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Hi W,
Well, you quote his enemies
and their views that he was saying he was God, or equal with God
when all he said was that he is the Son of God.I know you do not agree with them
but you should not follow their reasoning either
and simply believe what he said about himself surelyif he is truly your MASTER?
Quote God spoke things into existence and in due time, he sent his son and the word was made flesh and dwelt among us. All things came into existence by and through the word… but it is God who gave the word and therefore is the possessor of the word. God is in the word and the word is in God, naturally…
God is in his creation (Romans 1) and his creation is sustained in him.
Of course God is above his son and above his creation.
Cubes
By the way give me some scriptures to support your view here!
I know you will.
Thanks
Quote The scriptures do say…
I Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.Interesting the word manifest is, phaneroo which means: to make manifest or **visible** or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way.
What is more interesting is that Paul doesn’t use the Title Father [pater] when he so often does in showing the distinction between the Father and the Son, but he uses “Theos”.
David why do you turn from what is written.
Take out the KJ versions and very very few Bibles have “God” (theos) here but use other, perhaps more prominent or better manuscripts. Even the New King James feels obliged to point out that the NU Text doesn't have “God” there.
I don't turn from what is written. You choose to pick one of the very few Bibles that translates that scripture that way. If I did that with a certain Bible for let's say John 1:1, you would be all over me and scream: “That's the only Bible that translates it that way.” (Which is false by the way.) But my point is: Most Bible's don't translate it that way.
Question: Do you consider the KJ to be the infallible word of God? Is that the perfect translation, or the best, in your opinion? What are your thoughts on Bible translations, the KJ in particular?
Logic suggests that someone cannot be their own Father.
*****
LUKE 1:32
“This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High.” (How did the angel announcing his birth refer to him? Compare Ps 83:18, where it says that Jehovah alone is the Most High.)
LUKE 1:34
“For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God’s Son.”MATTHEW 3:17
“Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”” (Who does Jehovah God’s testimony tell us Jesus is?)JOHN 1:34
“And I have seen [it], and I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.””
(What did John the Baptist bear witness to regarding Jesus?)JOHN 1:49
“Nathańael answered him: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.”” (How did Nathanael identify Jesus?)MATTHEW 16:16
“In answer Simon Peter said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.””
(Jesus himself asked who they thought he was. With this response of Peter, Jesus pronounced him happy, because his Father had revealed this to him.)JOHN 11:27
“She [Martha] said to him: “Yes, Lord; I have believed that you are the Christ the Son of God.”” (What did Martha believe about Jesus?)JOHN 20:31
“But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God.” (Why did John write what he did? What did he want us to believe?)JOHN 1:34
“I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.” (Did John bear witness that Jesus was God Almighty, or God’s Son?)1 JOHN 4:15
“Whoever makes the confession that Jesus Christ is the Son of God . . .” (According to John, if we are to remain in union with God, what must confess?)1 JOHN 5:5
“Who is the one that conquers the world but he who has faith that Jesus is the Son of God?” (According to John, what must we have faith in–that Jesus is God, or the “Son of” God?)
(It seems that John bore witness that Jesus was the “Son of” God, that he wrote what he did so that we would believe that Jesus was the “Son of” God, telling us to have faith that Jesus is the “Son of” God, and to confess that Jesus is the “Son of” God.)ACTS 9:20
“he [Peter] began to preach Jesus, that this One is the Son of God.” (What did the apostle Peter preach about Jesus?)MARK 1:24
“What have we to do with you, Jesus you Nazarené? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God.” (The demons certainly knew “exactly” who Jesus was: the Holy One “of” God, and hence, not God Almighty himself.)
MATTHEW 8:29
“What have we to do with you, Son of God?”
MARK 3:11
“Even the unclean spirits, whenever they would behold him, would prostrate themselves before him and cry out, saying: “You are the Son of God.”“
LUKE 4:41
“Demons also would come out of many, crying out and saying: “You are the Son of God.”JOHN 5:18
“On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also CALLING GOD HIS OWN FATHER, making himself equal to God.” (He was not saying that he was equal to God, but rather “he was also calling God his own Father,” and in the minds of the Jews, this was tantamount to making himself equal with God.)
MATTHEW 26:63
“So the high priest said to him: “By the living God I put you under oath to tell us whether you are the Christ the Son of God!”“ (What did the chief priest charge Jesus as saying he was? Surely if there was indication that he was claiming to be God or those around him believed this, then that accusation would have been made. These were the ones who were accusing them of anything they could, making stuff up. Surely if he was claiming to be God himself, they would have capitalized on this.)
LUKE 22:70
“Are you, therefore, the Son of God?”
MATTHEW 27:43
“let Him [God] now rescue him if He wants him, for he said, ‘I am God’s Son.’”
JOHN 19:7
“The Jews answered him: “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself God’s son.”” (What did the Jews tell Pilate Jesus had made himself? If Jesus was claiming to be God, surely they who wanted him done away with would have charged him with this.)
MARK 14:61,62
“Again the high priest began to question him and said to him: “Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?” Then Jesus said: “I am.” (So they were charging him with saying he was the “Son of” the God, and Jesus himself said: “I am.”)JOHN 10:36
“do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?” (Who did Jesus himself say he was?)MATTHEW 14:33
“Then those in the boat did obeisance to him, saying: “You are really God’s Son.””
(Miraculously walking on water and calming the winds moved his disciples to what conclusion?)MATTHEW 27:40
“If you are a son of God, come down off the torture stake!” (How did those mocking him while he was dying refer to him?)MATTHEW 27:54
“when they saw the earthquake and the things happening, grew very much afraid, saying: “Certainly this was God’s Son.”“ (What conclusion did the army officer there at Jesus death reach?)
MARK 15:39
“Now, when the army officer that was standing by with him in view saw he had expired under these circumstances, he said: “Certainly this man was God’s Son.””ROMANS 1:4
“but who with power was declared God’s Son.” (What was Jesus declared to be?)So we have an angel, demons, Jehovah, Jesus, John the Baptist, Nathanael, Peter, Martha, John, Paul, mockers of Jesus, an army officer who saw Jesus die, the Jews, all making very plain what they believed Jesus to be, the “Son of” God, or “God’s Son,” and hence, not God, but someone related to God, the “Son of” God.
It seems almost deceptive for Jesus to over and over again be called someone that is related to God, the “son of” God and not God himself, if that were the case.
Why does the God's inspired word go through all this trouble to confuse us? It doesn't. It means what it says. Those that knew Jesus, who lived with him, who saw him, knew who he was. There testamony is beyond clear. Jesus is the Son of God.
When it comes to his identity, or the question of his identy, who he was, it's interesting that everyone says he's the “son of” God and not God Almighty himself.david
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 21 2006,19:28) I Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.Interesting the word manifest is, phaneroo which means: to make manifest or **visible** or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way.
To WorshippingJesus.Another interesting fact is that your interpretation of I Tim 3:16 completely goes against scripture and we know that there are no conflicts in truth and scripture. So you need to reevaluate your interpretation and understanding of those scriptures.
1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; ….1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
Amen.1 Timothy 6:15-16
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.
You have never heard his voice nor seen his form.So it is obvious that no one can see God, but only his son can reveal him to us. This truth completely contradicts your statement and understanding quoted above.
So should we change scripture to conform with our understanding, or should we let scripture and truth change us.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 22 2006,05:31) Quote God spoke things into existence and in due time, he sent his son and the word was made flesh and dwelt among us. All things came into existence by and through the word… but it is God who gave the word and therefore is the possessor of the word. God is in the word and the word is in God, naturally…
God is in his creation (Romans 1) and his creation is sustained in him.
Of course God is above his son and above his creation.
Cubes
By the way give me some scriptures to support your view here!
I know you will.
Thanks
Hi W,My apologies.
Quote God spoke things into existence In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness *was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
Isa 55:11 So shall MY word be that goeth forth out of MY mouth: IT shall not return unto ME void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.
Therefore the word is God's and subject to God.
He would be in his word and his word would be in him but he would be infinitely greater because his word is subject to him, and he honors his own name by having power, authority and a will to fulfill whatsoever he desires out of his word.Quote and in due time, he sent his son and the word was made flesh and dwelt among us. Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Mar 12:6 Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.
Quote All things came into existence by and through the word… but it is God who gave the word and therefore is the possessor of the word. God is in the word and the word is in God, naturally… Building on the foundation of Genesis 1:1f, and corrolating it w/ John 1:3, then corrolating Genesis 1:26 w/ Colossians 1:15f if we all agree that Christ is the WORD and that this is what John meant.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Reconciled in Christ
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
1Cr 11:12 For as the woman [is] of the man, even so [is] the man also by the woman; but all things of God. Just my way of saying that God is sovereign over all appointed leaderships of which he has made Christ Lord…
1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Quote God is in his creation (Romans 1) and his creation is sustained in him. Of course God is above his son and above his creation.
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
1Cr 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
Quote To WorshippingJesus. Another interesting fact is that your interpretation of I Tim 3:16 completely goes against scripture and we know that there are no conflicts in truth and scripture. So you need to reevaluate your interpretation and understanding of those scriptures.
1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; ….1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
Amen.1 Timothy 6:15-16
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.
You have never heard his voice nor seen his form.So it is obvious that no one can see God, but only his son can reveal him to us. This truth completely contradicts your statement and understanding quoted above.
So should we change scripture to conform with our understanding, or should we let scripture and truth change us.
t8You just said it. No one has ever seen God.
But Jesus has, so he is not just no one. Only God could see God.
But Jesus came to reveal him.
Jesus has decalred him. He was/is the Word/God that was manifest in the flesh.
Jn 1:18
KJV
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.NLT
No one has ever seen God. But his only Son, who is himself God,* is near to the Father's heart; he has told us about him.NIV
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,*,*who is at the Father's side, has made him known.ESV
No one has ever seen God; the only God,* who is at the Father's side,* he has made him known.NASB
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained {Him.}Why is this so hard to accept? Why do you not give the Son the honor thats due him as the Word/God?
I Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.The word for “Manifest” is phaneroo, which means:
1) to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way
a) make actual and visible, realised
b) to make known by teaching
c) to become manifest, be made known
d) of a person
1) expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear
e) to become known, to be plainly recognised, thoroughly understood
1) who and what one is
Jesus is….
Heb 1:
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Jesus was “the express image of His [the Father's] person” (NKJV, KJV) or “the very image of his substance” (ASV), “the exact representation of His nature” (NASB), “the exact representation of his being” (NIV). The context describes Jesus as the Creator, far above the angels so that He deserves to be worshipped,
“Express image” (charachter) means “the exact expression … of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect (cf. facsimile) …” – Grimm-Wilke-Thayer (cf. Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich).“Person” (hupostasis) mean “the substantial quality, nature, of any person or thing …” – Grimm-Wilke-Thayer. Or “…substantial nature, essence, actual being, reality … a(n exact) representation of his (= God's) real being Hebrews 1:3…” – Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich.
Hence, Jesus is “the precise duplicate in every respect” of the “essence, actual being, reality” of God. How can Jesus be an exact expression of the real being of the Father without Himself possessing true Deity?
So again…
Theos, , was manifest in the flesh
Theos, was justified in the Spirit
Theos, was seen of Angels
Theos, preached unto the Gentiles
Theos, was believed on in the world
Theos, received up into glory.
Paul in contest says…
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
The word “Mystery” is musterion, which means:1) hidden thing, secret, mystery
a) generally mysteries, religious secrets, confided only to the initiated and not to ordinary mortals
b) a hidden or secret things, not obvious to the understanding
This Hidden and secret thing can only be seen by the Spirit of God taking the cover off of the eyes, the spritual mind.
JN 14
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?Jn 10:30
I and my Father are one.
Hi W,
You say
“Only God could see God.”
Pardon?
Where did you derive this assumption from?
You seem to take every possible opportunity to try and justify a false doctrine.
Scripture says no MAN or no one has seen God but surely angels see the God they worship?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 23 2006,14:01) You just said it. No one has ever seen God. But Jesus has, so he is not just no one. Only God could see God.
But Jesus came to reveal him.
Jesus has decalred him. He was/is the Word/God that was manifest in the flesh.
To WorshippingJesus..I will make this easy for you.
If Jesus were God, then no one would have seen him.
But he is actually visible and many have seen him.He is in truth, “the IMAGE of the invisible God”.
That is what you have failed to grasp. He is the IMAGE and he is visible. He is not the source (God) and he is not invisible (God).
There is no contradiction in scripture. If an interpretation only works with some scriptures, then it has to be wrong, otherwise scripture is wrong.
Quote To WorshippingJesus.. I will make this easy for you.
If Jesus were God, then no one would have seen him.
But he is actually visible and many have seen him.He is in truth, “the IMAGE of the invisible God”.
That is what you have failed to grasp. He is the IMAGE and he is visible. He is not the source (God) and he is not invisible (God).
There is no contradiction in scripture. If an interpretation only works with some scriptures, then it has to be wrong, otherwise scripture is wrong.
t8
So you deny the scriptures that say he is God, and even deny the Father calling him God?
Why would the Father be pleased with men giving less honor to the Son than he does?
Quote All things came into existence by and through the word… but it is God who gave the word and therefore is the possessor of the word. God is in the word and the word is in God, naturally… Cubes
Sorry. In all the scripture you show I see no evidence that Jesus is the “Spoken Word” of the Father.
Jesus was with God and was God. So then by your definition, the Spoken Word of God was God.
WJ
Quote t8 So you deny the scriptures that say he is God, and even deny the Father calling him God?
WJ. You won't convince this lot because they are brainwashed by their Arian cult. They are resistant to truth because they have lost the love of it. They are Wilfully blind. It is a form of dishonesty.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either cease to be mistaken, or cease to be honest.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 23 2006,12:30) Quote All things came into existence by and through the word… but it is God who gave the word and therefore is the possessor of the word. God is in the word and the word is in God, naturally… Cubes
Sorry. In all the scripture you show I see no evidence that Jesus is the “Spoken Word” of the Father.
Jesus was with God and was God. So then by your definition, the Spoken Word of God was God.
WJ,If that is the case, then we have a problem because we need to be able to determine where John got his view point from. Do you see what I mean? Perhaps there are other scriptures from the first covenant which explain it better which I encourage others to share with us.
Genesis 1:1f was what I could think of and have understood John 1:1f to reveal.
Blessings.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 23 2006,12:18) Quote To WorshippingJesus.. I will make this easy for you.
If Jesus were God, then no one would have seen him.
But he is actually visible and many have seen him.He is in truth, “the IMAGE of the invisible God”.
That is what you have failed to grasp. He is the IMAGE and he is visible. He is not the source (God) and he is not invisible (God).
There is no contradiction in scripture. If an interpretation only works with some scriptures, then it has to be wrong, otherwise scripture is wrong.
t8
So you deny the scriptures that say he is God, and even deny the Father calling him God?
Why would the Father be pleased with men giving less honor to the Son than he does?
WJ,Reading your response in answer to t8, it just came to my mind to ask you if by chance God, whom we understand to be the highest and sovereign king of all, has at any time referred to someone besides Jesus as “king” for instance. I can't be sure but I think he has, e.g. Pharoah, king of Egypt, king of persia, etc.
If so, do you think by him calling someone else “king” he intended for such a king to be regarded as his equal or the same being as he, etc. No.
Similarly, to call his son God is to acknowledge and lift him up in a glorious way but it is not to mean he was speaking of himself or recognizing his son as his equal.
If you can be objective about God calling others “king,” when he is clearly THE KING of all, why do you find it difficult do be unbiased about his calling Jesus “God?”
Honest question.
Quote (Cult Buster @ Dec. 23 2006,10:11) WJ Quote t8 So you deny the scriptures that say he is God, and even deny the Father calling him God?
WJ. You won't convince this lot because they are brainwashed by their Arian cult. They are resistant to truth because they have lost the love of it. They are Wilfully blind. It is a form of dishonesty.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either cease to be mistaken, or cease to be honest.
Hi CB,
Cults follow leaders.
We follow Christ, not each other.
Why follow Constantine and his popes?Read the bible for yourself.
The truth will set you free.
Be free indeed!Quote (Cubes @ Dec. 22 2006,18:10) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 22 2006,05:31) Quote God spoke things into existence and in due time, he sent his son and the word was made flesh and dwelt among us. All things came into existence by and through the word… but it is God who gave the word and therefore is the possessor of the word. God is in the word and the word is in God, naturally…
God is in his creation (Romans 1) and his creation is sustained in him.
Of course God is above his son and above his creation.
Cubes
By the way give me some scriptures to support your view here!
I know you will.
Thanks
Hi W,My apologies.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness *was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.Quote God spoke things into existence
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
Isa 55:11 So shall MY word be that goeth forth out of MY mouth: IT shall not return unto ME void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.
Therefore the word is God's and subject to God.
He would be in his word and his word would be in him but he would be infinitely greater because his word is subject to him, and he honors his own name by having power, authority and a will to fulfill whatsoever he desires out of his word.
Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;Quote and in due time, he sent his son and the word was made flesh and dwelt among us. Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Mar 12:6 Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.
Quote All things came into existence by and through the word… but it is God who gave the word and therefore is the possessor of the word. God is in the word and the word is in God, naturally… Building on the foundation of Genesis 1:1f, and corrolating it w/ John 1:3, then corrolating Genesis 1:26 w/ Colossians 1:15f if we all agree that Christ is the WORD and that this is what John meant.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Reconciled in Christ
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
1Cr 11:12 For as the woman [is] of the man, even so [is] the man also by the woman; but all things of God. Just my way of saying that God is sovereign over all appointed leaderships of which he has made Christ Lord…
1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.Quote God is in his creation (Romans 1) and his creation is sustained in him. Of course God is above his son and above his creation.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
1Cr 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
Hi Cubes, do you now believe that Yahshua preexisted His incarnation as a vocalisation of God, His father? Seems to me like you do, but I wanted to confirm.Thanks and regards.
Hi Is 1.18,
All of creation came through this expressed divine “vocalisation” of God, who was with God in the beginning.
All the other sons of God who were joyful when the world was being created were created through the firstborn Son.
He, the monogenes firstborn son, the firstborn of creation, has the preeminence in all thingsQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 15 2006,07:01) Quote Finally, from Genesis… certainly Deuteronomy, I was told to expect a messiah (prophet, servant) of God. Not God himself in the form of a man. Cubes
Isnt that what the Saducees and Pharisees looked for, and did they not miss the Messiah?
Tell me does Genesis and Deutoronomy show that the Messiah would die and rise from the dead and be exalted above the heavens all power given to him in heaven and earth?
Hi W,I believe these verses lay a foundation for the crucified and risen Lamb of God:
- Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Hbr 9:23 ¶ [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.- Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
- Genesis 15:8 And he said, “Lord God, how shall I know that I will inherit it?”
9 So He said to him, “Bring Me a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old female goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.” 10 Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, down the middle, and placed each piece opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds in two. 11 And when the vultures came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.
12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates– 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”- Genesis 22:1 Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
2 Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”
3 So Abraham rose early in the morning and saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son; and he split the wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him. 4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted his eyes and saw the place afar off. 5 And Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; the *lad and I will go yonder and worship, and we will come back to you.”
6 So Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife, and the two of them went together. 7 But Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, “My father!”
And he said, “Here I am, my son.”
Then he said, “Look, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?”
8 And Abraham said, “My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering.” So the two of them went together.
9 Then they came to the place of which God had told him. And Abraham built an altar there and placed the wood in order; and he bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, upon the wood. 10 And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.
11 But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!”
So he said, “Here I am.”
12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
13 Then Abraham lifted his eyes and looked, and there behind him was a ram caught in a thicket by its horns. So Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up for a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of the place, *The-Lord-Will-Provide; as it is said to this day, “In the Mount of the Lord it shall be provided.”
15 Then the Angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, 16 and said: “By Myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son– 17 blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” 19 So Abraham returned to his young men, and they rose and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba.
INTERESTINGLY, Genesis 15 is also where Abram has a conversation with YHWH about not having his OWN son to inherit him, and the Lord GOD promised him his OWN son/seed!Israel is symbolic of Christ to the nations as Salvation is of the Jews.
Worship Jesus
Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Joh 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him (Jesus).
Mar 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him (Jesus), they worshipped him:
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him (Jesus), saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him(Jesus) , saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
Mat 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him (Jesus),.
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him (Jesus).Joh 1:3 All things were made by him (Jesus the Word); and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Worship Jesus- Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
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