Worship God the Father only?

[Cubes]

Yes, David, good post and thanks for the clear response to those aspects of “Is's” questions.

It also ties in to how it is that people can “worship/proskuneo” other human beings appropriately in scripture (not as GOD), and not have YHWH take offense, as we'd been discussing some pages back in the 20s and 30s I think.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (david @ Jan. 27 2007,06:30)

Wow.  Come to think of it, Cubes, you are right.  They are polytheists who try to wrap up this belief into a nice little mystery by using really big philisophical words. Now that I have Is 1:18's attention:

Nice. Gotta admire that approach.

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Is 1:18, you say: Quote Yes Moses was “as God” to Pharaoh. What does this mean?  How was Moses as God “to Pharaoh”?  Did pharaoh worship him, “as God”?  NOOOOOOO.  And if no worship was involved what does that tell us about the word “God”?  Did pharaoh think that Moses was composed of some trinity, or that he was “as” Jehovah?   Or can the word translated “God” sometimes convey a more general meaning?  What are your thoughts on this?

I agree with almost everything you wrote. YHWH made Moses a god to Pharaoh in that he made Moses his superior, i.e. an authority to him. The word 'elohim' (and 'theos') allows for this rendering, of course. So yes, this word allows for more than one meaning and the context determines which meaning is intended.

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The Father is spoken of as being God 'to Jesus.'  Yet, never is the reverse mentioned.  (just a random comment)

The Father acknowledges Him as “God” (with the article) in Hebrews 1:8, and as YHWH in Hebrews 1:10.

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I'm wondering what you think of the angels being called gods.  Yes, there is only one true God, one God who is God to all, and above all in power, mighty, strength, wisdom, etc.  But with reference to us, for example, angels could be called gods.  They are of course not “the” God, the one you refer to here:

Quite true. The context in which messengers (ministering spirits) are called “elohim” dictates that they are not being called “the God”. BTW, when I use the title “God” it's a reference to the one true God, unless it's otherwise stated, or the context makes this clear.

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I wonder what your definition of “divine” is.  My dictionaries say that it means having the nature or form of a deity or being god like.  We can fight over words on this, and I don't want to be anti-semantic

He he….I think you mean “semantic”. OOOPs, now i'm being semantic.

My definition of divinity (AKA deity):

The state of being God (that which makes God God)

So when I use the expression “deity” I am basically speaking of the eternal, unchangable, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient essence/substance/nature of the only SUPREME being, YHWH.

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so let's just look at this: “You mean there is more than One God…”  Of course, the Bible speaks of one true God, Is 1:18.  No one can argue that.  But no one can argue that the angels are called gods (and they're not false gods, they really are mighty ones).

Angels are not divine, that's the distinction that needs to be made.

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So how do we reconcile these two facts?  By understanding the meaning of the word “god” it becomes clear that in relation to others (as in relation to Pharoah, or Aaron also, Moses could be spoken of as god in relation to them)  Even Jesus has a God, his Father.

As i mentioned above, the difference between the way in which angels are properly called elohim/theos and YHWH is is deity.

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You make a bit of a mistake here,  one which is largely responsible for this whole trinity belief, and this is connecting these two ideas of yours.  Yes, there is one all powerful, almighty being, the only true God, who created heaven and earth.  Every other being is a part of His creation.  True. BUT, the word God is applied to ones who are clearly not Him, in the Bible.    I don't think we can call the angels “false gods”  They are perhaps in relation to Jehovah–they are not really mighty at all, compared to him, the Almighty.  Yet, they are “mighty ones” compared to us.  So, that term rightfully fits.  And the contradictions and mysteries disappear and fade away.

Point taken, but angels are mighty ones, they are not mighty God (el gibbor). They are creatures, not Creator. They had a beginning and were not “with” (pros) God “in the beginning”. So the sense that angels are called elohim/theos is entirely different to the sense that Yahshua is called theos, for these reasons and a plethora of others….

I hope, in my haste to write this, I've explained my position better to you.

Be well.

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
You say
“My definition of divinity (AKA deity):

The state of being God (that which makes God God)”

So being God is enough to say such is Whom we worship?
What if scripture says the Father is OUR GOD?

Should we not obey scripture or just draw our own conclusions and go from there?

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
So here the worship of God is spoken of
Revelation 14:7
and he said with a loud voice, ” Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”
Revelation 19:10
Then I fell at his feet to worship him But he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Rev 22
8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Now trinitarians claim that they have the perogative to decide which member of their trinity is referred to when God is mentioned in scripture and the fallback option seems to always be the Father. Do you think these were admonitions to us to worship the Father or not?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 28 2007,05:39)

So being God is enough to say such is Whom we worship?

Again huh? It's really unclear what you mean by this. Do you mean being “God” is qualification enough for worship? If so then YES….obviously.

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What if scripture says the Father is OUR GOD?

The Father is our God.

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Should we not obey scripture or just draw our own conclusions and go from there?

Ummmm…..no I think we should obey scripture.

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
So
is the Father your God
and the Son your God
and the Holy Spirit is your God
or is the trinity your God?

Do you worship all as your God?

Scripture does say to worship the Father
so if you also worship the Son and God's Spirit
by whose command do you do this?

[Oxy]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 28 2007,08:41)

Hi Is 1.18, So is the Father your God and the Son your God and the Holy Spirit is your God or is the trinity your God? Do you worship all as your God? Scripture does say to worship the Father so if you also worship the Son and God's Spirit by whose command do you do this?

Same old arguments.. round and round in circles.

The Father is the Father
The Son is the Son
The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit

Together they make up one God.

And if you find that hard to cope with, think of this.

You are body
You are spirit
You are soul

And together you make up one you.

Simple really.

[NickHassan]

Hi Oxy,
I am incomplete without 4
There is the Spirit of Christ.

[942767]

Hi Oxy:

“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him”.  (John 4:23)

The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit (1 Co. 2:10).  The Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father. (John 15:26)

Jesus is “the Christ the Son of the Living God”. (Matt. 16:13-17)  We are subjected to God through him (the word of God).  He is the head of the church sitting at the right hand of the Father.  (Eph. 2:23, Hebrews 1:3)  “I am the true vine and my Father is the husbandman”. (John 15:1)

“But to us (to me) there is but ONE GOD, the FATHER…” (1Co. 8:6)

God Bless

[NickHassan]

amen

[Oxy]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 29 2007,20:47)

Hi Oxy, I am incomplete without 4 There is the Spirit of Christ.

I agree Nick, but I was referring just to the makeup of the person.

[NickHassan]

Hi Oxy,
The makeup of God does not include,
and has never included flesh.
God is spirit.

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Job 33:12
Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man.
Hosea 11:9
I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
We have been told by Jesus that the Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD.
We have been told by Jesus that TRUE WORSHIPERS worship the FATHER.

That should be enough.

But for many it is not.
They see “ontological” similarities between the Father and the Son.
That TELLS them they should also worship the Son and perhaps the Spirit of God too.

We should rather listen to the one who is our master.
That is the much simpler thing to do.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
If you and I find a rock on our path and decide to worship it that does not change the nature of the rock.
It is not the true God.
But it has not become a being called a false god.
It is still just a rock.
It has become FOR US a false god.

[Phoenix]

hmm How can you worship the Father when you are too focused on the Son?

You say Nick… we are to follow Jesus.

Exactly, how would you be worshipping the Father?

Hugs
Phoenix

[NickHassan]

Hi P,
Our work here is largely to differentiate the Father from the Son as men have bluured the boundaries such that most now do not realise God actually has a son but they think the Son is part of God.

Jesus had a God whom he worshiped and prayed to in spirit and in truth, with words and with groans, alone and with others.

We follow him.

[david]

Here is the thread.

SHOULD WE “WORSHIP” JESUS?

RSV = Revised Standard Version
NIV = New International Version
NASB = New American Standard Bible
NEB = New English Bible
YLT = Young’s Literal Translation
NW = New World Translation
KJV = King James Version
JB = Jerusalem Bible
TEV = Good News Bible-Today’s English Version

THE HEBREW AND GREEK WORDS [proskynéo (Greek) and hishtachawah (Hebrew)] THAT ARE OFTEN TRANSLATED “WORSHIP,” HAVE A VARIETY OF MEANINGS.
And so the translators must decide which way to translate it.

At Hebrews 1:6 for example, the angels are instructed to “worship” Jesus in some Bibles. (RS, TEV, KJV, JB, NAB, etc.)
Whereas other Bibles translate it: “do obeisance to” (NW) or “let them bow before him.” (YLT) or “pay homage to.” (NEB)
(No matter what English term is used, the original Greek remains the same and the understanding of what it is that the angels render to Christ must accord with the rest of the Scriptures.)

THE ENGLISH WORD “WORSHIP” USED TO CARRY ANOTHER MEANING WHICH IS OBSOLETE TODAY
The older KJV renders proskyneo as “worship” in every case. But it should be noted, that back then, the English word “worship” also carried another connotation that it doesn’t today, an obsolete definition of worship:
“To honour; to regard or treat with honour or respect. To treat with signs of honour or respect; to salute, bow down to. To honour with gifts. To invest with, raise to, honour or repute; to confer honour or dignity upon.” (The encyclopaedic Oxford English Dictionary)
And so, back then, when the KJV was made, that English word “worship” may have been the right choice. But the English language has changed. Many words in the KJV now mean a completely different thing than they did when the KJV was translated. For example, to “let” used to mean to “hinder.” Today the meaning usually attached to the expression is just the opposite, to “permit.” (2 Thess. 2:7) To “prevent” used to mean to “go before” or to “precede.” Today it means to “keep from happening.” (1 Thess. 4:15) “Conversation” used to mean “conduct.” Today it most often refers to talking with another. (Phil. 1:27) And for most persons today “shambles” does not refer to a “meat market,” as it used to, but to a “scene of destruction.”—1 Cor. 10:25.
Anyway, the point of this is to show that the older influential KJV may have made no mistake in it’s rendering of proskyneo (Gk) and hishtachawah (Heb) as “worship” because back then, that English word “worship” was sometimes used as meaning simply to “honour” or “bow down” before.
Today, the meaning of this English word has changed to limit the meaning to divine worship. However, back in the 1600's, that word was used of any human lord, nobles, or magistrates. We still see traces of the old meaning in such things as calling mayors, Justices of the Peace and magistrates in Commonwealth Realms as “Your worship.”

The English language has changed. And so more and more accurate translations are breaking away from tradition and are using “worship” with reference to Jesus.

The New English Bible for example never uses the word “worship” about Jesus, with the possible exception of Rev 5:14. The NIV, RSV and NASB cut the 14 instances down to about 7. In each instance where there is a parallel in another gospel, the parallel passages all say something like fell at his feet, fell down before him, or some other explanation that is in keeping with the definition above of. Most newer versions omit Luke 24:52 as being without manuscript authority, but either way it means the same as above. Even the heavily trinitarian paraphrase Living Bible translates Matt 14:33 as “sat there, awestruck,” instead of worshipped, although the use of proskuneo would indicate that they actually fell off their seats in awe. In the KJV, many of the occurrences of the “worship” of Jesus make it clear that the meaning of prostrating is the correct understanding, by including such phrases as 'fell down” (Matt 2:11), “held him by the feet” (Matt 28:9).

Let’s actually look at how some Bibles translate certain passages:
(All translated as “worship” in the KJV)

Matt 2:2, 8, 11
RSV: worship(ed)
NIV: worship(ed)
NASB: worship(ed)
NEB: pay homage
Diaglott: do homage, reverence, honor,
no parallel passage

Matt 8:2
RSV: knelt
NIV: knelt
NASB: bowed down
NEB: bowed low
Parallel passages:
Mark 1:40 “beseeching him and kneeling down”
Luke 5:12 “fell on his face and besought him”

Matt 9:18
RSV: knelt
NIV: knelt
NASB: bowed down
NEB: bowed low
parallel passages:
Mark 5:22 “fell at his feet and besought him greatly”
Luke 8:41 “fell down at Jesus feet and besought him”

Matt 14:33
RSV: worshiped
NIV: worshiped
NASB: worshiped
NEB: fell at his feet
Living Bible: sat there awestruck
parallel passage:
Mark 6:51 “were sore amazed in themselves beyond measure and wondered”

Matt 15:25
RSV: knelt
NIV: knelt
NASB: began to bow down before him
NEB: fell at his feet
parallel passages:
Mark 7:25 “fell at his feet”

Matt 18:26
RSV: imploring
NIV: begged
NASB: prostrated himself
NEB: fell prostrate
no parallel passages

Matt 20:20
RSV: kneeling
NIV: kneeling
NASB: bowing down
NEB: bowed low
no parallel passages

Matt 28:9
RSV: worshiped
NIV: worshiped
NASB: worshiped
NEB: falling prostrate
Diaglott: prostrated to him,
no parallel passages

Matt 28:17
RSV: worshiped
NIV: worshiped
NASB: worshiped
NEB: fell prostrate
Diaglott: prostrated to him
no parallel passages, but:
compare to Matt 17:6-7

Mark 5:6
RSV: worshipped
NIV: fell on his knees in front of
NASB: bowed down before
NEB: flung himself down
parallel passage:
Luke 8:28 cried out and fell down before him

Mark 15:19
RSV: knelt in homage
NIV: falling on their knees they paid homage
NASB: kneeling and bowing before him
NEB: knelt and paid mock homage
parallel passage:
Matt 27:29 they bowed the knee before him

Luke 24:52
RSV: omitted
NIV: worshiped
NASB: some editions omit. (he NASB omitted the phrase: “and they worshiped him,” until the most recent revision, which reinstated it.)
NEB: omitted
parallel passages: Mark 16 & Acts 1 omit

John 9:38
RSV: worshiped
NIV: worshiped
NASB: worshiped
NEB: bowed
Diaglott: threw himself prostrate
no parallel passage

Acts 10:25
RSV: worshiped
NIV: in reverence
NASB: worshiped
NEB: in reverence
compare Acts 16:29

Heb 1:6
RSV: worship
NIV: worship
NASB: worship
NEB: pay him homage
May be quote from Deut 32:43 LXX proskuneo, or from Psalm 97:7, Heb: shachah

Heb 11:21
RSV: bowing in worship
NIV: worshiped
NASB: worshiped
NEB: worshipped God
quoted from Gen 47:31 bowed himself

Rev 3:9
RSV: bow down
NIV: fall down
NASB: bow down
NEB: fall down
no parallel passage

The Greek word rendered “worship” is proskynéo, which 'A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature' says was also “used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person and kissing his feet, the hem of his garment, the ground.” (Chicago, 1979, Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker; second English edition; p. 716)
The Greek word proskynéo corresponds closely to the Hebrew term hishtachawah́ in expressing the thought of obeisance and, at times, worship.

For example, this is the term used:
at Matthew 14:33 to express what the disciples did toward Jesus;
at Hebrews 1:6 to indicate what the angels are to do toward Je
sus;
at Genesis 22:5 in the Greek Septuagint to describe what Abraham did toward Jehovah;
at Genesis 23:7 to describe what Abraham did, in harmony with the custom of the time, toward people with whom he was doing business;
at 1 Kings 1:23 in the Septuagint to describe the prophet Nathan’s action on approaching King David.
at Matthew 18:26 in connection with a slave’s doing obeisance to a king.

NOTICE THOSE LAST FEW EXAMPLES AND CONSIDER WHAT THIS MEANS.
Let’s look at one more example. It’s an example of what happens when we insert the word “worship” where it clearly doesn’t belong–we get the wrong meaning.

MARK 15:19 (New King James Version)
“Then they struck Him on the head with a reed and spat on Him; and bowing the knee, they WORSHIPED Him.”
Many Bible's here have “paid homage to him,” or did “obeisance to him,” or something similar. Clearly, they were not spitting on him and at the same time worshiping him. The verse before (Mark 15:18) and Matthew 27:29 make clear that they “made fun” of him. It was in a mocking way that they did “obeisance to him,” bowing to him. They were not worshiping him and the context certainly doesn’t allow proskynéo to be translated as “worship” here.
CLEARLY, IT SHOULD NOT ALWAYS BE TRANSLATED AS “WORSHIP.”

NOW CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING:
At MATTHEW 4:10 (RS), Jesus said: “You shall worship [from proskynéo] the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.”
(At Deuteronomy 6:13, which Jesus is evidently here quoting, appears the personal name of God, the Tetragrammaton.) In harmony with that, we must understand that it is proskynéo with a particular attitude of heart and mind that should be directed only toward God.

OTHER GREEK WORDS associated with worship are drawn from eusebéo, threskeúo, and sébomai. The word eusebéo means “give godly devotion to” or “venerate, revere.” At Acts 17:23 this term is used with reference to the godly devotion or veneration that the men of Athens were giving to an “Unknown God.” From threskeúo comes the noun threskeía, understood to designate a “form of worship,” whether true or false. (Ac 26:5; Col 2:18) The true worship practiced by Christians was marked by genuine concern for the poor and complete separateness from the ungodly world. (Jas 1:26, 27) The word sébomai (Mt 15:9; Mr 7:7; Ac 18:7; 19:27) and the related term sebázomai (Ro 1:25) mean “revere; venerate; worship.” Objects of worship or of devotion are designated by the noun sébasma. (Ac 17:23; 2Th 2:4) Two other terms are from the same verb stem, with the prefix Theoś, God. These are theosebeś, meaning “God-revering” (Joh 9:31), and theosébeia, denoting “reverence of God.” (1Ti 2:10)

THE HEBREW
One of the Hebrew words conveying the idea of worship (`avadh́) basically means “serve.” (Ge 14:4; 15:13; 29:15) Serving or worshiping Jehovah required obedience to all of his commands, doing his will as a person exclusively devoted to him. (Ex 19:5; De 30:15-20; Jos 24:14, 15) Therefore, for an individual to engage in any ritual or act of devotion toward any other gods signified his abandoning true worship.—De 11:13-17; Jg 3:6, 7.

Hishtachawah́ means, basically, “bow down.” (Ge 18:2)
Such bowing might be done as an act of respect or deference toward another human, as to a king (1Sa 24:8; 2Sa 24:20; Ps 45:11),
the high priest (1Sa 2:36),
a prophet (2Ki 2:15),
or other person of authority (Ge 37:9, 10; 42:6; Ru 2:8-10),
to an elder relative (Ge 33:1-6; 48:11, 12; Ex 18:7; 1Ki 2:19),
or even to strangers as an expression of courteous regard (Ge 19:1, 2).
Abraham bowed down to the Canaanite sons of Heth from whom he sought to buy a burial place. (Ge 23:7)
Isaac’s blessing on Jacob called for national groups and Jacob’s own “brothers” to bow down to him. (Ge 27:29; compare 49:8.)
When men started to bow down before David’s son Absalom, he grabbed them and kissed them, evidently to further his political ambitions by making a show of putting himself on a level with them. (2Sa 15:5, 6)
Mordecai refused to prostrate himself before Haman, not because he viewed the practice as wrong in itself, but doubtless because this high Persian official was an accursed Amalekite by descent.—Es 3:1-6.

FROM THE ABOVE EXAMPLES IT IS CLEAR THAT THIS HEBREW TERM OF ITSELF DOES NOT NECESSARILY HAVE A RELIGIOUS SENSE OR SIGNIFY WORSHIP.
Nevertheless, in a large number of cases it is used in connection with worship, either of the true God (Ex 24:1; Ps 95:6; Isa 27:13; 66:23) or of false gods. (De 4:19; 8:19; 11:16)

Bowing down to humans as an act of respect was admissible, but bowing to anyone other than Jehovah as a deity was prohibited by God. (Ex 23:24; 34:14) Similarly, the worshipful bowing down to religious images or to any created thing was positively condemned. (Ex 20:4, 5; Le 26:1; De 4:15-19; Isa 2:8, 9, 20, 21) Thus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, when certain of Jehovah’s servants prostrated themselves before angels, they only did so to show they recognized that these were God’s representatives, not to render obeisance to them as deities.—Jos 5:13-15; Ge 18:1-3.

The Greek proskynéo corresponds closely to the Hebrew hishtachawah́ as to conveying the thought of both obeisance to creatures and worship to God or a deity. The manner of expressing the obeisance is perhaps not so prominent in proskynéo as in hishtachawah́, where the Hebrew term graphically conveys the thought of prostration or bowing down. Scholars derive the Greek term from the verb kynéo, “kiss.” The usage of the word in the Christian Greek Scriptures (as also in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures) shows that persons to whose actions the term is applied prostrated themselves or bowed down.—Mt 2:11; 18:26; 28:9.

As with the Hebrew term, the context must be considered to determine whether proskynéo refers to obeisance solely in the form of deep respect or obeisance in the form of religious worship.
Where reference is directly to God (Joh 4:20-24; 1Co 14:25; Re 4:10) or to false gods and their idols (Ac 7:43; Re 9:20), it is evident that the obeisance goes beyond that acceptably or customarily rendered to men and enters the field of worship. So, too, where the object of the obeisance is left unstated, its being directed to God is understood. (Joh 12:20; Ac 8:27; 24:11; Heb 11:21; Re 11:1)
ON THE OTHER HAND, THE ACTION OF THOSE OF “THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN” WHO ARE MADE TO “COME AND DO OBEISANCE” BEFORE THE FEET OF CHRISTIANS IS CLEARLY NOT WORSHIP. (Re 3:9.) Yet, some Bible’s translate it as “worship.” Indiscriminately translating these words as “worship” is wrong.

HERE IS THE OBVIOUS CONCLUSION, THE POINT OF THIS POST:
While some translators use the word “worship” in the majority of cases where proskynéo describes persons’ actions toward Jesus, the evidence does not warrant one’s reading too much into this rendering. Rather, the circumstances that evoked the obeisance correspond very closely to those producing obeisance to the earlier prophets and kings. (Compare Mt 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; 20:20 with 1Sa 25:23, 24; 2Sa 14:4-7; 1Ki 1:16; 2Ki 4:36, 37.) The very expressions of those involved often reveal that, while they clearly recognized Jesus as God’s representative, they rendered obeisance to him, not as to God or a deity, but as “God’s Son,” the foretold “Son of man,” the Messiah with divine authority. On many occasions their obeisance expressed a gratitude for divine revelation or evidence of fa
vor like that expressed in earlier times.—Mt 14:32, 33; 28:5-10, 16-18; Lu 24:50-52; Joh 9:35, 38.

While earlier prophets and also angels had accepted obeisance, Peter stopped Cornelius from rendering such to him, and the angel or angels of John’s vision twice stopped John from doing so, referring to himself as “a fellow slave” and concluding with the exhortation to “worship God [toi Theoí proskýneson].” (Ac 10:25, 26; Re 19:10; 22:8, 9) Evidently Christ’s coming had brought in new relationships affecting standards of conduct toward others of God’s servants. He taught his disciples that “one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers . . . your Leader is one, the Christ” (Mt 23:8-12), for it was in him that the prophetic figures and types found their fulfillment, even as the angel told John that “the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying.” (Re 19:10) Jesus was David’s Lord, the greater than Solomon, the prophet greater than Moses. (Lu 20:41-43; Mt 12:42; Ac 3:19-24) The obeisance rendered those men prefigured that due Christ. Peter therefore rightly refused to let Cornelius make too much of him.

On the other hand, Christ Jesus has been exalted by his Father to a position second only to God.
PHILIPPIANS 2:9-11
“. . . so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” (Compare Da 7:13, 14, 27.)

Jesus himself emphatically stated to Satan that “it is Jehovah your God you must worship [form of proskynéo], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.” (Mt 4:8-10; Lu 4:7, 8) Similarly, the angel(s) told John to “worship God” (Re 19:10; 22:9), and this injunction came after Jesus’ resurrection and exaltation, showing that matters had not changed in this regard. True, Psalm 97, which the apostle evidently quotes at Hebrews 1:6, refers to Jehovah God as the object of the ‘bowing down,’ and still this text was applied to Christ Jesus. (Ps 97:1, 7) However, the apostle previously had shown that the resurrected Christ is “the reflection of [God’s] glory and the exact representation of his very being.” (Heb 1:1-3) Hence, if what we understand as “worship” is apparently directed to the Son by angels, it is in reality being directed through him to Jehovah God, the Sovereign Ruler, “the One who made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters.” (Re 14:7; 4:10, 11; 7:11, 12; 11:16, 17; compare 1Ch 29:20; Re 5:13, 14; 21:22.) On the other hand, the renderings “bow before” and ‘pay homage’ (instead of “worship”) are in no way out of harmony with the original language, either the Hebrew of Psalm 97:7 or the Greek of Hebrews 1:6, for such translations convey the basic sense of both hishtachawah́ and proskynéo.

[Tim2]

Thanks David,

I see that there are three instances (Abraham, Nathan, Matthew 18 Parable) of proskunein occuring toward a person other than YHWH. Thanks.

I will say, it makes sense that you bow before a king (as in Nathan and Matthew 18). We would still be called to bow to a human king today if we had one. And Abraham did it as a sign of respect.

But, as you say, it's often worship. Hebrews 1:6 is clearly in the sense of worship. You say that the angels would worship YHWH through Jesus. So you believe that YHWH is completely veiled from creation, except through Jesus? But YHWH reveals Himself through what you believe to be part of the creation, Jesus?

Tim

[NickHassan]

Hi Tim 2,
2cor 5,
” God was IN Christ reconciling the world to Himself”
Not AS CHRIST,but IN CHRIST.
The vessel is not the contents of the vessel that was filled at the Jordan.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (david @ April 04 2007,07:57)

Here is the thread. SHOULD WE “WORSHIP” JESUS? RSV = Revised Standard Version NIV = New International Version NASB = New American Standard Bible NEB = New English Bible YLT = Young’s Literal Translation NW = New World Translation KJV = King James Version JB = Jerusalem Bible TEV = Good News Bible-Today’s English Version THE HEBREW AND GREEK WORDS [proskynéo (Greek) and hishtachawah (Hebrew)] THAT ARE OFTEN TRANSLATED “WORSHIP,” HAVE A VARIETY OF MEANINGS.   And so the translators must decide which way to translate it. At Hebrews 1:6 for example, the angels are instructed to “worship” Jesus in some Bibles. (RS, TEV, KJV, JB, NAB, etc.) Whereas other Bibles translate it: “do obeisance to” (NW) or “let them bow before him.” (YLT) or “pay homage to.” (NEB) (No matter what English term is used, the original Greek remains the same and the understanding of what it is that the angels render to Christ must accord with the rest of the Scriptures.) THE ENGLISH WORD “WORSHIP” USED TO CARRY ANOTHER MEANING WHICH IS OBSOLETE TODAY The older KJV renders proskyneo as “worship” in every case.  But it should be noted, that back then, the English word “worship” also carried another connotation that it doesn’t today, an obsolete definition of worship: “To honour; to regard or treat with honour or respect. To treat with signs of honour or respect; to salute, bow down to. To honour with gifts. To invest with, raise to, honour or repute; to confer honour or dignity upon.” (The encyclopaedic Oxford English Dictionary) And so, back then, when the KJV was made, that English word “worship” may have been the right choice.  But the English language has changed.  Many words in the KJV now mean a completely different thing than they did when the KJV was translated.  For example, to “let” used to mean to “hinder.” Today the meaning usually attached to the expression is just the opposite, to “permit.” (2 Thess. 2:7)  To “prevent” used to mean to “go before” or to “precede.” Today it means to “keep from happening.” (1 Thess. 4:15) “Conversation” used to mean “conduct.” Today it most often refers to talking with another. (Phil. 1:27) And for most persons today “shambles” does not refer to a “meat market,” as it used to, but to a “scene of destruction.”—1 Cor. 10:25. Anyway, the point of this is to show that the older influential KJV may have made no mistake in it’s rendering of proskyneo (Gk) and hishtachawah (Heb) as “worship” because back then, that English word “worship” was sometimes used as meaning simply to “honour” or “bow down” before.   Today, the meaning of this English word has changed to limit the meaning to divine worship.  However, back in the 1600's, that word was used of any human lord, nobles, or magistrates.  We still see traces of the old meaning in such things as calling mayors, Justices of the Peace and magistrates in Commonwealth Realms as “Your worship.” The English language has changed.  And so more and more accurate translations are breaking away from tradition and are using “worship” with reference to Jesus. The New English Bible for example never uses the word “worship” about Jesus, with the possible exception of Rev 5:14. The NIV, RSV and NASB cut the 14 instances down to about 7. In each instance where there is a parallel in another gospel, the parallel passages all say something like fell at his feet, fell down before him, or some other explanation that is in keeping with the definition above of. Most newer versions omit Luke 24:52 as being without manuscript authority, but either way it means the same as above. Even the heavily trinitarian paraphrase Living Bible translates Matt 14:33 as “sat there, awestruck,” instead of worshipped, although the use of proskuneo would indicate that they actually fell off their seats in awe. In the KJV, many of the occurrences of the “worship” of Jesus make it clear that the meaning of prostrating is the correct understanding, by including such phrases as 'fell down” (Matt 2:11), “held him by the feet” (Matt 28:9). Let’s actually look at how some Bibles translate certain passages: (All translated as “worship” in the KJV) Matt 2:2, 8, 11 RSV: worship(ed) NIV: worship(ed) NASB: worship(ed) NEB: pay homage Diaglott: do homage, reverence, honor, no parallel passage Matt 8:2 RSV: knelt NIV: knelt NASB: bowed down NEB: bowed low Parallel passages: Mark 1:40 “beseeching him and kneeling down” Luke 5:12 “fell on his face and besought him” Matt 9:18 RSV: knelt NIV: knelt NASB: bowed down NEB: bowed low parallel passages: Mark 5:22 “fell at his feet and besought him greatly” Luke 8:41 “fell down at Jesus feet and besought him” Matt 14:33 RSV: worshiped NIV: worshiped NASB: worshiped NEB: fell at his feet Living Bible: sat there awestruck parallel passage: Mark 6:51 “were sore amazed in themselves beyond measure and wondered” Matt 15:25 RSV: knelt NIV: knelt NASB: began to bow down before him NEB: fell at his feet parallel passages: Mark 7:25 “fell at his feet” Matt 18:26 RSV: imploring NIV: begged NASB: prostrated himself NEB: fell prostrate no parallel passages Matt 20:20 RSV: kneeling NIV: kneeling NASB: bowing down NEB: bowed low no parallel passages Matt 28:9 RSV: worshiped NIV: worshiped NASB: worshiped NEB: falling prostrate Diaglott: prostrated to him, no parallel passages Matt 28:17 RSV: worshiped NIV: worshiped NASB: worshiped NEB: fell prostrate Diaglott: prostrated to him no parallel passages, but: compare to Matt 17:6-7 Mark 5:6 RSV: worshipped NIV: fell on his knees in front of NASB: bowed down before NEB: flung himself down parallel passage: Luke 8:28 cried out and fell down before him Mark 15:19 RSV: knelt in homage NIV: falling on their knees they paid homage NASB: kneeling and bowing before him NEB: knelt and paid mock homage parallel passage: Matt 27:29 they bowed the knee before him Luke 24:52 RSV: omitted NIV: worshiped NASB: some editions omit. (he NASB omitted the phrase: “and they worshiped him,” until the most recent revision, which reinstated it.) NEB: omitted parallel passages: Mark 16 & Acts 1 omit John 9:38 RSV: worshiped NIV: worshiped NASB: worshiped NEB: bowed Diaglott: threw himself prostrate no parallel passage Acts 10:25 RSV: worshiped NIV: in reverence NASB: worshiped NEB: in reverence compare Acts 16:29 Heb 1:6 RSV: worship NIV: worship NASB: worship NEB: pay him homage May be quote from Deut 32:43 LXX proskuneo, or from Psalm 97:7, Heb: shachah Heb 11:21 RSV: bowing in worship NIV: worshiped NASB: worshiped NEB: worshipped God quoted from Gen 47:31 bowed himself Rev 3:9 RSV: bow down NIV: fall down NASB: bow down NEB: fall down no parallel passage The Greek word rendered “worship” is proskynéo, which 'A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature' says was also “used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person and kissing his feet, the hem of his garment, the ground.” (Chicago, 1979, Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker; second English edition; p. 716) The Greek word proskynéo corresponds closely to the Hebrew term hishtachawah́ in expressin g the thought of obeisance and, at times, worship. For example, this is the term used: at Matthew 14:33 to express what the disciples did toward Jesus; at Hebrews 1:6 to indicate what the angels are to do toward Jesus; at Genesis 22:5 in the Greek Septuagint to describe what Abraham did toward Jehovah; at Genesis 23:7 to describe what Abraham did, in harmony with the custom of the time, toward people with whom he was doing business; at 1 Kings 1:23 in the Septuagint to describe the prophet Nathan’s action on approaching King David. at Matthew 18:26 in connection with a slave’s doing obeisance to a king. NOTICE THOSE LAST FEW EXAMPLES AND CONSIDER WHAT THIS MEANS. Let’s look at one more example.  It’s an example of what happens when we insert the word “worship” where it clearly doesn’t belong–we get the wrong meaning. MARK 15:19 (New King James Version) “Then they struck Him on the head with a reed and spat on Him; and bowing the knee, they WORSHIPED Him.” Many Bible's here have “paid homage to him,” or did “obeisance to him,” or something similar.  Clearly, they were not spitting on him and at the same time worshiping him.  The verse before (Mark 15:18) and Matthew 27:29 make clear that they “made fun” of him.  It was in a mocking way that they did “obeisance to him,” bowing to him.  They were not worshiping him and the context certainly doesn’t allow proskynéo to be translated as “worship” here. CLEARLY, IT SHOULD NOT ALWAYS BE TRANSLATED AS “WORSHIP.” NOW CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING: At MATTHEW 4:10 (RS), Jesus said: “You shall worship [from proskynéo] the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.” (At Deuteronomy 6:13, which Jesus is evidently here quoting, appears the personal name of God, the Tetragrammaton.)  In harmony with that, we must understand that it is proskynéo with a particular attitude of heart and mind that should be directed only toward God. OTHER GREEK WORDS associated with worship are drawn from eusebéo, threskeúo, and sébomai. The word eusebéo means “give godly devotion to” or “venerate, revere.”  At Acts 17:23 this term is used with reference to the godly devotion or veneration that the men of Athens were giving to an “Unknown God.” From threskeúo comes the noun threskeía, understood to designate a “form of worship,” whether true or false. (Ac 26:5; Col 2:18) The true worship practiced by Christians was marked by genuine concern for the poor and complete separateness from the ungodly world. (Jas 1:26, 27) The word sébomai (Mt 15:9; Mr 7:7; Ac 18:7; 19:27) and the related term sebázomai (Ro 1:25) mean “revere; venerate; worship.” Objects of worship or of devotion are designated by the noun sébasma. (Ac 17:23; 2Th 2:4) Two other terms are from the same verb stem, with the prefix Theoś, God. These are theosebeś, meaning “God-revering” (Joh 9:31), and theosébeia, denoting “reverence of God.” (1Ti 2:10) THE HEBREW One of the Hebrew words conveying the idea of worship (`avadh́) basically means “serve.” (Ge 14:4; 15:13; 29:15) Serving or worshiping Jehovah required obedience to all of his commands, doing his will as a person exclusively devoted to him. (Ex 19:5; De 30:15-20; Jos 24:14, 15) Therefore, for an individual to engage in any ritual or act of devotion toward any other gods signified his abandoning true worship.—De 11:13-17; Jg 3:6, 7. Hishtachawah́ means, basically, “bow down.” (Ge 18:2) Such bowing might be done as an act of respect or deference toward another human, as to a king (1Sa 24:8; 2Sa 24:20; Ps 45:11), the high priest (1Sa 2:36), a prophet (2Ki 2:15), or other person of authority (Ge 37:9, 10; 42:6; Ru 2:8-10), to an elder relative (Ge 33:1-6; 48:11, 12; Ex 18:7; 1Ki 2:19), or even to strangers as an expression of courteous regard (Ge 19:1, 2). Abraham bowed down to the Canaanite sons of Heth from whom he sought to buy a burial place. (Ge 23:7) Isaac’s blessing on Jacob called for national groups and Jacob’s own “brothers” to bow down to him. (Ge 27:29; compare 49:8.) When men started to bow down before David’s son Absalom, he grabbed them and kissed them, evidently to further his political ambitions by making a show of putting himself on a level with them. (2Sa 15:5, 6) Mordecai refused to prostrate himself before Haman, not because he viewed the practice as wrong in itself, but doubtless because this high Persian official was an accursed Amalekite by descent.—Es 3:1-6. FROM THE ABOVE EXAMPLES IT IS CLEAR THAT THIS HEBREW TERM OF ITSELF DOES NOT NECESSARILY HAVE A RELIGIOUS SENSE OR SIGNIFY WORSHIP.   Nevertheless, in a large number of cases it is used in connection with worship, either of the true God (Ex 24:1; Ps 95:6; Isa 27:13; 66:23) or of false gods. (De 4:19; 8:19; 11:16) Bowing down to humans as an act of respect was admissible, but bowing to anyone other than Jehovah as a deity was prohibited by God. (Ex 23:24; 34:14) Similarly, the worshipful bowing down to religious images or to any created thing was positively condemned. (Ex 20:4, 5; Le 26:1; De 4:15-19; Isa 2:8, 9, 20, 21) Thus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, when certain of Jehovah’s servants prostrated themselves before angels, they only did so to show they recognized that these were God’s representatives, not to render obeisance to them as deities.—Jos 5:13-15; Ge 18:1-3. The Greek proskynéo corresponds closely to the Hebrew hishtachawah́ as to conveying the thought of both obeisance to creatures and worship to God or a deity. The manner of expressing the obeisance is perhaps not so prominent in proskynéo as in hishtachawah́, where the Hebrew term graphically conveys the thought of prostration or bowing down. Scholars derive the Greek term from the verb kynéo, “kiss.” The usage of the word in the Christian Greek Scriptures (as also in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures) shows that persons to whose actions the term is applied prostrated themselves or bowed down.—Mt 2:11; 18:26; 28:9. As with the Hebrew term, the context must be considered to determine whether proskynéo refers to obeisance solely in the form of deep respect or obeisance in the form of religious worship. Where reference is directly to God (Joh 4:20-24; 1Co 14:25; Re 4:10) or to false gods and their idols (Ac 7:43; Re 9:20), it is evident that the obeisance goes beyond that acceptably or customarily rendered to men and enters the field of worship. So, too, where the object of the obeisance is left unstated, its being directed to God is understood. (Joh 12:20; Ac 8:27; 24:11; Heb 11:21; Re 11:1) ON THE OTHER HAND, THE ACTION OF THOSE OF “THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN” WHO ARE MADE TO “COME AND DO OBEISANCE” BEFORE THE FEET OF CHRISTIANS IS CLEARLY NOT WORSHIP. (Re 3:9.)  Yet, some Bible’s translate it as “worship.”  Indiscriminately translating these words as “worship” is wrong. HERE IS THE OBVIOUS CONCLUSION, THE POINT OF THIS POST: While some translators use the word “worship” in the majority of cases where proskynéo describes persons’ actions toward Jesus, the evidence does not warrant one’s reading too much into this rendering. Rather, the circumstances that evoked the obeisance correspond very closely to those producing obeisance to the earlier prophets and kings. (Compare Mt 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; 20:20 with 1Sa 25:23, 24; 2Sa 14:4-7; 1Ki 1:16; 2Ki 4:36, 37.) The very expressions of those involved often reveal that, while they clearly recognized Jesus as God’s representative, they re ndered obeisance to him, not as to God or a deity, but as “God’s Son,” the foretold “Son of man,” the Messiah with divine authority. On many occasions their obeisance expressed a gratitude for divine revelation or evidence of favor like that expressed in earlier times.—Mt 14:32, 33; 28:5-10, 16-18; Lu 24:50-52; Joh 9:35, 38. While earlier prophets and also angels had accepted obeisance, Peter stopped Cornelius from rendering such to him, and the angel or angels of John’s vision twice stopped John from doing so, referring to himself as “a fellow slave” and concluding with the exhortation to “worship God [toi Theoí proskýneson].” (Ac 10:25, 26; Re 19:10; 22:8, 9) Evidently Christ’s coming had brought in new relationships affecting standards of conduct toward others of God’s servants. He taught his disciples that “one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers . . . your Leader is one, the Christ” (Mt 23:8-12), for it was in him that the prophetic figures and types found their fulfillment, even as the angel told John that “the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying.” (Re 19:10) Jesus was David’s Lord, the greater than Solomon, the prophet greater than Moses. (Lu 20:41-43; Mt 12:42; Ac 3:19-24) The obeisance rendered those men prefigured that due Christ. Peter therefore rightly refused to let Cornelius make too much of him. On the other hand, Christ Jesus has been exalted by his Father to a position second only to God. PHILIPPIANS 2:9-11 “. . . so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” (Compare Da 7:13, 14, 27.) Jesus himself emphatically stated to Satan that “it is Jehovah your God you must worship [form of proskynéo], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.” (Mt 4:8-10; Lu 4:7, 8) Similarly, the angel(s) told John to “worship God” (Re 19:10; 22:9), and this injunction came after Jesus’ resurrection and exaltation, showing that matters had not changed in this regard. True, Psalm 97, which the apostle evidently quotes at Hebrews 1:6, refers to Jehovah God as the object of the ‘bowing down,’ and still this text was applied to Christ Jesus. (Ps 97:1, 7) However, the apostle previously had shown that the resurrected Christ is “the reflection of [God’s] glory and the exact representation of his very being.” (Heb 1:1-3) Hence, if what we understand as “worship” is apparently directed to the Son by angels, it is in reality being directed through him to Jehovah God, the Sovereign Ruler, “the One who made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters.” (Re 14:7; 4:10, 11; 7:11, 12; 11:16, 17; compare 1Ch 29:20; Re 5:13, 14; 21:22.) On the other hand, the renderings “bow before” and ‘pay homage’ (instead of “worship”) are in no way out of harmony with the original language, either the Hebrew of Psalm 97:7 or the Greek of Hebrews 1:6, for such translations convey the basic sense of both hishtachawah́ and proskynéo.

That's impressive writing David. Did you write this post yourself?

[Author]

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