Worship God the Father only?

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Posted: Dec. 08 2006,04:22   ——————————————————————————– First, some of the ones on here instead of discussing scripture, find it so much easier to dismiss something someone says based on who they are.  To me, this only seems to indicate that they really don't have any position to stand on.  Why not show why you are right rather than name call?  Saying that my belief about worship is wrong because of who I am rather than attempting to explain why is false reasoning. Proskyneo and it's Hebrew equivalent have a number of meanings.   It is not just the NWT that translate these words in different ways.   We KNOW they have more than one meaning. If anyone questions this, I'll need something more than people saying: “You're wrong because you're a JW.”  That only tells me you don't know how to reason or think correctly.  At least give me something to discuss.

David

I appreciate your attitude!

When I first came here I remember writing you off as just one of those JWs.

Well I have come to realize by the Lords conviction that God Loves you too.

I appologize for being a real Butt about you.

I dont agree with you but I believe that you are sincere. So I would like to have honest debate with you so we can both learn.

Blessings

PS You are right.

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If anyone questions this, I'll need something more than people saying: “You're wrong because you're a JW.”  That only tells me you don't know how to reason or think correctly.  At least give me something to discuss.

I will respond, But have another I need to respond to first

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Hi W, From the Living God, through Christ, essentially, Yes.  Especially, if you hold that Jesus is God! Again, after all, how can the head be a different species from the body? Or the groom from the bride?  Or the chief corner stone from the living stones…. yeah I know…. But these are the facts, my friend.   Mar 12:10   And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:   Mar 12:11   This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?   Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 1Jo 3:1   Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.   1Jo 3:2   Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.   1Jo 3:3   And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Hi Cubes

You are correct in that we share the divine nature of God. In fact humans are created in his Image.

II Peter 1:3,4
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the **divine nature**, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

We are Sons of God and his divine nature is in us by the new birth.

We  share in his Glory now…

II Cor 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

We also fight a spiritual battle with him in high places, the heavenly spiritual realms.

Eph 6:12,13
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

And if we overcome we will sit with him in his throne and rule with him in the world to come.

Rev 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

But my question to NH was do you believe we will share in his deity?

So I clarify. Jesus was the Only Begotten Son of God.
There is no other Son, (while there are many sons), that shares this eternal place with the Father. He is the firstborn of many brethren and because of this many Sons will share the Glory that he has with the Father and become one with him.

Col. 1:16,17
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Paul the Apostle has shown us here that all things were created by him. That means Jesus is not created nor could he have had a beginning. Unless he created himself.

We will never share that with God. For there are two classes of beings in the universe, the Creator and the Created.

Though we will be Glorified and be like him for we shall see him as he is. When the day comes this is what we will see…

Rev 5:11-14
And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Blessings

[david]

ON page 3 of this thread, Sammo posted a link to anther site that discusses the word proskyneo as used in the bible. The comments are interesting.

One person correctly points out that NEWER TRANSLATIONS “such as for example the Revised Standard Version (RSV), New International Version (NIV) or New American Standard Bible (NASB) the number of incidents in which the word worship is used about Jesus drops from fourteen to about six. The New English Bible (NEB) has none.”

So BIBLE TRANSLATORS ARE USING THE WORD “WORSHIP” LESS WITH REFERENCE TO JESUS. Not, just the NWT as some would falsely claim. Some, who will remain nameless, would go so far as to say that JW's don't “praise” Jesus, because we don't “worship” him, which is another one of their lies.

Anyway, the person on that website brings out some interesting points, one being that the meaning of the english word “worship” has changed over time. At one time, one meaning of that word, according to the Encyclopaedic Oxford English Dictionary, which has become obsolete is (verb): To honour; to regard or treat with honour or respect. To treat with signs of honour or respect; to salute, bow down to. To honour with gifts. To invest with, raise to, honour or repute; to confer honour or dignity upon.” And (noun): “The condition (in a person) of deserving, or being held in, esteem or repute; honour, distinction, renown; good name, credit . . . (Common down to 16th c.).

So, as the person on that other site, points out:

“So, the English word worship commonly meant the act of honouring a person, not necessarily a deity.”

So the KJV may have been correct in using the word worship at that time. But back then, that word had different conotations, apparently.

But it's also interesting that proskyneo and the Hebrew counterpart also have a number of meanings. They all have the basic meaning of bowing down with honour but don't always carry the thought of worship.

If any of you come back and say: You're wrong because you're a JW, I'll direct you to the “false reasoning” thread.

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I appreciate your attitude! When I first came here I remember writing you off as just one of those JWs. Well I have come to realize by the Lords conviction that God Loves you too. I appologize for being a real Butt about you.

I don't really remember you being a “butt” to me. I tend to shug most everything off except for the ones that come on here every so often with the intention of not discussing but rather slandering and doing so blatently and obviously.
Anyway, no harm, no foul.

David.

[david]

I feel that much of what is on that site should be considered:

The Greek word – Proskuneo

The second point we should notice is that while about ten different Greek words are translated into English as worship in the KJV, only the Greek work “Proskuneo” is translated worship in respect to the worship of Jesus (see Appendix 1 for the other Greek words for worship). Since most of the other Greek words for worship are exclusive to the worship of a deity, we might suspect that Proskuneo has a different meaning that is less exclusive and may include other than divine worship. We will find that in fact to be correct.

From Strong’s Greek dictionary
G4352
proskuneoô
pros-koo-neh'-o
From G4314 and probably a derivative of G2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog
licking his master’s hand); to fawn or crouch to, that is, (literally or figuratively)
prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore):—worship.

Vine’s Expository Dictionary defines Proskuneo as “to make obeisance, do reverence to.” And it says, “It is used as an act of homage or reverence.” Zondervan’s Analytical Greek Lexicon defines Proskuneo as: “To do reverence or homage by kissing the hand; in N.T. to do reverence or homage by prostration; to pay divine homage, worship, adore; to bow one’s self in adoration.”

The best way to determine the meaning of a word is to see how it is used in context. Although Proskuneo is usually translated “worship” in the KJV, we will see that from the context and from newer translations that it would be better translated as “bow down”, “prostrate”, “beg”, or “entreat”. The NEB generally translates Proskuneo as “bowed low,” “fell prostrate,” or “paid homage.” Benjamin Wilson’s “Emphatic Diaglott” (with its rare non-Trinitarian bias) typically translates it as “prostrate” or “do homage.” See Appendix 3 for a summary of the uses of Proskuneo we will look at in this article. It applies to the respect paid to a human lord, or to anyone in a position of power, as well as to God. It in fact describes the physical act of prostrating, kneeling or bowing down in respect or entreaty. The use of the word makes no implication as to the perceived humanity or divinity of the object. This is clearly seen from the use of Proskuneo in Mat 18:26 (the parable of the two debtors) where it is applied to the debtor pleading for mercy from his human lord.

Matt 18:25-26 KJV:
“25. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.”

Proskuneo is here translated “worshipped” in the KJV, but less archaicly translated “begged” in the NIV, “imploring” in the RSV, “prostrated himself” in the NASB and “fell prostrate” in the NEB. The servant clearly was not intending to imply any divinity in his creditor. Vine quotes in regard to this passage the note of the American Committee in the RV “At the word ‘worship’ in Matt 2:2 etc, add the marginal note ‘The Greek word denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to man (see chap 18:26) or to God (see chap 4:10)’” Notice also that the worship is often further defined in the text by the degree of bowing down: Bowing the head (as in prayer), bowing from the waist (“bowing low”), kneeling (on one knee, as before a king), kneeling on both knees (“falling down”), prostrate (face on the ground), and grasping the feet (in reverence or submission).

In Revelation 3:9 we see an example of Proskuneo applied to the human members of the church at Philadelphia”

”9. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

In this reference where it is obviously not talking about the worship of God, the NIV and the NEB translate the phrase as “come and fall down at your feet.” The RSV and NASB both say, “come and bow down at your feet.” So we see that where the object of Proskuneo is human, the modern translations have been unanimous in changing to a more modern English wording instead of “worship.”

It will also be obvious from the context of most of the scriptures where Proskuneo is applied to Jesus that the older meaning of worship is intended, not the modern meaning.

Specific Examples Considered: Begging or Entreaty

Matt 8:2 KJV:
“2. And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.”

The parallel account in Mark 1:40 says, “beseeching him and kneeling down to him.” The parallel passage in Luke 5:12 says, “fell on his face and besought him.” The leper was obviously bowing down begging to be healed and so the NASB translates it as “bowed down,” the NEB as “bowed low,” and the NIV and RSV as “knelt.”

Matt 9:18 KJV:
“18. While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.”

We can see a pattern, that Proskuneo is frequently used where someone is kneeling or bowing to beg or entreat Jesus. Again the NASB translates it here as “bowed down” and the NIV and RSV as “knelt”. The parallel passages in Mark 5:22 (“fell at his feet and besought him greatly”) and Luke 8:41 (“fell down at Jesus feet and besought him”) also clearly support this. What the ruler did was the physical act of prostrating in entreaty.

Matt 15:22-28 KJV:
“22. And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. 23. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 24. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table. 28. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt.”

Again the use of Proskuneo for begging. (NASB = “began to bow down before him,” NIV & RSV = “knelt”). The parallel account in Mark’s gospel (7:25) says, “fell at his feet.” There is a play on words here which is missed in the KJV, for Proskuneo means “to kiss like a dog licking his master’s hand,” and the woman refers to dogs eating the crumbs from the master’s table. The correct translation of Proskuneo enlivens the account, when we understand that when the woman referred to dogs begging for crumbs, she was herself on her knees begging like a dog for Jesus’ healing.

Matt 20:20 KJV:
“20. Then came to him the mother of Zebedee’s children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.”

Again, Proskuneo is used of entreating for a favor, and the NASB translates it as “bowing down” and the NIV and RSV as “kneeling.”

Mark 5:1-7 KJV:
“1. And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes. 2. And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3. Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: 4. Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains h
ad been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. 5. And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones. 6. But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, 7. And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. 8. For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.”

In this example, the demoniac is certainly not “worshipping” Jesus in the modern sense of that word. Rather, he is begging Jesus to go away and leave him alone. Again NASB = ”bowed down before” and NIV = “fell on his knees in front of” (although the RSV inconsistently retains the use of the word “worshipped”). The parallel Luke 8:28 says, “he cried out, and fell down before him.”

In the above examples we can see another common thread: frequently those who prostrated themselves were people who thought themselves particularly unworthy to merit help (the leper, the foreign woman of Canaan, the foreign lunatic, the debtor in the parable) or were asking the almost impossible (the ruler asking for the resurrection of his daughter).

More Examples: Bowing in submission

Hebrews 11:21, which is a puzzling reference in the KJV, becomes more clear now that we know the correct meaning of Proskuneo:

“21. By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.”

The Old Testament reference here is to Genesis 47:31, which says:

31. And he said, Swear unto me. And he sware unto him. And Israel bowed himself upon the bed’s head.

So we see here that Proskuneo in Hebrews 11:21 is the Greek equivalent of “bowed himself” (Hebrew: “shachah”) in Genesis 47:31. The Hebrew “shachah” is closely equivalent to the Greek Proskuneo. The Septuagint frequently translates shachah as proskuneo. (See Appendix 2 for more detail on the meaning of these two passages).

In Mark 15:19 we see the example of the Roman soldiers who are said in the KJV to have “worshipped” Jesus, but were clearly mocking him as “King” (because of his assertion that he was the King of the Jews) not as “God”. This makes it clear that Proskuneo was used of paying respect to a human king (even though in this case it was feigned):

“17. And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head, 18. And began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews! 19. And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him.”

Again Proskuneo is clearly connected to kneeling or prostrating. The NASB says “kneeling and bowing before him,” the NIV says “falling on their knees they paid homage to him,” and the RSV says “knelt down in homage to him.” The parallel in Matthew 27:29 says, “they bowed the knee before him.”

The next two scriptures, both regarding the same incident, illustrate the concept of paying homage to a king rather than to a God. The wise men came to worship Jesus as King of the Jews. This is the respect, honor or reverence that would be paid to a human king, not necessarily to God.

Matt 2:1-2 KJV:
“. . .behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, 2. Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

And then when they arrive at the house:
Matt 2:11 KJV:

“11. And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.”

Note again that Proskuneo involves falling prostrate. Notice also that in Matt 2:8, Herod, who clearly had not the slightest hint that this newborn King was the Son of God (and proved that by attempting to have him murdered) also said that he would come and “worship”. It would surely not be credible to suggest that Herod set out to knowingly kill God, but rather to eliminate a potential rival as king. So Herod was using the term to mean giving honour to a human king, not in the sense of worshipping a god.

Prostrating in Fear:

The next three scriptures show the disciple’s reaction to Jesus in fear.

Matt 28:8-10 KJV:
“8. And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word. 9. And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. 10. Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.”

It is obvious from the fact that they held him by the feet, that they had to fall down or prostrate themselves, which is how Proskuneo should have been translated. It is also clear from Jesus’ response (“Be not afraid”) that he recognized that they were reacting in fear and reverence of him. So this passage would be better translated as does the “Diaglott” as “prostrated to him.”

Matt 14:32-33 KJV:
“32. And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased. 33. Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.”

Again, the disciples were in awe of his power, having been in fear for their own lives. Ironically, the Living Bible (not usually a reliable translation and heavily Trinitarian) paraphrases this passage as “sat there, awestruck,” which probably carries the proper emotion, although it would seem that they did not merely “sit there” but fell off their seats (or to their knees) in awe. The parallel account in Mark 6:51 says, “they were sore amazed in themselves beyond measure and wondered.”

Matt 28:16- 17 KJV:
“16. Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.”

This verse is one of the least clear of all the examples, with a context that does not make the actions or intent obvious. It would be consistent with the previous examples to translate it as does the Diaglott, “prostrated to.” It may help to compare this with the disciple’s actions at the Transfiguration in Matt 17:6-7: “6. And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7. And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.” In that mountain where Jesus was proclaimed by God as his Son, and where we might most expect the disciples to worship, they prostrated themselves in fear, but are not described as “worshipping” in the modern sense.

Prostrating in Honour:

Luke 24:51-52 KJV:
51. And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. 52. And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.

The RSV, NEB and NASB* all omit the phrase in verse 52 “they worshipped him” as lacking manuscript authority. This is consistent with the following verse: “53. And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God.” The ultimate praise and worship is due to God. On the other hand, it would be neither surprising nor inappropriate for the disciples to prostrate themselves at the sight of Jesus ascending into heaven, however the parallel accounts in Mark and Acts do not mention them doing so.

John 9:38 KJV (the man born blind):
“35. Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? 36. He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? 37. And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. 38. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.”

In this example, the prostrating comes after the healing rath
er than before, but the connotation is the same. Oddly, although the Gospel of John is by far the predominant source of supposed suggestions of the divinity of Christ, this is the only case in John of Proskuneo applied to Jesus.

Men and Angels Commonly Accepted Worship:

Some have contended that it is never proper for anyone but God to accept reverence or being prostrated to, but there are many, many contrary examples in scripture, particularly in the Old Testament. Just a few examples:

Gen 18:2 – Abraham to the angels (whom he thought to be men)
Gen 19:1 – Lot to the same
Gen 23:7 – Abraham to the children of Heth
Gen 37:7, 9 – Joseph’s father, mother and brothers to him in prophetic vision
Gen 42:6 – his brothers to Joseph in Egypt (visions of Gen 37 fulfilled)
Gen 48:12 – Joseph before his father Jacob
Numbers 22:31 – Balaam to the angel
Joshua 5:14 – Joshua “worshipped” the angel (“man”), the “captain of the Lord’s host.”
Ruth 2:10 – Ruth to Boaz
I Samuel 20:41 – David to Jonathan
I Samuel 24:8 – David to Saul
I Samuel 25:23 – Abigail to David
II Samuel 15:5 – The people to Absalom
II Samuel 9:6, 9:8 – Mephibosheth to David
II Samuel 24:20 – Araunah to king David
I Chronicles 29:20 – The people “worship” the LORD and the king (David)…..

….all the examples of his being worshiped by humans are before that, not afterwards. This is a very important point. We actually find no direct instruction anywhere in scripture for us to worship Jesus in the modern sense of the word. There is not the slightest indication that the church was instructed to render religious worship to Jesus, and no evidence that the first century church ever did so. The concept of church worship of Jesus as God is entirely and completely absent from scripture. It is an unscriptural concept.

I feel much of what is posted in the above site deserves our attention.

david

[david]

I found this conversation between the Lockman foundation (the translators of the New American Standard Bible and this person to be most interesting:

An Exchange with The Lockman Foundation – Translators of the New American Standard Bible

Lest I be accused of bad amateur Greek scholarship (amateur yes, bad no) I had the following exchange with the Lockman Foundation, which is the organization that translated and publishes the New American Standard Bible, often cited as one of the most accurately literal modern translations. The Lockman Foundation website offers question and answer access to the translation board, responsible for the translation. It appears that their first response was by someone who was inexpert and did not think it through carefully. When I pointed out the error in that response, they referred it to the translation board for the second response. My questions are in blue and Lockman's responses are in red.

Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 11:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Feedback Form

From: (me)
The Greek word Proskuneo is sometimes translated as “worship”
and sometimes translated as “bow to” or “bow down to.” Why do
you use different translations in different places, and how
did you decide which to use in which cases? I notice that some-
times when it is used of Jesus it is translated as worship, and
other times as bow or the like. Also, in Rev 3:9 it appears
from your translations that this refers to bowing in humility to
the members of the church, but some commentators contend that it
indicates bowing in worship to God in the presence of the church.
Which do you think it means, and why, and how did you decide to
translate it the way you did?

Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 11:26:14 -0800
From: Carole Holdinski
Subject: RE: Feedback Form
To: (me)
Importance: Normal
Dear Friend in Christ,

Here is the answer to your recently submitted question regarding the
translation of “proskuneo”:

The word proskuneo means to prostrate oneself (bow down) and may or may not
carry with that the idea of worship. When worship is intended, it is
preferable to translate the word as such. Therefore the choice of
translation depends on the context. If another word for worship is in the
immediate context, proskuneo is translated as “bow down” or something
similar to avoid redundancy. When Jesus (or God) is the object of the verb,
it is inferred that worship is the correct idea because of Jesus' deity. As
to Rev 3:9, it seems clear that the context makes the church members the
object of proskuneo. One could argue the position you mention as a matter of
interpretation, but our concern would be that readers might infer that
worship of humans is acceptable under certain circumstances. Since proskuneo
need not always refer to worship, we think the simpler solution is to avoid
that denotation here. Otherwise, a word of explanation would be essential,
but there would be room for an adequate explanation only in reference
editions of the Bible.

From: (me)
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 9:19 PM
To: Carole Holdinski
Subject: A followup question to your feedback response
For Carole Holdinski

Dear Carole,

Thank you very much for the prompt and very helpful response to my question, which I am including below. I greatly appreciate the help. I hope it is OK to ask a followup question, as there was something that was not quite clear.

The response says that if another word for worship is in the immediate context, proskuneo is translated as “bow down” or something to avoid redundancy. You also say that when Jesus or God is the object of the verb, it is inferred that worship is the correct idea.

In the following passages, Jesus is the object of the verb proskuneo, and there is no other word for worship in the immediate context, yet you have translated it as bow down. I am wondering why that is so.

Matt 8:2 “And behold, a leper came to Him, and bowed down to Him saying, “Lord, if you are willing, You can make me clean”

Matt 9:18 “behold there came a synagogue official, and bowed down before Him, saying, “My daughter has just died; but come and lay Your hand on here, and she will live.”

Matt 15:25 “But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”

Matt 20:20 “The the mother of the sons of Zebedee cam to Him with her sons, bowing down and making a request of Him.”

Mark 5:6 “And seeing Jesus from a distance, he ran up and bowed before Him.”

Mark 15:19 “And the kept beating His head with a reed, and spitting at Him, and kneeling and bowing before Him.”

Do those instances indicate that you think that the bowing down in these instances was possibly not actually worship of Jesus as deity, but merely bowing down to him as a man for some other reason?

Since none of these instances are of the kind you refer to as having another word for worship in the context, can you point me to those instances that do?

Thank you so much for your help.

Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:11:26 -0800
From: Carole Holdinski
Subject: RE: A followup question to your feedback response
To: (me)
Importance: Normal
Dear Mr. MacDougall,

Thank you for contacting The Lockman Foundation.

In response to your inquiries of January 7th, we apologize for the length of
time it took to get back to you. Sometimes when a question such as yours
needs special attention, it is forwarded to the translation board and they
will answer as time permits. We thank you for your patience in this matter.

The Editorial Board writes:
Thank you for your observations. We should have been more specific in saying
that it is “preferable” to translate proskuneo as worship under the
conditions that we cited. It is certainly true that the choice of
translation depends on the context, and sometimes it is difficult to decide
between “bow down” and “worship”. When there is probably uncertainty about
Jesus' deity in the mind of the person bowing down, it seems best to
translate proskuneo simply as bowing down, focusing on the physical aspect
of the verb. Matt 8:2, 9:18, and 15:25 could fit under this category, and in
Mark 15:19 there is clearly no worship. This translation might also be
preferable in some instances where true worship may be taking place, but
“bow down” just fits the wording of the context better and can be inferred
as an act of true worship, as is the case in Matt 20:20.

We hope you find our web site http://www.lockman.org informative. To ask and answer
Bible questions please visit http://www.StudyBibleForum.com. If you are looking for
a Bible try http://www.FindaBible.com.

We appreciate your inquiry and are happy to communicate with you to address
any special needs regarding the New American Standard Bible or anything
produced by The Lockman Foundation.

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Notice a couple of things.

First, notice that they say that the choice of “worship” vs. “bow down” is a choice of the translator, and that Proskuneo is indeed used of acceptable obeisance to non-divine humans. This directly confirms my opinion on the meaning of Proskuneo. They don’t like to use the word “worship” in those cases, for fear that: “readers might infer that worship of humans is acceptable under certain circumstances.” Yet, it is the SAME word in Greek, which they freely admit IS acceptable to humans in certain circumstances. Does anyone see the obvious inconsistency there?

Second, they flat out admit that their use of “worship” is based
upon their presumption of the deity of Christ. They think Jesus is God, therefore they used the word “worship.” For readers to then turn around and say that because the word “worship” is used of Jesus, therefore Jesus must be God, is CLEARLY CIRCULAR REASONING. Notice also that they make no bones about the fact that their translation, one of the best, is in fact biased by Trinitarianism. [Capitalization added]

Please read this, and then read it again.

[kenrch]

Hi david,

“It is certainly true that the choice of
translation depends on the context, and sometimes it is difficult to decide
between “bow down” and “worship”.

Question:

People considered Jesus a “Teacher and ” Master” was the custom to bow down to a Teacher considered a Master? Did they bow down to the Pharisees?

Mat 8:19 And there came a scribe, and said unto him, Teacher, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.

Mat 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying, Teacher, we would see a sign from thee

Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his teacher: but every one when he is perfected shall be as his teacher.

Joh 1:38 And Jesus turned, and beheld them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? And they said unto him, Rabbi (which is to say, being interpreted, Teacher), where abideth thou?

Joh 13:14 If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, have washed your feet, ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

Luk 5:5 And Simon answered and said, Master, we toiled all night, and took nothing: but at thy word I will let down the nets.

Luk 8:24 And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. And he awoke, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm.

Luk 17:13 and they lifted up their voices, saying, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 08 2006,02:22)

Hi W, You say about the Son of God “Nevertheless he is at this moment the King of Glory, the resurrected Lord of Glory and is on the Right Hand of God.” I agree. So where did this idea of trinity come from?

Hi W,
You say
“Hes not above the Father, nor is he below the Father, But he is at the Right Hand of God.”
And then
“Hes at the Fathers Right Hand, a metaphor of the highest position there is with the Father.”

You quote
“Acts 7:54 YLT
And hearing these things, they were cut to the hearts, and did gnash the teeth at him; 7:55 and being full of the Holy Spirit, having looked stedfastly to the heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 7:56 and he said, `Lo, I see the heavens having been opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God.'7:57 And they, having cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and did rush with one accord upon him, 7:58 and having cast him forth outside of the city, they were stoning [him] — and the witnesses did put down their garments at the feet of a young man called Saul — 7:59 and they were stoning Stephen, calling and saying, `***Lord Jesus, receive my spirit***;' 7:60 and having bowed the knees, he cried with a loud voice, `Lord, may you not lay to them this sin;' and this having said, he fell asleep.”

So you are consistent in believing that Jesus is raised to the RIGHT HAND OF GOD, the highest place in the kingdom of God, under God. I agree. God has Jesus at His right hand . There is no third person seen here because the Spirit of God joins and enlivens the Father and His beloved Son.

But why do you then say God is a trinity?

The old soft shoe shuffle that allows you to look at any scripture that speaks of God and to state that it actually relates to the Father, undermines the theory that God is a trinity because scripture would clarify that for us without our help.

Of course 'GOD' relates to the Father because the Father is our God and the God of Jesus, so it is the added trinity fabrication that does not fit with scripture.

Storming off in a huff as if personally hurt by showing you scriptural truth does not help dialogue either.

[Proclaimer]

To WorshippingJesus.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2006,01:01)

Quote Hi W, From the Living God, through Christ, essentially, Yes. Especially, if you hold that Jesus is God! Again, after all, how can the head be a different species from the body? Or the groom from the bride? Or the chief corner stone from the living stones…. yeah I know…. But these are the facts, my friend. Mar 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner: Mar 12:11 This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 1Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1Jo 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Hi Cubes You are correct in that we share the divine nature of God. In fact humans are created in his Image. II Peter 1:3,4 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the **divine nature**, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. We are Sons of God and his divine nature is in us by the new birth. We share in his Glory now… II Cor 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord. We also fight a spiritual battle with him in high places, the heavenly spiritual realms. Eph 6:12,13 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. And if we overcome we will sit with him in his throne and rule with him in the world to come. Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. But my question to NH was do you believe we will share in his deity? So I clarify. Jesus was the Only Begotten Son of God. There is no other Son, (while there are many sons), that shares this eternal place with the Father. He is the firstborn of many brethren and because of this many Sons will share the Glory that he has with the Father and become one with him. Col. 1:16,17 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Paul the Apostle has shown us here that all things were created by him. That means Jesus is not created nor could he have had a beginning. Unless he created himself. We will never share that with God. For there are two classes of beings in the universe, the Creator and the Created. Though we will be Glorified and be like him for we shall see him as he is. When the day comes this is what we will see… Rev 5:11-14 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. Blessings

We will also be like Christ and Christ is like God.
In fact Jesus is the image of the invisible God.
He is the image.
He is not the God that he is reflecting and declaring.

HE IS THE IMAGE OF GOD.
We are MADE in the image of God.

We are the bride, he is the bridegroom.
BTW: We are not marrying God, rather the son of God.
It is even written that no one can see God and no one has seen him. To think that God died, ate fish, marries his bride is silly. Such a person has no understanding that God is beyond us. You can't go up to God and shake his hand. There is an unimaginable scale of difference between us and God and it is very human to shrink God down to our size or make something with our own mind, understanding, or hands as God.

But the reality is that we will see Jesus, the image of God. He will be the greatest revelation of God that we will get. Jesus Christ sitting on the Fathers throne, with the glory of God emanating through him and the river of life proceeding from the throne.

The invisible God, our Father and Jesus Father dwells in creation by his Spirit. He also exists outside of creation.

The trinity doctrine mocks God for scripture says that no one has seen God and no one can see God's form. We can only see his glory.

So we should quit with vain imaginations about God dieing and God being raised from the dead.

The truth is the son of God died and was resurrected. The son of God is whom God sent to save us.

Yes we honour/worship the son of God. We honour him not as God, but the son of God, the Word of God, the Wisdom of God, the Power of God, and the Lamb of God.

Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.“

BTW: you quoted the following:

Rev 5:11-14
And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

In context we can see that God is being worshipped/honoured as God, and the Lamb as the lamb. Not the lamb as God as some teach.

Revelation 7:10
And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

[Casey S Smith 29]

t8:

I think you have a very eloquent defense that is based on Scripture in which you make a rhetorical statement that has a logical implications in which if one denys they are definitely “ignorant”.

I have reiterated time and again that NO ONE CAN SEE God at any time nor has any seen him.

Jesus is the express image of the invisible God.

In regards to the actual Trinity doctrine that is theologically layed out in Orthodox teaching as is presented in creedal formulas elaborated by theologians in their scholastic document, let alone through the numerous manuscripts and apologetics in debates through the centuries…I think can not be sufficienty denied outright with just a simple statement or two. Otherwise you have one billion and one denominations to deal with hence today.

[Casey S Smith 29]

David:

I think I speak for most here that your pity party whiny poor me attitude that is prevelant with JW always thinking people hate them is making me freaking ill.

Quit defending yourself all the time and show you are not a typical JW that we run into everyday. Thus far that is all I have seen of you.

I realized that I spent a part of my life I cannot retrieve by critiquing your comments and postings since in the end all you did was run away with a tail between your legs.

We had a rapport and then I stated you were wrong and you got all childish and split.

In regards to your translation posts, you have no defense for your bias in that like all Watchtower subjects, “YOUR” bible is bent with an arian slant.

You say that “we” and all “our” translations are Trinitarian but you fail to recognize that since the early 1400's when the first English Bibles were copied and printed, there are multiple translations and versions that were not published by a Trinitarian adherents and that is simply because an actual Translation that utilizes the actual manuscripts and follows correct grammatical priniciples not to mention allowing for consideration of textual variants in the end will always produce a Scripture like the NASB, NIV, ESV…and tons of others.

Your NWT is basically your own organizations print much like the Mormon Bible. “We” Evangelicals and Protestants that find it more edifying and allowing us to make an analysis on a verse use translations that are not produced by a denomination for a denomination because of a denominations theological schemes or their “beef” with another group as you find in the NWT.

Your translators had not credintials to produce a translation.

They had no linguistic training in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, Latin, Coptic and other languages that are necessary to know in producing an acccurate translation.

They did not have any of the manuscripts be it papyrus or vellum at their disposal and or did not deem it necessary to use them.

In the end basically your Watchtower's literature called the New World Translation of Holy Scriptures is nothing more than another piece of literature used to make a defense for another cult to proport a heretical message that cause millions and billions eternity.

Pulling no punches with you anymore David.

[Casey S Smith 29]

PS:

By the way I just want everyone to know I do not plan on picking a fight or arguing with David about nonessentials or even actually picking his quotes apart any longer.

I will make comments along the way that stand out no matter who it is.

In lieu of any and all JW, all premises laid out will be given a fair treatment however do not expect me to agree with you or mention it is plausible to come to any conclusion that is unbiblical.

There are some such as disfellowship that is strictly enforced that I find commendable and there may be a few others and to them I will have no qualms over.

I may eat my words on this later but who cares. I just wanted to actually thank (yes, I did say thank) David for pounding me in the head over and over again Christmas and the pagan influences that are wihin it. I was not naive to those traditions that are obvious out of sinc with Scripture but the relentless posts by David on Christmas gave me a headache and I was unable to avoid his words in my head this season.

I still will celebrate Jesus's birth and honor it with my family (I do know David disagrees with that but even so…) but I told my wife that this Christmas has convicted me and pricked my heart unlike any previous ones gone by and the following Christmas's within our family will be presented and viewed in ways that will not go against my conscience, I am not going to throw out the baby with the dirty bath water but there is a lot more dirt in this water than I saw so I need to give him another bath!

[NickHassan]

Quote (Casey S Smith 29 @ Dec. 09 2006,16:48)

t8: I think you have a very eloquent defense that is based on Scripture in which you make a rhetorical statement that has a logical implications in which if one denys they are definitely “ignorant”. I have reiterated time and again that NO ONE CAN SEE God at any time nor has any seen him. Jesus is the express image of the invisible God. In regards to the actual Trinity doctrine that is theologically layed out in Orthodox teaching as is presented in creedal formulas elaborated by theologians in their scholastic document, let alone through the numerous manuscripts and apologetics in debates through the centuries…I think can not be sufficienty denied outright with just a simple statement or two. Otherwise you have one billion and one denominations to deal with hence today.

Hi Casey,
Christ is not divided.
So who are these groups that claim to be Christ divided?
Matt7
” 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Matthew 25:11
Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

The Spirit unites the sons of God.

[Casey S Smith 29]

Hi Casey,
Christ is not divided.
So who are these groups that claim to be Christ divided?
Matt7
” 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Matthew 25:11
Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

The Spirit unites the sons of God.

Well Nick, not quite sure what reference the Lord, Lord comment was made. If it was directed to me then that is your perogetive to think so. If anyone does not have the Spirit of God within him he is not in Christ…

Anyways…Now who are these groups you ask? Well, the irony and answer I will have to provide is within the NT itself. Paul had to correct these divided Church's in his own day. To each Church they did not have unity in knowledge on Christ nor in fellowship from the outflow on that.

We see in a glass darkly viewing unseen realities and truths. Who of us on here or anywhere else including you have the fulness of the revelation that is in Yeshua?

[Casey S Smith 29]

Nick:

I am curious on something I have been pondering for a lil over a week. I view all the threads and you are in all of them. When I come here you are always logged on. How do you have all the time to spend on this and also what reason why is it that you spend that time?

[NickHassan]

Quote (Casey S Smith 29 @ Dec. 09 2006,18:06)

Nick: I am curious on something I have been pondering for a lil over a week. I view all the threads and you are in all of them. When I come here you are always logged on. How do you have all the time to spend on this and also what reason why is it that you spend that time?

Hi Casey,
I am selfishly here to learn as much as I can from the reflections of others as I love Scripture and want to feed on the eternal food of truth.
I am also aware of the prisons of darkness that many are unknowingly in and hope to bring a glimmer of light to them to draw them to search in the right places for truth and to walk on the true path so that we might enjoy eternal fellowship with God, His son and each other.
That was the work of Jesus.
Lk 4
“18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.'

We are privileged to walk in his steps.

Life is short and who knows how much time we each have to set the seal on our futures.

[david]

Three pages back on this thread, I thought Casey stated that:

““Ok…I have concluded that the discussions on this site are futile.”

So I don't want to ask him to engage in something he considers futile, but I would like to actually discuss “worship” and whether Jesus should be worshipped, according to scripture.

I have pages and pages of scriptures from various Bibles. Perhaps the reason it seems I am always defending the NW translation is because all some do on here is attack it. You'll notice they don't defend their position (because they really can't) but can only attack a certain Bible. Above Casey says that I seem to always be defending myself, playin the part of a victim. Then, he goes on in that post only to discredit the NW translation, while not attempting to prove at all that Proskyneo should be translated as “worship” with reference to Jesus. Hmmm. I wonder why I am always falling into that role. Look back at his posts before that. They are much the same. Mostly attacks on the NW. No actual reasoning on the subject itself. Hmmm.

Fine. Let's never discuss the NW translation in relation to worshipping Jesus in this thread. I have no problem with that. It doesn't matter. Scripture, reason and logic will tell us whether Jesus should be worshipped. Attacking the NW translation doesn't really help your position. It shows your weekness.

SHOULD WE “WORSHIP” JESUS?

RSV = Revised Standard Version
NIV = New International Version
NASB = New American Standard Bible
NEB = New English Bible
YLT = Young’s Literal Translation
KJV = King James Version
JB = Jerusalem Bible
TEV = Good News Bible-Today’s English Version

THE HEBREW AND GREEK WORDS [proskynéo (Greek) and hishtachawah (Hebrew)] THAT ARE OFTEN TRANSLATED “WORSHIP,” HAVE A VARIETY OF MEANINGS.

And so the translators must decide which way to translate it.

At Hebrews 1:6 for example, the angels are instructed to “worship” Jesus in some Bibles. (RS, TEV, KJV, JB, NAB, etc.)
Whereas other Bibles translate it: “let them bow before him.” (YLT) or “pay homage to.” (NEB)
(No matter what English term is used, the original Greek remains the same and the understanding of what it is that the angels render to Christ must accord with the rest of the Scriptures.)

THE ENGLISH WORD “WORSHIP” USED TO CARRY ANOTHER MEANING WHICH IS OBSOLETE TODAY

The older KJV renders proskyneo as “worship” in every case. But it should be noted, that back then, the English word “worship” also carried another connotation that it doesn’t today, an obsolete definition of worship:
“To honour; to regard or treat with honour or respect. To treat with signs of honour or respect; to salute, bow down to. To honour with gifts. To invest with, raise to, honour or repute; to confer honour or dignity upon.” (The encyclopaedic Oxford English Dictionary)
And so, back then, when the KJV was made, that English word “worship” may have been the right choice. But the English language has changed. Many words in the KJV now mean a completely different thing than they did when the KJV was translated. For example, to “let” used to mean to “hinder.” Today the meaning usually attached to the expression is just the opposite, to “permit.” (2 Thess. 2:7) To “prevent” used to mean to “go before” or to “precede.” Today it means to “keep from happening.” (1 Thess. 4:15) “Conversation” used to mean “conduct.” Today it most often refers to talking with another. (Phil. 1:27) And for most persons today “shambles” does not refer to a “meat market,” as it used to, but to a “scene of destruction.”—1 Cor. 10:25.
Anyway, the point of this is to show that the older influential KJV may have made no mistake in it’s rendering of proskyneo (Gk) and hishtachawah (Heb) as “worship” because back then, that English word “worship” was sometimes used as meaning simply to “honour” or “bow down” before.

Today, the meaning of this English word has changed to limit the meaning to divine worship. However, back in the 1600's, that word was used of any human lord, nobles, or magistrates. We still see traces of the old meaning in such things as calling mayors, Justices of the Peace and magistrates in Commonwealth Realms as “Your worship.”

The English language has changed. And so more and more accurate translations are breaking away from tradition and are using “worship” with reference to Jesus.

Someone from the website link on page 3 of this thread states:
The New English Bible for example never uses the word “worship” about Jesus, with the possible exception of Rev 5:14. The NIV, RSV and NASB cut the 14 instances down to about 7. In each instance where there is a parallel in another gospel, the parallel passages all say something like fell at his feet, fell down before him, or some other explanation that is in keeping with the definition above of. Most newer versions omit Luke 24:52 as being without manuscript authority, but either way it means the same as above. Even the heavily trinitarian paraphrase Living Bible translates Matt 14:33 as “sat there, awestruck,” instead of worshipped, although the use of proskuneo would indicate that they actually fell off their seats in awe. In the KJV, many of the occurrences of the “worship” of Jesus make it clear that the meaning of prostrating is the correct understanding, by including such phrases as 'fell down” (Matt 2:11), “held him by the feet” (Matt 28:9).

Let’s actually look at how some Bibles translate certain passages:
(All translated as “worship” in the KJV)

Matt 2:2, 8, 11
RSV: worship(ed)
NIV: worship(ed)
NASB: worship(ed)
NEB: pay homage
Diaglott: do homage, reverence, honor,
no parallel passage

Matt 8:2
RSV: knelt
NIV: knelt
NASB: bowed down
NEB: bowed low
Parallel passages:
Mark 1:40 “beseeching him and kneeling down”
Luke 5:12 “fell on his face and besought him”

Matt 9:18
RSV: knelt
NIV: knelt
NASB: bowed down
NEB: bowed low
parallel passages:
Mark 5:22 “fell at his feet and besought him greatly”
Luke 8:41 “fell down at Jesus feet and besought him”

Matt 14:33
RSV: worshiped
NIV: worshiped
NASB: worshiped
NEB: fell at his feet
Living Bible: sat there awestruck
parallel passage:
Mark 6:51 “were sore amazed in themselves beyond measure and wondered”

Matt 15:25
RSV: knelt
NIV: knelt
NASB: began to bow down before him
NEB: fell at his feet
parallel passages:
Mark 7:25 “fell at his feet”

Matt 18:26
RSV: imploring
NIV: begged
NASB: prostrated himself
NEB: fell prostrate
no parallel passages

Matt 20:20
RSV: kneeling
NIV: kneeling
NASB: bowing down
NEB: bowed low
no parallel passages

Matt 28:9
RSV: worshiped
NIV: worshiped
NASB: worshiped
NEB: falling prostrate
Diaglott: prostrated to him,
no parallel passages

Matt 28:17
RSV: worshiped
NIV: worshiped
NASB: worshiped
NEB: fell prostrate
Diaglott: prostrated to him
no parallel passages, but:
compare to Matt 17:6-7

Mark 5:6
RSV: worshipped
NIV: fell on his knees in front of
NASB: bowed down before
NEB: flung himself down
parallel passage:
Luke 8:28 cried out and fell down before him

Mark 15:19
RSV: knelt in homage
NIV: falling on their knees they paid homage
NASB: kneeling and bowing before him
NEB: knelt and paid mock homage
parallel passage:
Matt 27:29 they bowed the knee before him

Luke 24:52
RSV: omitted
NIV: worshiped
NASB: some editions omit. (he NASB omitted the phrase: “and they worshiped him,” until the most recent revision, which reinstated it.)
NEB: omitted
parallel passages: M
ark 16 & Acts 1 omit

John 9:38
RSV: worshiped
NIV: worshiped
NASB: worshiped
NEB: bowed
Diaglott: threw himself prostrate
no parallel passage

Acts 10:25
RSV: worshiped
NIV: in reverence
NASB: worshiped
NEB: in reverence
compare Acts 16:29

Heb 1:6
RSV: worship
NIV: worship
NASB: worship
NEB: pay him homage
May be quote from Deut 32:43 LXX proskuneo, or from Psalm 97:7, Heb: shachah

Heb 11:21
RSV: bowing in worship
NIV: worshiped
NASB: worshiped
NEB: worshipped God
quoted from Gen 47:31 bowed himself

Rev 3:9
RSV: bow down
NIV: fall down
NASB: bow down
NEB: fall down
no parallel passage

We can note that in many parallel passages, the thought of bowing down is conveyed. Interestingly, the primary meaning of proskyneo is to bow down, whether in honor or respect or worship. So, if the parallel passages often only convey this thought, perhaps that is all we should read into it–since that is one of the possible meanings of proskyneo.

Realizing what I do now, about what the English word worship used to convey, I now understand how this scripture could make sense back then. (Because it makes no sense the way it is translated today):
MARK 15:19 (New King James Version)
“Then they struck Him on the head with a reed and spat on Him; and bowing the knee, they WORSHIPED Him.”
Many Bible's here have “paid homage to him,” or did “obeisance to him,” or something similar. Clearly, they were not spitting on him and at the same time worshiping him. The verse before (Mark 15:18) and Matthew 27:29 make clear that they “made fun” of him. It was in a mocking way that they did “obeisance to him,” bowing to him. They were not worshiping him and the context certainly doesn’t allow proskynéo to be translated as “worship” here.
But, the the word “worship” used to have a definition now obsolete, one that doesn't refer to divine worship, but to simply showing honour for someone. As I pointed out in a previous post, we still have remnants of this, where magistrates are called “your worship” or “his worship.” That english word “worship” used to convey a thought it no longer does.

But as for newer Bible translations, we see from this scripture that:
CLEARLY, IT SHOULD NOT ALWAYS BE TRANSLATED AS “WORSHIP.”

NOW CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING:
At MATTHEW 4:10 (RS), Jesus said: “You shall worship [from proskynéo] the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.”

(At Deuteronomy 6:13, which Jesus is evidently here quoting, appears the personal name of God, the Tetragrammaton.) In harmony with that, we must understand that it is proskynéo with a particular attitude of heart and mind that should be directed only toward God.)

I don't know. If you look at this topic, you'll find that I listed a lot of scriptures in the past. You'll find that I give a lot of reasons and definitions, etc.
Others, who argue with me often only seem to attack my Bible and don't even look at what I say I think.
Which one of us is being more truthful in our approach? If someone wants to discuss something, one thing, one subject, without attacking, they may find they do very badly and really have nothing more than their attacks to rely on.

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I was not naive to those traditions that are obvious out of sinc with Scripture

If this is so, why would he defend for pages something that is obviosly out “out of sinc with Scripture”? If someones traditions are out of sinc with scripture, and it's obvious, should someone get angry with me for showing the truth? I have a lot I haven't said about Christmas, but that's another thread.

david

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Cubes @ Dec. 03 2006,16:36)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Dec. 02 2006,14:03) Hi Cubes and David, Cornelius fell down to worship (proskuneō) Peter in Acts 10:25, but Peter made it clear that it was inappropriate to proskuneō him as he was just a man. Acts 10:25-26 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped (Gr. proskuneō) him. 26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also, am a man. Likewise, John sought to worship an angel twice in Revelation(19:10; 22:8,9), but the angel also forbade it because he was a “fellow servant” and commanded him to “proskuneō theos.” Revelation 19:10   And I fell at his feet to worship (Gr. proskuneō) him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship (Gr. proskuneō) God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Revelation 22:8-9   And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship (Gr. proskuneō) before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship (Gr. proskuneō) God. Considering the data in these passages would you agree that there appears to be a type of proskuneō that cannot rightly be offered to anyone other than God, proskuneō that, if given to the wrong subject, constitutes idolatry? Could I please have a 'yes' or 'no' answer….and yes, I will have some follow up questions (you knew I would!!)… Many blessings Hi Is, Considering the data in ALL of scripture, YES.

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Dec. 05 2006,23:57)

Quote (Cubes @ Dec. 03 2006,16:36) Hi again Cubes, Sorry it's taking me a while to respond to posts these days (busy times)… I guess the only real way to determine whether “proskuneō” is used to denote worship appropriate for the One true God is the context in which the word is placed into, right? Would you agree that this passage is describing the kind of worship that is appropriate only for YHWH? Revelation 4:10-11 10the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11″Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.” Again, it's another 'yes' or 'no' question. Blessings Hello Is, Not so fast, buddy!     Not sure I understand what you mean by “context” entirely. But I would say that it is important to know WHO is proskuneo'd and WHY.  Whether or not such a person IS the Most High God or UNDER God.  It determines the degree and spirit in which they are proskuneo'd. Done the wrong way, God is offended, the right way, he is glorified. If this is what you mean by context, then Yes, I agree.

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Dec. 06 2006,12:20)

Quote (Cubes @ Dec. 05 2006,22:10) Okay thanks – i'll take that as a yes. And by “context” I specifically mean the set of circumstances or facts that surround a particular event, situation, etc. Bear with me Cubes, one more two-part question and then I'll give you my thoughts. Revelation 5:11-14 11Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” 14And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen ” And the elders fell down and worshiped. Is this the 'reserved only for God' kind of worship? and if not, why not? PS; all my best to your husband, nice guy! Hi Is, Until you can separate the body from the head, or the living stones from the chief corner stone, or Jesus sitting on his throne from those whom the Father has given him and chosen to sit at Jesus' right hand… those who would sit w/ Jesus on his throne as he promised… until you can separate the bride from her groom… flesh, bones, joints, sinews from itself… Here are the options:   1)  Either the body of Christ would be proskuneo'd in like manner, indiscriminately and without prejudice, as indicated in Rev 5:11-14, (since after all, we are one with Christ etc) OR   2)  We can recognize the preeminence of Christ and acknowledge that although we are his body, in him, and in his vicinity, for various reasons and his specific experiences, he is our Lord and is the Lamb of God UNIQUELY and SPECIFICALLY referred to in 5:11f.   3) Now if one subscribes to option 2, then the Father must by necessity be recognized with even greater sovereignty and preeminence in all things.  I subscribe to option 2 and subsequently, by joyous default, to option 3! These are the only options.   The Trinity option does not fit this model.  Besides, the Holy Spirit is presumably missing as per the Trinity model. Mat 6:10  Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven. Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. The content (what is being said to whom) and context acknowledges that God Almighty is the HIGHEST sovereign known anywhere.

Hi Cubes,
I got a 'yes' or 'no' answer for the first two questions I asked, but
not the third one….I have some thoughts, but I require you to give me a direct answer to Q #3 first.

Blessings

[david]

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Revelation 5:11-14 11Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” 14And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen ” And the elders fell down and worshiped. Is this the 'reserved only for God' kind of worship? and if not, why not?

Hi Isaiah 1:18.

So this is what's in question:
“To Him who sits on the throne[Jehovah God], and to the Lamb[Jesus Christ], be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” 14And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen ” And the elders fell down and worshiped.”

So we know that both Jehovah and his Christ or annointed one are deserving of honor and glory and blessings of course. Verse 14 says that the elders fell down and worshiped. It doesn't say they worshiped Jesus. Jesus was standing before God's throne. And here's why we know that if it doens't specifically say that the elders were worshipping Jesus, we must assume that it's referring to Jehovah:

Jesus own words:
At MATTHEW 4:10 (RS), Jesus said: “You shall worship [from proskynéo] the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.”

At Deuteronomy 6:13, which Jesus is evidently here quoting, appears the personal name of God, the Tetragrammaton. In harmony with that, we must understand that it is proskynéo with a particular attitude of heart and mind that should be directed only toward God.
When he was here refering to the “lord” God, he was referring to Jehovah his Father, not himself. He quoted from a scripture that made reference to his father.

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Hi W, You say “Hes not above the Father, nor is he below the Father, But he is at the Right Hand of God.” And then “Hes at the Fathers Right Hand, a metaphor of the highest position there is with the Father.” You quote “Acts 7:54 YLT And hearing these things, they were cut to the hearts, and did gnash the teeth at him; 7:55 and being full of the Holy Spirit, having looked stedfastly to the heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 7:56 and he said, `Lo, I see the heavens having been opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God.'7:57 And they, having cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and did rush with one accord upon him, 7:58 and having cast him forth outside of the city, they were stoning [him] — and the witnesses did put down their garments at the feet of a young man called Saul — 7:59 and they were stoning Stephen, calling and saying, `***Lord Jesus, receive my spirit***;' 7:60 and having bowed the knees, he cried with a loud voice, `Lord, may you not lay to them this sin;' and this having said, he fell asleep.” So you are consistent in believing that Jesus is raised to the RIGHT HAND OF GOD, the highest place in the kingdom of God, under God. I agree. God has Jesus at His right hand . There is no third person seen here because the Spirit of God joins and enlivens the Father and His beloved Son. But why do you then say God is a trinity? The old soft shoe shuffle that allows you to look at any scripture that speaks of God and to state that it actually relates to the Father, undermines the theory that God is a trinity because scripture would clarify that for us without our help. Of course 'GOD' relates to the Father because the Father is our God and the God of Jesus, so it is the added trinity fabrication that does not fit with scripture. Storming off in a huff as if personally hurt by showing you scriptural truth does not help dialogue either.

NH

Notice you don’t see the title Father here either. What did he see? He saw the Glory of GOD, AND JESUS on the right Hand of GOD.

The reason you don’t see the Holy Spirit is Obvious, the Spirit is invisible and the Spirit was in Stephen testifying of our Lord Jesus. The ministry of the Holy Spirit is primarily to testify of Jesus.

Jn 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Again another attribute of the Spirit [Testify] that proves the Spirit is a person.

You say…

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There is no third person seen here because the Spirit of God joins and enlivens the Father and His beloved Son.

Could you explain?

The Spirit of God proceeds from the Father.  How can he enliven the Father and Son?

You say…

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But why do you then say God is a trinity? The old soft shoe shuffle that allows you to look at any scripture that speaks of God and to state that it actually relates to the Father, undermines the theory that God is a trinity because scripture would clarify that for us without our help. Of course 'GOD' relates to the Father because the Father is our God and the God of Jesus, so it is the added trinity fabrication that does not fit with scripture. Storming off in a huff as if personally hurt by showing you scriptural truth does not help dialogue either.

Actually NH the scripture by itself is not enough. Jesus said, Jn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

The Scribes and Pharisees of the day missed who Jesus was because they thought they had it figured out how the messiah was to come.

Without the Spirit of truth that Jesus and the Father sent us to open the scriptures and show us the truth therein, we only have a dead letter that men call the Word of God.

You say…

Quote

Storming off in a huff as if personally hurt by showing you scriptural truth does not help dialogue either.

You are right and yes I apologize for loosing it. And I hope you accept my oppology.

But I still have a question for you.

And they, having cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and did rush with one accord upon him, 7:58 and having cast him forth outside of the city, they were stoning [him] — and the witnesses did put down their garments at the feet of a young man called Saul — 7:59 and they were stoning Stephen, calling and saying, `***Lord Jesus, receive my spirit***;' 7:60 and having bowed the knees, he cried with a loud voice, `Lord, may you not lay to them this sin;' and this having said, he fell asleep.”

How could anyone but God answer Stephens prayer “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit”?

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
You say
“The reason you don’t see the Holy Spirit is Obvious, the Spirit is invisible and the Spirit was in Stephen testifying of our Lord Jesus. The ministry of the Holy Spirit is primarily to testify of Jesus.”

So the Holy Spirit is not in heaven?
Are you speaking of the Spirit of God here or the Spirit of Christ?

Is God invisible?

“Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

1 Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Hebrews 11:27
By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

So if the invisible God was seen in vision here why was not the invisible Spirit seen too?

[Author]

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