Worship God the Father only?

[Cubes]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 11 2006,20:14)

Quote Nah, W.  Because the Father sent him. Deut 18:15f and John 3:15f Deu 18:18  I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. Deu 18:19  And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I WILL REQUIRE [it] OF HIM. Deu 18:20  But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. Jhn 3:14  And as MOSES LIFTED UP THE SERPENT in the wilderness, even so must THE SON OF MAN be lifted up: Jhn 3:15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. Jhn 3:16  For GOD so loved the world, that HE gave HIS only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jhn 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Jhn 3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son OF GOD. Hi Cubes Every Son of God has been sent by God, but none can recieve thier sprit when they die. Especially being that many on this forum believe that when you die your spirit goes back to God.

Quote

Every Son of God has been sent by God, but none can recieve thier sprit when they die…

Hi W,

You lost me with the bolded part. Could you please clarify or elaborate?

Thanks

[Cubes]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Dec. 10 2006,02:59)

Quote (Cubes @ Dec. 03 2006,16:36) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Dec. 02 2006,14:03) Hi Cubes and David, Cornelius fell down to worship (proskuneō) Peter in Acts 10:25, but Peter made it clear that it was inappropriate to proskuneō him as he was just a man. Acts 10:25-26 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped (Gr. proskuneō) him. 26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also, am a man. Likewise, John sought to worship an angel twice in Revelation(19:10; 22:8,9), but the angel also forbade it because he was a “fellow servant” and commanded him to “proskuneō theos.” Revelation 19:10   And I fell at his feet to worship (Gr. proskuneō) him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship (Gr. proskuneō) God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Revelation 22:8-9   And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship (Gr. proskuneō) before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship (Gr. proskuneō) God. Considering the data in these passages would you agree that there appears to be a type of proskuneō that cannot rightly be offered to anyone other than God, proskuneō that, if given to the wrong subject, constitutes idolatry? Could I please have a 'yes' or 'no' answer….and yes, I will have some follow up questions (you knew I would!!)… Many blessings Hi Is, Considering the data in ALL of scripture, YES. Quote (Is 1:18 @ Dec. 05 2006,23:57) Quote (Cubes @ Dec. 03 2006,16:36) Hi again Cubes, Sorry it's taking me a while to respond to posts these days (busy times)… I guess the only real way to determine whether “proskuneō” is used to denote worship appropriate for the One true God is the context in which the word is placed into, right? Would you agree that this passage is describing the kind of worship that is appropriate only for YHWH? Revelation 4:10-11 10the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11″Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.” Again, it's another 'yes' or 'no' question. Blessings Hello Is, Not so fast, buddy!     Not sure I understand what you mean by “context” entirely. But I would say that it is important to know WHO is proskuneo'd and WHY.  Whether or not such a person IS the Most High God or UNDER God.  It determines the degree and spirit in which they are proskuneo'd. Done the wrong way, God is offended, the right way, he is glorified. If this is what you mean by context, then Yes, I agree. Quote (Is 1:18 @ Dec. 06 2006,12:20) Quote (Cubes @ Dec. 05 2006,22:10) Okay thanks – i'll take that as a yes. And by “context” I specifically mean the set of circumstances or facts that surround a particular event, situation, etc. Bear with me Cubes, one more two-part question and then I'll give you my thoughts. Revelation 5:11-14 11Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” 14And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen ” And the elders fell down and worshiped. Is this the 'reserved only for God' kind of worship? and if not, why not? PS; all my best to your husband, nice guy! Hi Is, Until you can separate the body from the head, or the living stones from the chief corner stone, or Jesus sitting on his throne from those whom the Father has given him and chosen to sit at Jesus' right hand… those who would sit w/ Jesus on his throne as he promised… until you can separate the bride from her groom… flesh, bones, joints, sinews from itself… Here are the options:   1)  Either the body of Christ would be proskuneo'd in like manner, indiscriminately and without prejudice, as indicated in Rev 5:11-14, (since after all, we are one with Christ etc) OR   2)  We can recognize the preeminence of Christ and acknowledge that although we are his body, in him, and in his vicinity, for various reasons and his specific experiences, he is our Lord and is the Lamb of God UNIQUELY and SPECIFICALLY referred to in 5:11f.   3) Now if one subscribes to option 2, then the Father must by necessity be recognized with even greater sovereignty and preeminence in all things.  I subscribe to option 2 and subsequently, by joyous default, to option 3! These are the only options.   The Trinity option does not fit this model.  Besides, the Holy Spirit is presumably missing as per the Trinity model. Mat 6:10  Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven. Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. The content (what is being said to whom) and context ack nowledges that God Almighty is the HIGHEST sovereign known anywhere. Hi Cubes, I got a 'yes' or 'no' answer for the first two questions I asked, but not the third one….I have some thoughts, but I require you to give me a direct answer to Q #3 first. Blessings

Hi Is,

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you.  

To the extent that God the Father is the one ultimately noted as SITTING ON THE THRONE, YES.

Matt 22:15 Then the Pharisees went and plotted how they might entangle Him in His talk. 16 And they sent to Him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that You are true, and teach the way of God in truth; nor do You care about anyone, for You do not regard the person of men. 17 Tell us, therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?”
….

20 And He said to them, “Whose image and inscription is this?”
21 They said to Him, “Caesar's.”
And He said to them, “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.” 22 When they had heard these words, they marveled, and left Him and went their way.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Is falling to the ground the sort of worship God wants or is it in Spirit and truth?
Is that not the sort of religious ritual many falsely believe is worship in a building once a week?

Is not love a lot more important and the daily, and moment by moment loving communion with our Father God in our own temples?

Luke 10:27
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 22:37
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mark 12:30
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi W, All men are sons of God through Adam. They are not sent.

NH

Jn 8:44
Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

NH
Read your bible not all men are born again Sons of God. All born sons of God are sent.

II Cor 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi W, You lost me with the bolded part.  Could you please clarify or elaborate? Thanks

The topic was about…

I said…
“How could anyone but God answer Stephens prayer “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit”?”

The response was…

Quote

Nah, W.  Because the Father sent him. Deut 18:15f and John 3:15f Deu 18:18  I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. Deu 18:19  And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I WILL REQUIRE [it] OF HIM. Deu 18:20  But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. Jhn 3:14  And as MOSES LIFTED UP THE SERPENT in the wilderness, even so must THE SON OF MAN be lifted up: Jhn 3:15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. Jhn 3:16  For GOD so loved the world, that HE gave HIS only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jhn 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Jhn 3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son OF GOD.

My response is Every Son of God is sent like Jesus. But when they get to heaven they will not be answering Gods saints prayers and recieving there spirits to themselves.

Only God can do that.

And so we have Jesus.

Hope that clarifys it.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi, Is falling to the ground the sort of worship God wants or is it in Spirit and truth? Is that not the sort of religious ritual many falsely believe is worship in a building once a week? Is not love a lot more important and the daily, and moment by moment loving communion with our Father God in our own temples? Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment

NH

Rev 5:
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

I think that would be an appropriate reaction for the body in the presence of The Father and the Lamb.

[Cubes]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 12 2006,20:49)

Quote Hi W, You lost me with the bolded part.  Could you please clarify or elaborate? Thanks The topic was about… I said… “How could anyone but God answer Stephens prayer “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit”?” The response was… Quote Nah, W.  Because the Father sent him. Deut 18:15f and John 3:15f Deu 18:18  I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. Deu 18:19  And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I WILL REQUIRE [it] OF HIM. Deu 18:20  But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. Jhn 3:14  And as MOSES LIFTED UP THE SERPENT in the wilderness, even so must THE SON OF MAN be lifted up: Jhn 3:15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. Jhn 3:16  For GOD so loved the world, that HE gave HIS only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jhn 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Jhn 3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son OF GOD. My response is Every Son of God is sent like Jesus. But when they get to heaven they will not be answering Gods saints prayers and recieving there spirits to themselves. Only God can do that. And so we have Jesus. Hope that clarifys it.

Thanks for the clarification, W.

I agree with you on your first count, however, not on the second.

Why?  Because Jesus' own spirit was received by his God.  1 Tim 3:16.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Act 1:9 ¶ And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

So again, degrees of glory and authority and I find that Jesus is Lord having all things put under his feet, nonetheless he himself is subject to the Living God.

He whose spirit need not be received by anyone, he is God.

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 12 2006,15:42)

Quote Hi W, All men are sons of God through Adam. They are not sent. NH Jn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. NH Read your bible not all men are born again Sons of God. All born sons of God are sent. II Cor 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Hi W,

Are all men born?
Lk 3
” 38the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. “

Deut 14
” 1″You are the sons of the LORD your God; you shall not cut yourselves nor shave your forehead for the sake of the dead.”

Ps 82
6I I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High”

But our father is Him or him whom we follow as Jesus showed the Jews. That is why we must be reborn.

True worship is more than just falling down.
True worship is in spirit and truth.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Thanks for the clarification, W. I agree with you on your first count, however, not on the second. Why?  Because Jesus' own spirit was received by his God.  1 Tim 3:16. Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Act 1:9 ¶ And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. So again, degrees of glory and authority and I find that Jesus is Lord having all things put under his feet, nonetheless he himself is subject to the Living God. He whose spirit need not be received by anyone, he is God.

Cubes

So In light of what you are saying please clarify the following scriptures…

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Lk 23
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Matt 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Eph 4:
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things…

BTW The word for commend in luke 23:46 is translated 9 times out of 19 “to set before”. Having said this he “breathed his last breath”.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi W, Are all men born? Lk 3 ” 38the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. “ Deut 14 ” 1″You are the sons of the LORD your God; you shall not cut yourselves nor shave your forehead for the sake of the dead.” Ps 82   6I I said, “You are gods,        And all of you are sons of the Most High” But our father is Him or him whom we follow as Jesus showed the Jews. That is why we must be reborn. True worship is more than just falling down. True worship is in spirit and truth.

NH

Sorry my friend. Jesus has come to make a distinction between the Sons of God and the Sons of men.

Is Gods sons children of wrath?

Eph 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

I Jn 3
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Absolutely.
The sons of Adam became sons of disobedience and sons of wrath.
All must be reborn into the SON OF GOD in whom is life eternal.
God sent him.
There is salvation in no other name under heaven.

[NickHassan]

Hi w,
Surely worship is based on love?

Luke 10:27
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 22:37
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mark 12:30
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

What room is there for the loving worship of more than ONE GOD?

We preach ONE GOD, the Father, but others offer us different deities.

Why is this?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi w, Surely worship is based on love? Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. What room is there for the loving worship of more than ONE GOD? We preach ONE GOD, the Father, but others offer us different deities. Why is this?

NH

If worship is based on Love and you love the Lord Jesus with all your heart and soul and mind and strenth than why wouldnt you be worshipping him?

Or are you serving another besides Jesus?

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
I love my wife and my children and my grandchildren and my dog and my work amd my home but I do not worship them.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi W, I love my wife and my children and my grandchildren and my dog and my work amd my home but I do not worship them.

Did they die for your sins? Do you pray to them? Do you call them Lord and Master? Do you ask them for strength daily? Do you ask them for guidance and wisdom through you daily walk with them. Do they go everywhere with you. Are they your buckler and your shield and your helper against the attacks of Satan in your life.

I could go on. But you know NH , a deep relationship with Jesus which we all should have comes through walking moment by moment with him through life and looking to him as our Great Shephard.

The Apostle Paul's goal in his life was summed up in a few words.

Namely this…Phil 3
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Not that we should not love the father, but its interesting that Paul hardly mentions the Father here.

I believe that those who put thier emphasis on making Jesus less than who is and placing the Father over him rather than placing the Son next to the Father, is displeasing to the Father when he has given us commandment to honor the Son as the Father.

Jesus says it like this….

Matt 10:37
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Notice he dosnt say hes not worthy of the Father. This commandment Jesus has recieved from the Father.

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 13 2006,00:18)

Quote Hi W, I love my wife and my children and my grandchildren and my dog and my work amd my home but I do not worship them. Did they die for your sins? Do you pray to them? Do you call them Lord and Master? Do you ask them for strength daily? Do you ask them for guidance and wisdom through you daily walk with them. Do they go everywhere with you. Are they your buckler and your shield and your helper against the attacks of Satan in your life. I could go on. But you know NH , a deep relationship with Jesus which we all should have comes through walking moment by moment with him through life and looking to him as our Great Shephard. The Apostle Paul's goal in his life was summed up in a few words. Namely this…Phil 3 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Not that we should not love the father, but its interesting that Paul hardly mentions the Father here. I believe that those who put thier emphasis on making Jesus less than who is and placing the Father over him rather than placing the Son next to the Father, is displeasing to the Father when he has given us commandment to honor the Son as the Father. Jesus says it like this…. Matt 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Notice he dosnt say hes not worthy of the Father. This commandment Jesus has recieved from the Father.

Hi W,
Jesus leads us into a deep relationship with His Father who is God. Worshiping Jesus was not the aim that God had in mind when He sent His Son but you seem to have got caught up in a side alley of His plan.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi W, Jesus leads us into a deep relationship with His Father who is God. Worshiping Jesus was not the aim that God had in mind when He sent His Son but you seem to have got caught up in a side alley of His plan.

NH did you even read my post?

Did you read what the Apostle Paul wrote about knowing Jesus?

This is exactly what I am talking about. Jesus gets swept under the rug so to speak as you make him a puppet of the Father.

Jn 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might **KNOW** thee the only true God, **AND** Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 11 2006,14:21)

T8 Nice to talk to you again. You say… Quote We will also be like Christ and Christ is like God. In fact Jesus is the image of the invisible God. He is the image. He is not the God that he is reflecting and declaring. HE IS THE IMAGE OF GOD. We are MADE in the image of God. So you really believe there is no difference in the Only Begotten Son and the Sons of God? Jesus is the express image, the exact copy of God. Do you know any sons of God that can say “If you have seen me then you have seen the Father?

To WorshippingJesus.

Your conclusion about my writing is incorrect.

I said that Jesus is the image of God.
And we are MADE in the image of God.

One difference is that Jesus wasn't made.

So I never said that there was no difference, I outlined the difference, but you came to the wrong conclusion. The correct conclusion of what I wrote is that we were made and we will be like Christ. I will go further and say that Jesus Christ is the prototype and we are the copies.

1 John 3:2-3
2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears,we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
3 Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

To WorshippingJesus. Your conclusion about my writing is incorrect. I said that Jesus is the image of God. And we are MADE in the image of God. One difference is that Jesus wasn't made. So I never said that there was no difference, I outlined the difference, but you came to the wrong conclusion. The correct conclusion of what I wrote is that we were made and we will be like Christ. I will go further and say that Jesus Christ is the prototype and we are the copies. 1 John 3:2-3 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears,we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.

t8

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Thanks for clearing that up. MY bad, as they say here in the states.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Cubes @ Dec. 12 2006,02:08)

Hi Is, Sorry about the delay in getting back to you.

Hi Cubes,
No problem, I have been hopeless at posting replies to posts others have written to me lately, so I couldn't rightly resent a short wait for a reply….

Quote

To the extent that God the Father is the one ultimately noted as SITTING ON THE THRONE, YES.

Interesting….thanks for the answer, albeit a qualified one (I knew you would). Okay Cubes “Let us us reason together” on this one.

First let me address the issue of  the 'recipients' of the worship. Revelation 5:6 reveals that the Lamb is in “the midst” (Gr. Mesos =  middle, centre) of the throne:

G3319
mesos
From G3326; middle (as adjective or [neuter] noun): – among, X before them, between, + forth, mid [-day, -night], midst, way.

Revelation 5.6 (Greek transliteration)
KAI EIDON EN MESWi TOU QRONOU KAI TWN TESSARWN ZWiWN KAI EN MESWi TWN PRESBUTERWN ARNION hESTHKOS hWS ESFAGMENON EXWN KERATAT hEPTA KAI OFQALMOUS hEPTA hOI EISIN TA [hEPTA] PNEUMATA TOU QEOU APESTALMENOI EIS PASAN THN GHN.

Translated thusly in the KJV, NKJV, ESV, YLT, CEV, ASV and Darby English versions:

Revelation 5:6 (KJV)
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Revelation 5:6 (NKJV)
6 And I looked, and behold,[a] in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Revelation 5:6 (ESV)
6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth.

Revelation 5:6 (YLT)
6and I saw, and lo, in the midst of the throne, and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb hath stood as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the Seven Spirits of God, which are sent to all the earth,

Revelation 5:6 (CEV)
6Then I looked and saw a Lamb standing in the center of the throne that was surrounded by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb looked as if it had once been killed. It had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits [a] of God, sent out to all the earth.

Revelation 5:6 (ASV)
6 And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, having seven horns, and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth.

Revelation 5:6 (DARBY)
6And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing, as slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God [which are] sent into all the earth.

The NASB renders it this way:

Revelation 5:6 (NASB)
6And I saw [a]between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.

But has this foot note:

Footnotes:
Revelation 5:6 Lit in the middle of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the middle of the elders.

So the Lamb is in the middle of the:
1) The throne
2) The four living creatures
3)The elders

Here is the configuration that John described:
Revelation 5:11
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,

Around:
G2943
κυκλόθεν
kuklothen
koo-kloth'-en
Adverb from the same as G2945; from the circle, that is, all around: – (round) about.

So it's apparent from the grammar in this passage that encircling this throne (of which Yahshua is in the midst of) are the myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands of “ every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them” (vs 14) who spoke “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever” as well as the the four living creatures that fell down and worshiped. The focus of the worship therefore must have been directed inwards towards Yahshua, and there is no mention of the sole recipient “sitting” as you suggested. John simply describes the multitudes uttering the highest praises imaginable to both “the Lamb” and “Him who sits on the throne”, then he describes the elders falling down in worship to the subject(s) before them. So dealing strictly with grammar and context of this passage and foregoing circular reasoning (i.e. the Lamb is worshipped because the Lamb isn't God), the conclusion on the reciever of the worship is obvious.

Secondly, I think it's very significant that the elements of the doxology recorded by John in Revelation 4:11 and 5:13 are similar, and if anything even stronger, more pronounced in the later passage:

Revelation 4:10-11
10the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11″Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”

Cf.

Revelation 5:11-14
11Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” 14And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen ” And the elders fell down and worshiped.

These expressions of praise and adoration, which are IMHO a form of worship in and of themselves, are the precursor to the acts of prostration in both instances (a common theme in the Revelation scenes) and I suggest to you Cubes that if what is described in Revelation 5:12-14 isn't divine worship (i.e. worship that can only be rightly received by the One true God) – then we actually have no scriptural frame of reference for WHAT divine worship actually IS. But we have already agreed that it is this kind of worship. It seems to me the multitudes are simply following the John5:23 mandate:

John 5:23
22″For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

I believe the scope of this “honour” would encompass worship….the Bible certainly places no restrictions on the honour rightly due to Yahshua, neither do I.

Blessings

Cubes, I would have liked to have worked on this post a little more before I submitted it, but have several social engagements forthcoming that will keep me away from HN. I not sure I've made myself very clear in parts so will further develop some aspects in the future if need be, and when time permits. Cheers.

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