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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 03 2006,15:51) Hi,
Is 1.18 says that accepting worship is a sign one is God. Who would agree?
The AntiChrist will agree.
The question of whether or not we should worship Jesus has recently come up.
This is a whole thread on it.Hi,
David has rightly questioned whwther worship just involves bending the knee to a greater being.But is it not rather as shown in Deut 10.12?
“Deuteronomy 10:12
” Now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require from you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all His ways and love Him, and to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul,”Jesus repeated these instructions.
Matt 22
“37And He said to him, ” 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.”And Paul in Romans 12
“Romans 12:1
Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worshipAnd Peter in 1 Peter 1
“1 Peter 2:5
you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus ChristIs this the worship we offer to God alone? I think so.
Hi,
The teaching of scripture through the mouth of Jesus is that true worshipers worship the Father.
Why would men teach instead to worship Jesus?Hi,
Mk 12
” 6Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son. “Rev 22:9-Worship only God
Rev 19:-Worship only GodScripture mentions numerous examples of Christ accepting worship.
Luk 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
Mat 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
The scripture is very clear that Christ is God and is worthy of worship.
Quote (Faith First @ Dec. 01 2006,05:55) Rev 22:9-Worship only God
Rev 19:-Worship only GodScripture mentions numerous examples of Christ accepting worship.
Luk 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
Mat 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
The scripture is very clear that Christ is God and is worthy of worship.
Hi FF,
Inference is poor evidence.Show us scriptural proofs if you fear the God who told us to abide in the Word.
Quote Scripture mentions numerous examples of Christ accepting worship. Luk 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
Mat 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
Hi first faith. In your Bible the word proskyneo is translated as “worship” most likely because the ones who translated your Bible had a trinitarian bias. It could just as easily be translated as “giving obesience” or “bowing down” or several other ways. In the Bible, that Greek work proskyneo and the Hebrew equivalent are also used in reference to humans, to kings, etc. It's clear that it's not always to be translated worship. For example, when they were spitting on Jesus, mocking him, some Bibles say that they were worshipping him. But really, the word proskyneo has the basic meaning of “bowing down” and doesn't always imply worship. In this instance, for example, they clearly WERE NOT worshipping Jesus, but were simply bowing down to him in a mocking way. Yet, some Bible's (such as the KJ) mistakingly translate this “worship.” Other Bibles make the same mistakes.
The point of all this is that you can't look at your Bible and say: See, Jesus is God because he is worshipped, without understanding what the word proskyneo means. People look at this and use it to support the Jesus is Almighty God belief. And when they have that belief, they use that to support the way they translate proskyneo–as “worship.”
It's extremely circular in reasoning.
Nick Hassan quoted:
Quote Hi first faith. In your Bible the word proskyneo is translated as “worship” most likely because the ones who translated your Bible had a trinitarian bias. It could just as easily be translated as “giving obesience” or “bowing down” or several other ways. In the Bible, that Greek work proskyneo and the Hebrew equivalent are also used in reference to humans, to kings, etc. It's clear that it's not always to be translated worship The word proskuneo is a Greek word that literally means to worship, to prostrate oneself in homage, and to do reverence.
Your “translation” of “giving obesience” is from the Jehovah's Witnesses bible, which most Bible scholars agree is dishonestly translated.
Jehovahs Witnesses rely on their own “bible” because they cannot prove their doctrine from God's Holy Bible. Because of this they are widely known as a cult.
Here are some more verses.
Matthew 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship (proskuneo) him.
John 9:37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
John 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped (proskuneo) him.Matthew 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped (proskuneo) him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
Matthew 8:1 When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.
Matthew 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped (proskuneo) him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.Matthew 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped (proskuneo) him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.
Matthew 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped (proskuneo) him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
John 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped (proskuneo) him.
Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.Who is He that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters? Who are we called to worship?
John 1:3 All things were made by him (Christ); and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Hi Cult Buster (CB) and Faith First (FF):
WORSHIP=BOW=REVERENCE “Shachah” 07812
Not all acts of BOWING is considered as Shachah, unless noted specifically, e.g. Judges 7:6, 1 Sam 4:19 and other forms.Psalm 29:2 Give unto YHWH the glory due unto his name; worship YHWH in the beauty of holiness.
- Abraham Shachah Almighty God. That, we all need to understand off the bat, that YHWH rules over all. Psa 103:19 YHWH hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.
- Of his son, it is written: Psa 8:6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all [things] under his feet:
- Abraham Shachah the people of the land of his sojourning. (Gen 23:7, 12)
Isaac blessed Jacob and pronounced that he be Shachah by his brethen and nations: Gen 27:29 Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed [be] every one that curseth thee, and blessed [be] he that blesseth thee.
Jacob Shachah his brother Esau SEVEN times, and his own family shachah Esau. (Gen 33:3f)
Jacob's question to his son Joseph: Shall I and your mother and your brethren come and SHACHAH you? Gen 37:10…Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
Sure enough: Gen 42:6 ¶ And Joseph [was] the governor over the land, [and] he [it was] that sold to all the people of the land: and Joseph's brethren came, and bowed down themselves before him [with] their faces to the earth.Gen 47:31 And he said, Swear unto me. And he sware unto him. And Israel bowed himself upon the bed's head.
Joseph likewise Shachah is father.Gen 48:12 And Joseph brought them out from between his knees, and he bowed himself with his face to the earth.
Now, it is important to note that although Abraham, Jacob, Joseph were doing all this SHACHAH, that they never for once lost sight of the fact of who their True God is: same with us, in that we honor people under the authority of our YHWH, the Almighty God and Father of Jesus Christ. Those who claim Jesus as Almighty God, cannot help but lose sight of this, and in fact, because that is the unfortunate predicament of serving and worshipping a Trinity.Jacob's utmost acknowledgement: Gen 48:11 And Israel said unto Joseph, I had not thought to see thy face: and, lo, GOD HATH shewed me also thy seed.
And time would not permit me to tell you of Joseph who felt that God had blessed him and turned what was meant for evil, for good.
YHWH commands, we shall not Shachah any other Gods/gods or put others besides him or before him. In other words, all revenrence or honor shown to any other person is done in recognition that we have only ONE GOD, THE FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ (Ex 34:14).
Moses Shachah God (Ex 34:8).
The sons of the prophets of God Shachah Elisha: 2Ki 2:15 And when the sons of the prophets which [were] to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.
Ruth Shachah Boaz (Ruth 2:10), Abigail Shachah King David (1 Sam 25:23), Bathsheba Shachah King David 1 King 1:16, 31). I need to go and shachah my own husband too! It's long overdue. What a beautiful thing!
King Solomon Shachah his mother: 1Ki 2:19 ¶ Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.
With this in mind, we see that, it is quite alright to Shachah he who is greater than Isaac, Joseph, Boaz, David, etc. and that we can recognize and give appropriate worship to the Son of God, so long as we do not lose sight, that he is the gift of God Almighty – to whom belong our utmost worship – to us.Blessings.
Quote (david @ Dec. 01 2006,12:04) The point of all this is that you can't look at your Bible and say: See, Jesus is God because he is worshipped, without understanding what the word proskyneo means. People look at this and use it to support the Jesus is Almighty God belief. And when they have that belief, they use that to support the way they translate proskyneo–as “worship.”
Good point, David.Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.It is clear here that Christ is worthy of worship because He is God. The Father says so.
Quote (Faith First @ Dec. 02 2006,05:15) Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.It is clear here that Christ is worthy of worship because He is God. The Father says so.
Hi FF,Right. So far so good. But what do you do w/ verse 9 (i.e. Heb 1:9)?
Remember that Jesus considers himself as different being, with a different will than his Father. He is the God who does not do his own will but the will of his Father.
Quote (Faith First @ Dec. 02 2006,00:15) Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.It is clear here that Christ is worthy of worship because He is God. The Father says so.
Hi FF,
So God says Jesus is Himself??Hmm.
The Father here is speaking:
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God (Son), is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God(Son), even thy God (Father or Godhead), hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord (Son), in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:Even within the Godhead they each recognise each other as Lord and God.
Rev 4:8 …Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
Isa 6:4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.Holy, Holy, Holy
Why is it exclaimed three times?
Because there are three divine Beings that make up the Godhead; Three that rule this universe.
HOLY to the Father
HOLY to the Son
Holy to The Holy SpiritHoly, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty
Sorry “Jehovah Witnesses” and its offshoots, because your fundamental doctrines are flawed.
Hi FF,
You say
“Holy, Holy, HolyWhy is it exclaimed three times?
Because there are three divine Beings that make up the Godhead; Three that rule this universe.”
Can you not see the emperor is wearing no clothes?
Children could.
This extreme of inference always amuses me.Hi Cubes and David,
Cornelius fell down to worship (proskuneō) Peter in Acts 10:25, but Peter made it clear that it was inappropriate to proskuneō him as he was just a man.Acts 10:25-26
And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped (Gr. proskuneō) him. 26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also, am a man.Likewise, John sought to worship an angel twice in Revelation(19:10; 22:8,9), but the angel also forbade it because he was a “fellow servant” and commanded him to “proskuneō theos.”
Revelation 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship (Gr. proskuneō) him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship (Gr. proskuneō) God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.Revelation 22:8-9
And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship (Gr. proskuneō) before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship (Gr. proskuneō) God.Considering the data in these passages would you agree that there appears to be a type of proskuneō that cannot rightly be offered to anyone other than God, proskuneō that, if given to the wrong subject, constitutes idolatry?
Could I please have a 'yes' or 'no' answer….and yes, I will have some follow up questions (you knew I would!!)…
Many blessings
Yes! Totally agree.
There is a proskuneō that is appropriate solely to GOD.And there is a proskuneō appropriate to particular type of men e.g. kings, dignitaries, and of course, the highest man of all, the Messiah.
That is why when you look at the Hebrew equiv. word for proskuneō, shachah in the Hebrew Bible (OT), you see that it is used in regards to both men and GOD.
(Incidentally, shachah, is used more in ref. to men in the OT, then it is to GOD.
Also in the LXX, proskuneō is used where shachah appears in the OT.
They are equivalent words)So, no one ought to make an issue or disagree over the fact that Jesus the Messiah, the appointed King of Israel,
was proskuneō-ed.The point should be …
A) was he proskuneō as GOD?
OR B) was he (and is he) proskuneō as a great prophet of GOD,
and as the Messiah, the King of Israel, the Son of GOD?The evidence is clearly B
proskuneo is given to Jesus because this man IS the King of Israel,
the Lord Messiah, the Son of GOD.
He was proskuneo as the man Messiah NOT AS ALMIGHTY GODThat is why you have verses such as
(Mat 2:2) Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship [proskuneo, do reverence] him.
The magi sought out the child because they knew he was the new 'King of the Jews'. Therefore they came to proskuneo him, give him due reverence which is fitting to a king; not because they believed he was GOD! No! Even the scripture quoted,
Micah 5.2, speak of a ruler in IsraelWe should not read Nicene doctrines into scripture.
The magi were looking for a newly-born king, not the birth of GOD!
Likewise, there are other examples in the NT, of people, who were NOT Christ's disciples, however, they recognized that he was a great prophet sent of GOD. They may even have had an idea that he may be the Jewish Messiah; nonetheless, seeing that he was a great Prophet whom GOD was certainly with, evidenced by the miracles that had been performed; therefore, before making their petition to him, they first, as was the custom of that time (as also seen in the OT), made obeisance, proskuneo, to him; then they made their request.
These people didn't believe he was GOD. They certainly believed he was a man of GOD! Whom GOD was with!
[Acts 2.22 a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:]Throughout the OT, shachah/proskuneo is given to kings e.g. Saul, David, Solomon, etc
Likewise, when Jesus was giving a parable about a king, note what he says …(Mat 18:23-26) Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, … 25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold … 26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
In verse 29, this same wicked servant was beseeched.
Why the difference?
Because one was a king, the other a servant.
To the hearers, there was absolutely nothing strange about a king being worshipped/proskuneo!!Think about it
Do you really think that the hearers thought that Jesus was talking about a man worshipping 'God incarnate' Hmmm. Like I said, think about it.
I'll simply close with …
(John 1:49) Nathanael answered and saith unto him,
Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.(Mat 14:33) Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying,
Of a truth thou art the Son of God.(1 Chr 29:20) And David said to all the congregation, Now bless YAHWEH your God. And all the congregation blessed YAHWEH God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped YAHWEH, and the king.
1 Chr 29.20 is an example of shachah/proskuneo
given BOTH to GOD and the King of Israel.
Because …
there is an appropriate worship/proskuneo solely for GOD
because He is Almighty GOD alone.and there is an appropriate worship/proskuneo worthy for a king,
esp. the appointed king of Israel.Jesus the Lord Messiah was worshipped/proskuneo both as a man of GOD
(cp. 2 Kings 2.15, 4.37 )
and (by those who recognized him as such) as their King
(cp. 1 Sam 24.8, 2 Sam 14.22, 24.20, 1 Kings 1.16,23,31, etc)PS
Scripturally, proskuneo/shachah is used to give honor and show respect to someone.
Therefore, when it is refused, it is because in that context, such honor or proskuneo/shachah; is not appropriate, that's all!
Similar, to someone greeting you with accolades which you do not feel comfortable with, and therefore, you stop the person accordingly.Nevertheless, scripturally, proskuneo/shachah is used to give honor to someone who is highly regarded;
it is used in ref. to brothers, father-in-laws, mothers, kings, governors, prophets, angels, the Messiah, etc.
And of course, it is used in ref. to Almighty GOD- Abraham Shachah Almighty God. That, we all need to understand off the bat, that YHWH rules over all. Psa 103:19 YHWH hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.
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