10 The kings of Tharsis, and the isles, shall bring presents: the kings of the Arabians and Saba shall offer gifts. 11 And all kings shall worship him; all the Gentiles shall serve him. 12 For he has delivered the poor from the oppressor; and the needy who had no helper. 13 He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall deliver the souls of the needy. 14 He shall redeem their souls from usury and injustice: and their name shall be precious before him. 15 And he shall live, and there shall be given him of the gold of Arabia: and men shall pray for him continually; and all the day shall they praise him. 16 There shall be an esta
blishment on the earth on the tops of the mountains: the fruit thereof shall be exalted above Libanus, and they of the city shall flourish as grass of the earth.17 Let his name be blessed for ever: his name shall endure longer than the sun: and all the tribes of the earth shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
18 Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, who alone does wonders. 19 And blessed is his glorious name for ever, even for ever and ever: and all the earth shall be filled with his glory. So be it, so be it. 20 The hymns of David the son of Jessae are ended.
Obviously that is worship to the Messiah!
Kathi, again, YLT says
<>
Young's Literal Translation1 By Solomon. O God, Thy judgments to the king give, And Thy righteousness to the king's son.
2 He judgeth Thy people with righteousness, And Thy poor with judgment.
3 The mountains bear peace to the people, And the heights by righteousness.
4 He judgeth the poor of the people, Giveth deliverance to the sons of the needy, And bruiseth the oppressor.
5 They fear Thee with the sun, and before the moon, Generation — generations.
6 He cometh down as rain on mown grass, As showers — sprinkling the earth.
7 Flourish in his days doth the righteous, And abundance of peace till the moon is not.
8 And he ruleth from sea unto sea, And from the river unto the ends of earth.
9 Before him bow do the inhabitants of the dry places, And his enemies lick the dust.
10 Kings of Tarshish and of the isles send back a present. Kings of Sheba and Seba a reward bring near.
11 And all kings do bow themselves to him, All nations do serve him,
12 For he delivereth the needy who crieth, And the poor when he hath no helper,
13 He hath pity on the poor and needy, And the souls of the needy he saveth,
14 From fraud and from violence he redeemeth their soul, And precious is their blood in his eyes.
15 And he liveth, and giveth to him of the gold of Sheba, And prayeth for him continually, All the day he doth bless him.
16 There is a handful of corn in the earth, On the top of mountains, Shake like Lebanon doth its fruit, And they flourish out of the city as the herb of the earth.
17 His name is to the age, Before the sun is his name continued, And they bless themselves in him, All nations do pronounce him happy.
18 Blessed is Jehovah God, God of Israel, He alone is doing wonders,
19 And blessed is the Name of His honour to the age, And the whole earth is filled with His honour. Amen, and amen!
20 The prayers of David son of Jesse have been ended.I believe there is a difference in bowing down to one, as people do bow down in honour and respect and love, but worship..to worship something, as scripture says is for God alone, as Jesus said is for God alone, to me worship is something else. If I go into a church and they sing and raise up their hands and pray and yell out to Jesus, that is strange to me, though it was what I was raised with, I now see things different, because I know God is the Father, Jesus is the son. I see clealry what Jesus wanted us to do, He showed us the Father, He showed us how to pray, and that I do. When I pray I pray to the Father as Jesus did. But that is just me.
Words do make a difference though, as i have shown, the literal translation never says to worship Jesus, but to bow down to, there is a difference i believe.
But Kathi, if you want to worship Jesus I wont judge, my Mother does, I dont judge her ?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
