Worship God the Father only?

[david]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 29 2010,17:39)

Quote (david @ Oct. 29 2010,01:29) Quote David, I think that the word 'very' just means 'true.'  That isn't nonsensical.  I guess that it is said for emphasis. LU, can you put it into a complete senstence then?  Would it be: “Jesus is truely the God of the true God”? Is that what we think it means?–or is it Jesus being the True God of Jehovah, who is the true God? Can you just plainly state what you believe it is saying? David, How about 'Jesus is the only true begotten God, begotten from the only true God who could beget Him.'

maybe we are just confusing the use of the word “of.”

You use it to mean “from,” as in: Jesus is the God “from” the true God.

But when I see “of” I take it to mean that Jesus is the God of Jehovah God.

And so, to me, it's like saying that Jehovah is the God “of” David.
Or, Jehovah is the God of the Israelites.

We understand that those phrases mean that Israel and David had a God, Jehovah.

So when it says that Jesus is the God “of” God, to mean it seems it should mean the same thing. Hence, confusion. But if we through out the word “of” and replace it with “from” I guess you could make that make some sense.

But “very God of very God.”… confusing.

[david]

Here's my problem:

IMAGINE a line of kings, each having sons, and each of those sons become kings.

So, there is an old King named David. He gives birth to a king named…Solomon. Let's say they are both kings.

When Solomon was a child, David was Solomon's Father and Solomon's king.

David was the king of Solomon.

Then, solomon too becomes a king,
so that David is now the king of another king.

So: king (david, the Father) of a king (solomon, the Son)

But, in the “very God of very God” scenerio, we have Jesus (the Son) being the God (Jesus) of God (The Father)

It just seems that it is a contradiction to have Jesus being the God of Jehovah and Jehovah being the God of Jesus.

LU takes the “of” and understands it as “from” as though “god (Jesus) of god (Jehovah)” means “God from The God.” But, whenever I see “God of [whatever]” it always seems to mean that the “God” meantioned is the “God” “of” whatever is mentioned.

[david]

Quote

Afraid that you might see that nearly every incident that proskuneo is given to Jesus there was a supernatural event either just beforehand or asked of Him to perform?

As we know, proskyneo (to bow down, to do obeisance, to worship) is used in a number of different ways.

Sitting and prostrating. Sitting was another posture employed in prayer, the petitioner evidently kneeling and then sitting back upon his heels. (1Ch 17:16) From this position he could bow his head or rest it on his bosom. Or, as Elijah did, he might crouch to the earth and put his face between his knees. (1Ki 18:42) ‘Falling down’ or ‘falling on one’s face’ is often the way the Scriptures express a person’s prostrating himself. This was usually done by falling on the knees and bowing forward, resting on the hands or, more often, the elbows, with the head touching the ground. (Ge 24:26, 48; Ne 8:6; Nu 16:22, 45; Mt 26:39) In great sorrow or very fervent prayer the petitioner might actually lie on his face with his body outstretched. In cases of extreme distress, the petitioner might wear sackcloth. (1Ch 21:16) False worshipers also bowed down before their idols. (Ex 20:5; Nu 25:2; 2Ki 5:18; Da 3:5-12)

Bowing was more frequently used in greeting others, in approaching them on a matter of business, or in displaying a high degree of respect. Jacob bowed seven times on meeting Esau. (Ge 33:3) Solomon, even though he was king, showed respect to his mother by bowing to her.—1Ki 2:19.

[david]

continued….
Although it was a common thing for the Jews to bow before authority to show respect, Mordecai refused to bow before Haman. This was because Haman, as an Agagite, was very likely an Amalekite, concerning whom Jehovah had said that he would completely wipe out their remembrance from under the heavens and that he would have war with Amalek from generation to generation. (Ex 17:14-16) Since bowing down or prostration would have a connotation of peace toward Haman, Mordecai refused to perform this act, because he would have violated God’s command in doing so.—Es 3:5.

JESUS
When Jesus was on earth, persons would prostrate themselves before him to petition and to do obeisance to him, and he did not reprove them. (Lu 5:12; Joh 9:38) This was because he was the appointed King, the King-Designate, as he himself said: “God’s royal majesty has approached” (ED); “The kingdom of God has drawn near.” (NW, Mr 1:15) Jesus was the heir to the throne of David and therefore was rightfully honored as a king.—Mt 21:9; Joh 12:13-15.

[david]

Quote

the one they were proskuneo-ing

[david]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 30 2010,16:45)

Luke 4:8 Jesus answered, “It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.' “ Not one pen-stroke Kathi.

What people tend not to see about this verse, is that he said: “It is written.”
The quote was a quote from the Heb scriptures about “Jehovah,” the Father.
It was actually written to 'worship Jehovah your God and serve him only.'
They later substituted “Lord” much the way they did in the Heb scriptures, where God's name originally occured thousands of times.

The point is: Jesus is clearly saying to obey the written command to “worship Jehovah.”

[david]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 30 2010,15:34)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 30 2010,15:29) So if you still don't think that the Pharisees even minded at all that Jesus was given credit for opening the blind man's eyes, let alone worship, you are the one that is needing some wet clay, my friend. Really Kathi, And after reading this, and knowing how much of a thorn Jesus was in the Pharisees' sides, you STILL think a man could have worshipped him as God right in front of them?  Forget that it was Jesus who they wanted dead anyway, would Jewish Law have allowed this act to be performed before anyone or anything without penalty? Talk to David for a while.   mike

This is a point that I feel is so irritating when I talk to others.

At his trial, Jesus was never accused of claiming to be God. Believe me, that if Jesus ever claimed that, the Pharisees would have been all over it. They wanted him dead, and if Jesus said he was God, they would have said: 'This man is crazy and is actually saying he is God.' But they made no such assertion.

I don't see any indication that the Pharisees thought jesus was being worshiped.

[david]

(Exodus 34:14) For you must not prostrate yourself to another god, because Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, he is a jealous God;

[david]

What I think this comes down to is, the argument is that when it says “Jehovah” it actually means Jehovah including Jesus, his Son.

[Baker]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 30 2010,07:02)

Hi Irene, Thank you for your clear words.  I really would like to hear your definition of 'the trinity' when you get the chance. Thanks!

You worship God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit. That is a trinity. All three. Just to worship the Son is against the Commandment that Jesus gave us. You are making Jehovah God Lord and not LORD. All through the Old Testament Jehovah God is the Almighty God and LORD. Jesus was never called LORD, however He is King of Kings and Lord of Lord, the Mighty God and NOT THE ALMIGHTY GOD. Question, if you go and worship Jesus and Almighty God, why do you need a Mediator?
Deut,Exodus, 1Corinth. Ephesians and John all tells us that Jehovah God is first greater then Jesus, and above all. He is the only God to be worshiped. That is what Scriptures say. You however add to it and worship both. That is a false doctrine and not of God….
Peace Irene

[Tim Kraft]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 30 2010,14:32)

Tim: Quote Hey Mike: Like I clearly said, I don't follow mans rituals (like Peter) I follow Jesus, the rock of ages. The cornerstone of the temple, the capstone, the stumbling stone for those who are not born of spirit. Hi Tim.  I agree with this and regret even posting that scripture.  Jesus prayed to his Father from whatever bodily position he was in at the time, and I know the others kneeled as their way of showing subservience – even though scripture never tells us we must or should.  Forgive me for that, please.  I was being “argumentative” for no reason at all. peace and love, mike

Bless you mike: Your humble spirit and willingness to accept possible change is leading you into deep truthes from God. God loves a contrite heart. I will not hold anything against you, ever! We are friends even if there are times we don't agree.We are on the same path to enlightenment! Much love, TK

[shimmer]

The word worship..there are only 27 listings of the word worship/worshipping in the literal translation..

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword….ype=all

Genisis 22:5
On the third day — Abraham lifteth up his eyes, and seeth the place from afar; and Abraham saith unto his young men, `Remain by yourselves here with the ass, and I and the youth go yonder and worship, and turn back unto you.'

Isaiah 2:20
And [men] have entered into caverns of rocks, And into caves of dust, Because of the fear of Jehovah, And because of the honour of His excellency, In His rising to terrify the earth. In that day doth man cast his idols of silver, And his idols of gold, That they have made for him to worship, To moles, and to bats,

Isaiah 44:17
Half of it he hath burnt in the fire, By [this] half of it he eateth flesh, He roasteth a roasting, and is satisfied, Yea, he is warm, and saith: `Aha, I have become warm, I have enjoyed the light. And its remnant for a god he hath made — For his graven image, He falleth down to it, and worshippeth, And prayeth unto it, and he saith, `Deliver me, for my god thou [art].'

Isaiah 49:7
And He saith, `It hath been a light thing That thou art to Me for a servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, And the preserved of Israel to bring back, And I have given thee for a light of nations, To be My salvation unto the end of the earth.' Thus said Jehovah, Redeemer of Israel, His Holy One, To the despised in soul, To the abominated of a nation, To the servant of rulers: `Kings see, and have risen, princes, and worship, For the sake of Jehovah, who is faithful, The Holy of Israel, and He chooseth thee.'

Matthew 15:9
Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, This people doth draw nigh to Me with their mouth, and with the lips it doth honour Me, but their heart is far off from Me; and in vain do they worship Me, teaching teachings — commands of men.'

Mark 7:7
`Well did Isaiah prophesy concerning you, hypocrites, as it hath been written, This people with the lips doth honor Me, and their heart is far from Me; and in vain do they worship Me, teaching teachings, commands of men; for, having put away the command of God, ye hold the tradition of men,

John 4:20- 24
The woman saith to him, `Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet; our fathers in this mountain did worship, and ye — ye say that in Jerusalem is the place where it behoveth to worship.' Jesus saith to her, `Woman, believe me, that there doth come an hour, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father; ye worship what ye have not known; we worship what we have known, because the salvation is of the Jews; but, there cometh an hour, and it now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also doth seek such to worship him; God [is] a Spirit, and those worshipping Him, in spirit and truth it doth behove to worship.'The woman saith to him, `I have known that Messiah doth come, who is called Christ, when that one may come, he will tell us all things;' Jesus saith to her, `I am [he], who am speaking to thee.'

John 9:31
The man answered and said to them, `Why, in this is a wonderful thing, that ye have not known whence he is, and he opened my eyes! and we have known that God doth not hear sinners, but, if any one may be a worshipper of God, and may do His will, him He doth hear;

John 12:20
And there were certain Greeks out of those coming up that they may worship in the feast,

Acts 8:27
And having arisen, he went on, and lo, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch, a man of rank, of Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who was over all her treasure, who had come to worship to Jerusalem;

Acts 16:14
and a certain woman, by name Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, worshipping God, was hearing, whose heart the Lord did open to attend to the things spoken by Paul;

Acts 17:4
And certain of them did believe, and attached themselves to Paul and to Silas, also of the worshipping Greeks a great multitude, of the principal women also not a few.

Acts 17:7
therefore, indeed, he was reasoning in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the worshipping persons, and in the market-place every day with those who met with him.

Acts 17:23
for passing through and contemplating your objects of worship, I found also an erection on which had been inscribed: To God — unknown; whom, therefore — not knowing — ye do worship, this One I announce to you.

Acts 18:7
And having departed thence, he went to the house of a certain one, by name Justus, a worshipper of God, whose house was adjoining the synagogue,

Acts 18:13
saying — `Against the law this one doth persuade men to worship God;'

Acts 19:27
and not only is this department in danger for us of coming into disregard, but also, that of the great goddess Artemis the temple is to be reckoned for nothing, and also her greatness is about to be brought down, whom all Asia and the world doth worship.'

Acts 24:11
thou being able to know that it is not more than twelve days to me since I went up to worship in Jerusalem,

Acts 26:5
knowing me before from the first, (if they may be willing to testify,) that after the most exact sect of our worship, I lived a Pharisee;

Colossians 2:18
let no one beguile you of your prize, delighting in humble-mindedness and [in] worship of the messengers, intruding into the things he hath not seen, being vainly puffed up by the mind of his flesh, and not holding the head, from which all the body — through the joints and bands gathering supply, and being knit together — may increase with the increase of God. If, then, ye did die with the Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances? — thou mayest not touch, nor taste, nor handle — which are all for destruction with the using, after the commands and teachings of men, which are, indeed, having a matter of wisdom in will-worship, and humble-mindedness, and neglecting of body — not in any honour, unto a satisfying of the flesh.

2 Thessalonians 2:4
let not any one deceive you in any manner, because — if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed — the son of the destruction, who is opposing and is raising himself up above all called God or worshipped, so that he in the sanctuary of God as God hath sat down, shewing himself off that he is God.

Revelation 11:1-3
And there was given to me a reed like to a rod, and the messenger stood, saying, `Rise, and measure the sanctuary of God, and the altar, and those worshipping in it;

[shimmer]

John 4:20- 24

The woman saith to him, `Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet; our fathers in this mountain did worship, and ye — ye say that in Jerusalem is the place where it behoveth to worship.' Jesus saith to her, `Woman, believe me, that there doth come an hour, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father; ye worship what ye have not known; we worship what we have known, because the salvation is of the Jews; but, there cometh an hour, and it now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also doth seek such to worship him; God [is] a Spirit, and those worshipping Him, in spirit and truth it doth behove to worship.' The woman saith to him, `I have known that Messiah doth come, who is called Christ, when that one may come, he will tell us all things;' Jesus saith to her, `I am [he], who am speaking to thee.'

[Baker]

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 30 2010,22:48)

John 4:20- 24 The woman saith to him, `Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet; our fathers in this mountain did worship, and ye — ye say that in Jerusalem is the place where it behoveth to worship.' Jesus saith to her, `Woman, believe me, that there doth come an hour, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father; ye worship what ye have not known; we worship what we have known, because the salvation is of the Jews; but, there cometh an hour, and it now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also doth seek such to worship him; God [is] a Spirit, and those worshipping Him, in spirit and truth it doth behove to worship.' The woman saith to him, `I have known that Messiah doth come, who is called Christ, when that one may come, he will tell us all things;' Jesus saith to her, `I am [he], who am speaking to thee.'

Good Scripture, I find it amazing, in spite of it all , some still will worship Jesus. In most Churches all you hear on Songs is Jesus, Jesus, Jesus…… chanting His name…..not any better the Catholic Church and the Rosary.

Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

Peace and Love Irene

[Lightenup]

When you worship the Father in Truth and in spirit, you will see the Son as being as much a part of the Father as if He was His own arm, even as the radiance of His own glory.

2Ki 17:36
But the LORD, who brought you up out of Egypt with mighty power and outstretched arm, is the one you must worship. To him you shall bow down and to him offer sacrifices.

See my next post that I will bump about the Outstretched Arm being the Messiah.

All the kings WILL worship the Messiah and all the Gentiles WILL serve the Messiah:

Psalms 72:1 O God, give thy judgment to the king, and thy righteousness to the king’s son; 2 that he may judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.

3 Let the mountains and the hills raise peace to thy people: 4 he shall judge the poor of the people in righteousness, and save the children of the needy; and shall bring low the false accuser. 5 And he shall continue as long as the sun, and before the moon for ever. 6 He shall come down as rain upon a fleece; and as drops falling upon the earth. 7 In his days shall righteousness spring up; and abundance of peace till the moon be removed. 8 And he shall have dominion from sea to sea, and from the river to the ends of the earth. 9 The Ethiopians shall fall down before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust. 10 The kings of Tharsis, and the isles, shall bring presents: the kings of the Arabians and Saba shall offer gifts. 11 And all kings shall worship him; all the Gentiles shall serve him. 12 For he has delivered the poor from the oppressor; and the needy who had no helper. 13 He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall deliver the souls of the needy. 14 He shall redeem their souls from usury and injustice: and their name shall be precious before him. 15 And he shall live, and there shall be given him of the gold of Arabia: and men shall pray for him continually; and all the day shall they praise him. 16 There shall be an establishment on the earth on the tops of the mountains: the fruit thereof shall be exalted above Libanus, and they of the city shall flourish as grass of the earth.

17 Let his name be blessed for ever: his name shall endure longer than the sun: and all the tribes of the earth shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.

18 Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, who alone does wonders. 19 And blessed is his glorious name for ever, even for ever and ever: and all the earth shall be filled with his glory. So be it, so be it. 20 The hymns of David the son of Jessae are ended.

No one is saying to worship the Son as someone greater than the Father but to only worship Him as the Son, an integral part of the Father God. The Father that says He is a jealous God stands together with His Outstretched Arm when He receives proper worship. The Messiah is a natural part of the Father, the one true God. We will be one by grace…He is one with the Father by nature.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 29 2010,00:03)

Here is another example that speaks of Christ as a part of God… Quote But to whom”is the arm of the Lord revealed?” (Is 53:1) And what does this “arm” really mean?  In Deuteronomy 33:27 there is a deep promise: “The eternal God is thy refuge, and undereath are the everlasting arms.” Targum Onkelos paraphrases this saying: “These arms and the Memra (the Word, Logos) by whom the world has been created.”  The word Memra appears 599 times in the Aramaic paraphrases but not a single time in the Talmud, because this concept was identified with the word Messiah and used by the first Christians.  Targum Jonathan, for example, explains that the serpent in the wilderness relates to the Messiah: “He who raises his heart in the name of Yahweh's Memra will remain in life.” Christ is the outstretched hand of God for us.  God reveals himself by his “arm.” by the Messiah. http://www.ctsfw.net/media/pdfs/santalasufferingmessiah.pdf

The Messiah IS the Outstretched Arm of God, that is one of His names.

[Lightenup]

Irene

Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

You use this verse a lot…is the context of this verse within a context of someone worshiping the Son? No, actually the context is about those who say they worship God but neglect their elderly parents needs.

Matt 15:3-9
3 And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 “For God said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,' and, 'HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.'
5 “But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,”
6 he is not to honor his father or his mother.' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
7 “You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
8 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
9 'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'”
NASU

The context WAS NOT about the first commandment that the Jews were violating, it was about the commandment regarding honoring your father and your mother.

So, Irene, you are using one situation and taking it upon yourself to apply it to another situation…realize that.

We need to be careful as to what we say…the very next verses to the above passage:

Matt 15:10-11
10 After Jesus called the crowd to Him, He said to them, “Hear and understand.
11 “It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.”
NASU

[Lightenup]

Now for those of you who only want to put up verses using the term proskuneo that apply to the Father, this might help the readers see that there are plenty where the term 'proskuneo' is applied to the Son. Also, this is what I was asking Mike to do…so Mike, I saved you some time

And here is a list of passages that show that Jesus is receiving the worship “proskuneo” of others and I will especially bold the supernatural acts that were done within the context.

Matt 2:1-2
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
KJV

Matt 2:7-8
7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
KJV

Matt 2:11-12
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
KJV

Matt 8:1-4
When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.
2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
KJV

Matt 9:18-35
18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.19 And Jesus arose, and followed him, and so did his disciples.20 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.23 And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise,24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.26 And the fame hereof went abroad into all that land.27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us.28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.30 And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it.31 But they, when they were departed, spread abroad his fame in all that country.32 As they went out, behold, they brought to him a dumb man possessed with a devil.33 And when the devil was cast out, the dumb spake: and the multitudes marvelled, saying, It was never so seen in Israel.34 But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils.35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.
KJV

Matt 14:26-36
26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.
27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
32 And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.
33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
34 And when they were gone over, they came into the land of Gennesaret.
35 And when the men of that place had knowledge of him, they sent out into all that country round about, and brought unto him all that were diseased;
36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.
KJV

Matt 15:21-28
21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
KJV

Matt 20:20-28
20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
KJV

Matt 28:8-10
8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.
KJV

Matt 28:16-20
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
KJV

Mark 5:1-20
5 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.14 And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.15 And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.16 And they that saw it told them how it befell to him that was possessed with the devil, and also concerning the swine.17 And they began to pray him to depart out of their coasts.18 And when he was come into the ship, he that had been possessed with the devil prayed him that he might be with him.19 Howbeit Jesus suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee.20 And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.
KJV

Luke 24:44 – 53
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

John 9:30-39
30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes.
31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.
34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
KJV

Heb 1:6
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
KJV

THe point of this exercise was to demonstrate that the people were recognizing Jesus as coming from God and able to do the supernatural acts…they were seeing Him as a KING from heaven and not just another earthly king and they were responding in worship towards Him. He never told them that they were violating the first commandment, not once.

Jesus is to be worshiped WITH His Father, the only true God. They are together divine.

[Lightenup]

Quote (david @ Oct. 30 2010,01:23)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 29 2010,17:39) Quote (david @ Oct. 29 2010,01:29) Quote David, I think that the word 'very' just means 'true.'  That isn't nonsensical.  I guess that it is said for emphasis. LU, can you put it into a complete senstence then?  Would it be: “Jesus is truely the God of the true God”? Is that what we think it means?–or is it Jesus being the True God of Jehovah, who is the true God? Can you just plainly state what you believe it is saying? David, How about 'Jesus is the only true begotten God, begotten from the only true God who could beget Him.' maybe we are just confusing the use of the word “of.” You use it to mean “from,” as in: Jesus is the God “from” the true God. But when I see “of” I take it to mean that Jesus is the God of Jehovah God. And so, to me, it's like saying that Jehovah is the God “of” David. Or, Jehovah is the God of the Israelites. We understand that those phrases mean that Israel and David had a God, Jehovah. So when it says that Jesus is the God “of” God, to mean it seems it should mean the same thing.  Hence, confusion.  But if we through out the word “of” and replace it with “from” I guess you could make that make some sense. But “very God of very God.”… confusing.

That is it David. As I have said, it was never confusing to me because God has been teaching me that what He begat was like Him exactly. The begotten God OF the begetter God. Not two Father Gods, but one that is God as the Son and one that is God as the Father.

The God 'of' God is not my coined phrase but has been in the Nicene Creed since before 400 AD and is a scriptural truth from the first disciples.

[Lightenup]

Quote (david @ Oct. 30 2010,01:33)

Here's my problem:   IMAGINE a line of kings, each having sons, and each of those sons become kings. So, there is an old King named David.  He gives birth to a king named…Solomon.  Let's say they are both kings. When Solomon was a child, David was Solomon's Father and Solomon's king.   David was the king of Solomon. Then, solomon too becomes a king, so that David is now the king of another king. So: king (david, the Father) of a king (solomon, the Son) But, in the “very God of very God” scenerio, we have Jesus (the Son) being the God (Jesus) of God (The Father) It just seems that it is a contradiction to have Jesus being the God of Jehovah and Jehovah being the God of Jesus. LU takes the “of” and understands it as “from” as though “god (Jesus) of god (Jehovah)” means “God from The God.”  But, whenever I see “God of [whatever]” it always seems to mean that the “God” meantioned is the “God” “of” whatever is mentioned.

David,
The word 'God' is not always said as a position but also a being with a natural always existent divine nature. A king the way you use it in regards to Solomon and David is a position that came in due time.

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