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Quote WJ, Reading your response in answer to t8, it just came to my mind to ask you if by chance God, whom we understand to be the highest and sovereign king of all, has at any time referred to someone besides Jesus as “king” for instance. I can't be sure but I think he has, e.g. Pharoah, king of Egypt, king of persia, etc.
If so, do you think by him calling someone else “king” he intended for such a king to be regarded as his equal or the same being as he, etc. No.
Similarly, to call his son God is to acknowledge and lift him up in a glorious way but it is not to mean he was speaking of himself or recognizing his son as his equal.
If you can be objective about God calling others “king,” when he is clearly THE KING of all, why do you find it difficult do be unbiased about his calling Jesus “God?”
Honest question.
Cubes
Thats a very logical human interpretation. But it holds no wieght to the truth.
First of all your premise is wrong. You assume that Jesus isn't the “King Of Kings” or God.
Secondly, you do the scripture violence by saying the Father meant anything other than what he said.
The Father didnt expect us to figure your analogy. Niether did the writers inspired by the Holy Spirit have your rule of interpretation in mind.
I could list many scriptures that are irrefutable evidence that Yeshua is God.
But I only need one! If you remove or reject the scripture that looks you in the face then you are not on solid foundation.
Tell you what Instead of listing them all. Why dont you give me your take on John 1:1. Show me why you dont believe it means Jesus is God, one with the Father and the Holy Ghost.
The scriptures speak for them selves. Heres my take, an
earlier post…Jn 1:1
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” The “Word” refers to Jesus (v17), the only begotten of the Father who became flesh and dwelt among us (v14). This affirms that Jesus is a separate individual from the Father (He was with God), and yet He Himself possesses Deity (He was God). Note that the context affirms both Jesus' Deity and His humanity: God became flesh and dwelt among us.
Some argue that the Greek “was God” has no definite article before “God,” whereas there is a definite article in “with God.” Hence, it is claimed that Jesus is god in a lesser sense, different from the Father. Hence, the “New World Translation” says, “the word was a god.” However,
(1) All major standard translations say, “the Word was God None say “a god.” Hence they contradict the NWT. (See NKJV, KJV, ASV, NASB, RSV, NIV, etc.).
(2) If Jesus is “god” in a lesser sense than the Father, then we would have two different true gods! Clearly Jesus is not a false god; hence He is true God. But if He is “god” in a different sense than the Father, that would violate the passages saying there is one true God!
3) Many Scriptures use “God” (Gk. theos) without an article to refer to the true God. See Matthew 5:9; 6:24; Luke 1:35,78; John 1:6,12,13,18; Romans 17:17; and many others.
(4) Many Scriptures use “God” both with and without an article in the same context, yet both uses clearly refer to the true GodSee Matthew 4:3,4; 12:28; Luke 20:37,38; John 3:2; 13:3; Acts 5:29,30; Romans 1:7,8,17-19; 2:16,17; 3:5,22,23; 4:2,3; etc.
(5) The context of John 1:1-3 shows that Jesus is eternal and created all things. (See our later discussion on the character and works of Jesus). To call Him “God” in such a context must surely mean He is God in the same exalted sense as the Father.
If the NWT distinction is valid, then these passages must prove conclusively that Jesus is God in the same sense as the Father.
So John 1:1 refers to both Jesus and the Father as “God” in a context that affirms the eternal existence of Jesus and that He is the Creator of all (v1-3). This would be blasphemy if He does not possess Deity as the Father does.
[Marshall, Vine, Vincent, Lenski, Robertson, and other Greek scholars contend that the article is absent from “was God” in John 1:1, not to imply that Jesus was a “lesser god,” but simply to identify “God” as the predicate nominative despite the fact it precedes the verb for emphasis (Colwell's Rule). If it had the definite article, that would imply that “the Word” and the Father are the same person. In any case, the Scriptures listed above clearly show that the lack of the article does not prove Jesus is God in a lesser sense than the Father.
John 1:1
KJV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.NKJV
IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.NLT
In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God.NIV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.ESV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NASB
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.RSV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.ASV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.YLT
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;Darbys
In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Websters
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.HNV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Of course this is the big one that the Apostle John should have left out, right?
Darn it dosnt fit my Arian view. So I think I will just write another Bible or Just forget it dosnt exist.
II Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?I Cor 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?Acts 3
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:I will ask you also Cubes, who is that thats living in you?
Quote All of creation came through this expressed divine “vocalisation” of God, who was with God in the beginning. NH
Where is the scripture that says that Jesus is the “expressed divine “vocalisation” of God,?
Quote Hi W, I believe these verses lay a foundation for the crucified and risen Lamb of God:
OK Cubes.
I concede I overstated myself, however my response was to say that though the Saducees and the Pharasees had the scriptures that foretold of Jesus, yet they missed him because they didnt have revelation knowledge of who Jesus was.
This is still going on today.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 24 2006,07:12) Quote All of creation came through this expressed divine “vocalisation” of God, who was with God in the beginning. NH
Where is the scripture that says that Jesus is the “expressed divine “vocalisation” of God,?
Hi W,
Not entirely my words but quoting the post and accepting that the Word proceeded or was expressed from God. A Word is spoken into existence.Words proceed from us.
Matthew 15:18
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man
Mark 7:21
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Matthew 15:18
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Luke 4:22
And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?
As also from God.
Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of GodJesus is the Word who proceeded from, and was sent by God
John 8:42
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.God did not send a thought or plan from within himself but sent the Word who had proceeded from Him.
Of course the Spirit ever proceeds from The Source, The Father.
John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 24 2006,12:16) Quote Hi W, I believe these verses lay a foundation for the crucified and risen Lamb of God:
OK Cubes.
I concede I overstated myself, however my response was to say that though the Saducees and the Pharasees had the scriptures that foretold of Jesus, yet they missed him because they didnt have revelation knowledge of who Jesus was.
This is still going on today.
Good on you, W, but I am not sure what your concession was for so please state it so we can be clear and move on to the next point.Hi W,
You ask who is living in us so the same should be asked of you.
Is it the Spirit of God or do you have three Spirits within you?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 24 2006,12:09) Quote WJ, Reading your response in answer to t8, it just came to my mind to ask you if by chance God, whom we understand to be the highest and sovereign king of all, has at any time referred to someone besides Jesus as “king” for instance. I can't be sure but I think he has, e.g. Pharoah, king of Egypt, king of persia, etc.
If so, do you think by him calling someone else “king” he intended for such a king to be regarded as his equal or the same being as he, etc. No.
Similarly, to call his son God is to acknowledge and lift him up in a glorious way but it is not to mean he was speaking of himself or recognizing his son as his equal.
If you can be objective about God calling others “king,” when he is clearly THE KING of all, why do you find it difficult do be unbiased about his calling Jesus “God?”
Honest question.
Cubes
Thats a very logical human interpretation. But it holds no wieght to the truth.
I disagree.Here is why: if we are dealing with 10+10=20 and you are saying the answer is 13, how do we determine the right answer? We have to go back to basics and the foundations that were laid before… we follow those patterns and all the information given, and by them, we know when we have the right answer as the patterns fit. Consider Romans 1:20 again: the INVISIBLE THINGS OF HIM (we have never seen him or at anytime heard his voice) ***FROM THE CREATION OF THE WORLD ARE CLEARLY SEEN (visible patterns)***BEING UNDERSTOOD (give us clues about his nature) BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE (back to my biblical pattern or logic).
So, I ask again, if God calls Abraham the FATHER of many nations out of whom would come many kings, did God intend that Abraham is the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY? How do you determine that Abraham is not? Because God has already established his own identity in relationship to Abraham and he's given us reasoning capacities to determine the difference b/n the two of them.
Similarly, Jesus in his exaltedness above all creation is yet subject to his God and Father as per all the multitudes of scriptures where these things have been explained.
Please note that I do not place anyone above Christ except his Father and God. Sometimes you trinitarians get offended as though we preach and put lesser beings above Christ.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 24 2006,12:09) First of all your premise is wrong. You assume that Jesus isn't the “King Of Kings” or God. Secondly, you do the scripture violence by saying the Father meant anything other than what he said.
Abraham is the father of Kings, as Sarah is the mother of Kings…Degrees of glory ….
These are the things of the creation that are clearly seen by which evidence is shown and understood regarding the invisible things of HIM.Yes, Jesus is king of kings, the mighty God whose sceptor is a sceptor of righteousness, to whom all the kings of the earth are subject BUT he is subject to the Almighty.
The Almighty is subject to no one.
You cannot extract or ignore all those bodies of scriptural evidence without ending up with a very thin edition of the scriptures and a false image of the True God and his Christ.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 24 2006,12:09) The Father didnt expect us to figure your analogy. Niether did the writers inspired by the Holy Spirit have your rule of interpretation in mind. I could list many scriptures that are irrefutable evidence that Yeshua is God.
But I only need one! If you remove or reject the scripture that looks you in the face then you are not on solid foundation.
Tell you what Instead of listing them all. Why dont you give me your take on John 1:1. Show me why you dont believe it means Jesus is God, one with the Father and the Holy Ghost.
The scriptures speak for them selves. Heres my take, an
earlier post…Jn 1:1
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” The “Word” refers to Jesus (v17), the only begotten of the Father who became flesh and dwelt among us (v14). This affirms that Jesus is a separate individual from the Father (He was with God), and yet He Himself possesses Deity (He was God). Note that the context affirms both Jesus' Deity and His humanity: God became flesh and dwelt among us.
Some argue that the Greek “was God” has no definite article before “God,” whereas there is a definite article in “with God.” Hence, it is claimed that Jesus is god in a lesser sense, different from the Father. Hence, the “New World Translation” says, “the word was a god.” However,
(1) All major standard translations say, “the Word was God None say “a god.” Hence they contradict the NWT. (See NKJV, KJV, ASV, NASB, RSV, NIV, etc.).
(2) If Jesus is “god” in a lesser sense than the Father, then we would have two different true gods! Clearly Jesus is not a false god; hence He is true God. But if He is “god” in a different sense than the Father, that would violate the passages saying there is one true God!
3) Many Scriptures use “God” (Gk. theos) without an article to refer to the true God. See Matthew 5:9; 6:24; Luke 1:35,78; John 1:6,12,13,18; Romans 17:17; and many others.
(4) Many Scriptures use “God” both with and without an article in the same context, yet both uses clearly refer to the true GodSee Matthew 4:3,4; 12:28; Luke 20:37,38; John 3:2; 13:3; Acts 5:29,30; Romans 1:7,8,17-19; 2:16,17; 3:5,22,23; 4:2,3; etc.
(5) The context of John 1:1-3 shows that Jesus is eternal and created all things. (See our later discussion on the character and works of Jesus). To call Him “God” in such a context must surely mean He is God in the same exalted sense as the Father.
If the NWT distinction is valid, then these passages must prove conclusively that Jesus is God in the same sense as the Father.
So John 1:1 refers to both Jesus and the Father as “God” in a context that affirms the eternal existence of Jesus and that He is the Creator of all (v1-3). This would be blasphemy if He does not possess Deity as the Father does.
[Marshall, Vine, Vincent, Lenski, Robertson, and other Greek scholars contend that the article is absent from “was God” in John 1:1, not to imply that Jesus was a “lesser god,” but simply to identify “God” as the predicate nominative despite the fact it precedes the verb for emphasis (Colwell's Rule). If it had the definite article, that would imply that “the Word” and the Father are the same person. In any case, the Scriptures listed above clearly show that the lack of the article does not prove Jesus is God in a lesser sense than the Father.
John 1:1
KJV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.NKJV
IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.NLT
In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God.NIV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.ESV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NASB
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.RSV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.ASV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.YLT
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;Darbys
In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Websters
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.HNV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Of course this is the big one that the Apostle John should have left out, right?
Darn it dosnt fit my Arian view. So I think I will just write another Bible or Just forget it dosnt exist.
II Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?I Cor 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?Acts 3
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:I will ask you also Cubes, who is that thats living in you?
That was not intended to be MY analogy, but rather scripture's. I asked if it could be shown that God has called other beings kings, father, God/god before? And if so, did he intend to equate any of those with himself in identity or glory?
Is he not sovereign above them all?Hello!
I don't dispute that he is the Mighty God who is far greater than lesser beings who have been called Gods (it was he who said this very thing, if he called them Gods to whom the word of the Lord came, why do you accuse me of blasphemy because I SAID “I AM THE SON OF GOD?” Not the exact quote but the exact meaning intended…
Notice that he was careful to repeat that he is the Son of God… not that HE is GOD. The humility, truthfulness and God-fearing Christ. Why do you want to claim he said what he has not said?
In a serious court of law, I imagine you would be asked by a judge, “well, WHAT EXACTLY DID HE SAY?
DID HE SAY HE IS GOD or that HE IS THE SON OF GOD?”
If you are a True witness of him, you would have to quote him verbatim or else as Nick always reminds us, embelish the truth and do what the false witnesses did concerning him.
You have to admit in all truthfulness that this is what the scriptures show him to have said: “I AM THE SON OF GOD.”Now I interpret John 1:1 to mean that:
In the beginning was the word (God said… in the beginning: Gen 1:1-5)And the word was with God (Gen 1:26: God said let US make man in OUR Image and also those scriptures in Isaiah, Job and Ezekiel that speak of the sons of God),
And the word was A God (Hebrews 1:8-9, along with the scriptures that speak about the sons of God).This word is not the same identity as God for if it were, should God not speak about him as he does in Hebrews 1, and indeed in every place where Christ is mentioned as the Son/servant/messiah/lamb etc of God.
Since this word is not The Highest UNSEEN GOD, he being subject to the commands of that God, came and was manifest in the flesh, was crucified, died buried, rose again, ascended into heaven and sits at the righ
t hand of the Father. Some say this is not a literal place… perhaps yes and perhaps no, but we know it is the most exalted position known next to the Father's … who shall ascend to the mountain of God?So here is my understanding of John 1:1 based on scripture, which is confirmable and irrefutable.
BTW, I forgot to respond to the translators which you presented: Those translators have to explain Hebrews 1:8-9 and Ps 110:1…. regardless of their well-intended biases, are there two persons presented in these verses or only one?
Did one God anoint another God?
Did YHWH say to the Lord, “sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool?”One or two?
The answers to these questions are reflected in John 1:1 and Genesis 1:26.
Cubes
Quote DID HE SAY HE IS GOD or that HE IS THE SON OF GOD?” The Son of God is also God.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily
Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus
Phi 2:6 Who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with GodRom 9:5 Whose are the fathers and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came who is over all God blessed for ever Amen
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness God was manifest in the flesh
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding that we may know him that is true and we are in him that is true even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,..Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Mat 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy;(The high priest understood Jesus’ claim to be God and wrongly accused Him of blasphemy.)
Blasphemy can only be committed against God.Mat 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mat 9:3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth. (They knew that only God can forgive sins.)
Mat 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God,…
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God (Jesus).
Rev 22:13 I (Jesus) am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image,
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
Mar 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mar 2:6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
Mar 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Joh 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
Mar 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him:
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
Mat 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him,.Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God (Theos).
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he (Jesus) shall be called, THE LORD (Yhovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the L
ORD thy God:1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Deu 32:3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
Psa 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD (yhovah), I change not;
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: (because Jesus claimed the name of God)Joh 10:9 I am the door:
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd:
Joh 11:25 … I am the resurrection,
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
Joh 15:1 I am the true vine,Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.Acts 7:59, “And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
Hi CB,
When the Son became a son did he do so in the way all of creation does, given his own being and substance and will and heart and mind?
Or is son really just a glorified appellation for an aspect or extension of God Himself?Quote (Cult Buster @ Dec. 25 2006,13:39) Cubes Quote DID HE SAY HE IS GOD or that HE IS THE SON OF GOD?” The Son of God is also God.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily
Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus
Phi 2:6 Who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with GodRom 9:5 Whose are the fathers and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came who is over all God blessed for ever Amen
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness God was manifest in the flesh
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding that we may know him that is true and we are in him that is true even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,..Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Mat 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy;(The high priest understood Jesus’ claim to be God and wrongly accused Him of blasphemy.)
Blasphemy can only be committed against God.Mat 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mat 9:3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth. (They knew that only God can forgive sins.)
Mat 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God,…
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God (Jesus).
Rev 22:13 I (Jesus) am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image,
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
Mar 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mar 2:6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
Mar 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Joh 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
Mar 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him:
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
Mat 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him,.Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God (Theos).
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he (Jesus) shall be called, THE LORD (Yhovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which sea
rcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Deu 32:3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
Psa 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD (yhovah), I change not;
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: (because Jesus claimed the name of God)Joh 10:9 I am the door:
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd:
Joh 11:25 … I am the resurrection,
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
Joh 15:1 I am the true vine,Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.Acts 7:59, “And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
Hi CB,I don't disagree that those scriptures are true of Christ and that he is also A God, but there are scriptures that are equally true which provide a true understanding of who Christ is.
For example, how do you reconcile these scriptures?
Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus
Phi 2:6 Who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with GodWith
Psa 8:6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all [things] under his feet:
1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
Eph 1:22 And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.Hbr 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
What scriptures substantiate your interpretation of Phil 2:6, that, presumably Christ is equal with HIS GOD??
CB, 1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Blessings
Cubes.
Quote I don't disagree that those scriptures are true of Christ and that he is also A God,.. That is what the Watchtower bible (NWT) describes Him as “a god” in John Chapter 1.
No serious Bible scholar uses the Jehovahs Witnesses bible.
The correct translation is:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word (Jesus) was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
There has on this forum been much confusion between Christ’s mission or “office” as Messiah and that of His substance which is The Eternal God.
When Christ was to leave heaven and was to take the form of a man He did not cease to be God. He simply put aside His own divine power and was dependent on God for power. This makes Him our example to follow because we too are to depend totally on God.
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
He had to overcome Satan while living as a man. Christ did not come to earth to show what a God can do, but what man can do when he depends on God for power. He succeeded where Adam failed.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
A human body was fashioned for Christ. A body which had sinful propensities just like ours. A body less than what Adam had, weakened by the curse of sin.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Christ condemned sin in the flesh. He resisted sin. Don’t forget that He laid aside His divine power and did not use it for His own benefit, overcoming temptation relying on God for power. We too can resist temptation if we rely on God for power. Christ was our example.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.Luk 4:2 (Jesus) Being forty days tempted of the devil.
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.Who was being tempted here? Jesus; The Lord thy God.
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
There are many instances in the scripture where Jesus calls the Father..His God and says the Father is greater than I. I always thought this was in reference to Jesus being a Man on earth. But you also have accounts of Jesus calling the Father His God after the resurection. He calls the Father His God when speaking to Mary and again in Revelations. (Rev 3:12) Why is Jesus still calling the Father His God? There is also a passage that says the head of Jesus is God. (1 Cor 11:3)
In many of these instances Jesus was encumbered with humanity or within the context of Him being the Messiah. Don’t forget that Christ is still ministering for us right now as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. So His mission is not yet over.
Even within the Godhead each Divine Person recognise and have reverence for the other as God.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
In John 5:26 Jesus says:
26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,This is also in the context of Christ mission as Messiah. Within the Godhead a plan was made for the salvation of man. It is evident that each divine Person within the Godhead takes on a different office or role. It is a pity that we too cannot learn to work together and to serve each other.
John 6:58 says:
57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.This also is in the context of Christ’s mission as Messiah. I have already covered this.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him (Jesus), My Lord and my God.
Hi CB,
You fill our pages with shouted scriptures that speak of two united as one yet cannot read and understand what you post. You need to be reborn from above to see the kingdom and then you would not have to design your own.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Dec. 24 2006,00:27) Quote (Cubes @ Dec. 22 2006,18:10) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 22 2006,05:31) Quote God spoke things into existence and in due time, he sent his son and the word was made flesh and dwelt among us. All things came into existence by and through the word… but it is God who gave the word and therefore is the possessor of the word. God is in the word and the word is in God, naturally…
God is in his creation (Romans 1) and his creation is sustained in him.
Of course God is above his son and above his creation.
Cubes
By the way give me some scriptures to support your view here!
I know you will.
Thanks
Hi W,My apologies.
Quote God spoke things into existence In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness *was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
Isa 55:11 So shall MY word be that goeth forth out of MY mouth: IT shall not return unto ME void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.
Therefore the word is God's and subject to God.
He would be in his word and his word would be in him but he would be infinitely greater because his word is subject to him, and he honors his own name by having power, authority and a will to fulfill whatsoever he desires out of his word.Quote and in due time, he sent his son and the word was made flesh and dwelt among us. Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Mar 12:6 Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.
Quote All things came into existence by and through the word… but it is God who gave the word and therefore is the possessor of the word. God is in the word and the word is in God, naturally… Building on the foundation of Genesis 1:1f, and corrolating it w/ John 1:3, then corrolating Genesis 1:26 w/ Colossians 1:15f if we all agree that Christ is the WORD and that this is what John meant.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Reconciled in Christ
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
1Cr 11:12 For as the woman [is] of the man, even so [is] the man also by the woman; but all things of God. Just my way of saying that God is sovereign over all appointed leaderships of which he has made Christ Lord…
1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Quote God is in his creation (Romans 1) and his creation is sustained in him. Of course God is above his son and above his creation.
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
1Cr 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
Hi Cubes, do you now believe that Yahshua preexisted His incarnation as a vocalisation of God, His father? Seems to me like you do, but I wanted to confirm.Thanks and regards.
Greetings Is,I overlooked your post somehow. Sorry about that.
As to your question… my reason for believing this is based on John 1:1f as I know of no other reference to the WORD in this way. The apostles were to lay no other foundation than that which was previously laid by God through his holy prophets. They could build on that true foundation even as Jesus. So in looking for a foundation to explain John 1:1f, I think of Genesis 1:1f… the word through which God created all things which in due time became flesh.What's your take on John's foundational scripture? It may take me a while to ge
t back to you.Many blessings to you and yours for the new year!
Jesus is the Creator & God
“You, Lord (Jesus), have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands.”
(Heb 1:10)“All things came into being through Him (Jesus), and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.”
(John 1:3)For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he (Jesus) is before all things, and by him all things consist.
(Col 1:16-17)The above biblical verses about Jesus, taken in the entire context of Holy Scripture, proclaim Him to be the Creator.
Following are some of the verses of the Bible concerning the Creator (Jesus):– – “In the beginning God (Jesus) created the heavens and the earth.”
(Gen 1:1)– – “For in six days Jehovah (Jesus) made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.”
(Exo 20:11)– – “By the Word of Jehovah (Jesus) were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.”
(Psa 33:6)– – “A Prayer of Moses, the man of God. O Jehovah (Jesus), You have been our dwelling-place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You (Jesus) are God. ”
(Psa 90:1-2)
– – “I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days; Your years are through the generation of generations. Of old You (Jesus) have laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of Your hands.”
(Psa 102:24-25)“So says Jehovah God (Jesus), He who created the heavens and stretched them out, spreading out the earth and its offspring; He who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it. ”
(Isa 42:5)– – “So says Jehovah (Jesus), the Holy One of Israel, and the One who formed him, Do you ask Me of things to come? Do you give command to Me about My sons, and about the work of My hands? I (Jesus) have made the earth, and created man on it; I (Jesus) with My hands have stretched out the heavens; and all their host have I (Jesus) commanded. ”
(Isa 45:11-12)– – “Jehovah of Hosts. He (Jesus) has made the earth by His power; He (Jesus) has established the world by His wisdom, and has stretched out the heavens by His understanding.”
(Jer 51:14-15)The first group of verses cited from the Bible, identify Jesus as the Creator; while the second group identifies Jehovah as the Creator. For there not to be a significant contradiction in Holy Scripture, thereby breaking the validity of Scripture. it follows that
Jesus is JehovahJer 23:5-6 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Yhovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.Cult Buster, just a little note on protocol my friend. Bold text is considered the equivalent of shouting in forums, which isn't polite. Plain text is easier to read and not so “in your face” if you know what I mean.
Blessings
Who will join the host of heaven to worship him who sits on the throne and the Lamb?
Rev 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.Do you worship the holy spirit?
Is there any command to do so?
Is there any indication that the Jews worshipped God's spirit?
Is there any incling that the Christians worshipped the holy spirit?
If the holy spirit is part of the trinity, shouldn't it be worshipped?
And if it should, and this would be important, you'd think, why did the early Christian writers not at least hint at it, much less actually tell us to do so? ? ?
Once again the holy spirit is missing from your post above, from the vision above.
W h y ?
A PERSON CAN BE PORTRAYED BY THE IMAGE OF A PERSON–AS JEHOVAH AND JESUS ARE, YET FOR SOME REASON….
For some reason, even though we see visions of God as sitting on a throne and Jesus, such representations of God’s holy spirit are never given AND WHENEVER WE LOOK AT SUCH VISIONS, THE HOLY SPIRIT SEEMS TO BE MISSING…FOR SOME REASON.
Daniel, Stephen and John in visions saw representations of the Father and the Son, but never one of the holy spirit. (Acts 7:55,56)
Acts 7:55, 56 reports that Stephen was given a vision of heaven in which he saw “Jesus standing at God’s right hand.” But he made no mention of seeing the holy spirit.
No holy spirit is mentioned in this vision because it was not any third person of a Trinity.
In Daniel chapter 7 he describes a wonderful vision Jehovah gave to him: “the Ancient of Days” on his heavenly throne, with a multitude of angels ministering to him. Daniel saw also “someone like a son of man [Jesus],” who was given “rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him.” (Daniel 7:9, 10, 13, 14) What, though, about the holy spirit? It is not mentioned as a person in this celestial scene.
The final book of the Bible—Revelation, (which means: “unveiling, uncovering)—describes other remarkable heavenly visions. The Supreme Being, Jehovah, is depicted there on his throne, and the Lamb, Jesus Christ, is with him. But, again, the holy spirit is not mentioned as a distinct person. (Revelation, chapters 4–6)
And again in Revelation chapter 21, we again see the Father and Christ, but holy spirit is once again not seen.
So even the final Bible book does not reveal that there are three persons in one god. Jesus repeatedly mentioned being at his Father’s right hand. No one is mentioned as being at his Father’s left hand. And nowhere are three divine persons pictured together in scripture.
If “the holy spirit” is a “co-eternal” member of a triune Godhead, it is strange indeed that he seems to have no seat of authority on the final throne.
In contrast to God the Father and Jesus Christ, who are consistently compared to human beings in their form and shape, the holy spirit is consistently represented, by various symbols and manifestations, in a completely different manner—such as wind (Acts 2:2), fire (verse 3), water (John 4:14; 7:37-39), oil (Psalm 45:7; compare Acts 10:38; Matthew 25:1-10), a dove (Matthew 3:16) and an “earnest,” or down payment, on everlasting life (2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14, KJV). These depictions are difficult to understand, to say the least, if the holy spirit is a person.
It seems whenever there are visions or images given of the Father and Son, for some reason the holy spirit is not seen or represented and definitely not portrayed as a person. Why is that?NEVER MIND.
DON'T EVEN TRY TO ANSWER. BECAUSE YOU CAN'T. YOU WON'T.
And even this reverse pychology won't work on you, because you really can't answer these questions.
david
JEHOVAH The Holy Spirit
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD(JEHOVAH) I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD (JEHOVAH): for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD (JEHOVAH) : for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.Rev 22:9 worship God.
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