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Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 09 2010,13:07) I was actually hoping for some trinitarians to pipe in with their explanation, but it seems I've only strengthened Kathi's belief in two God's. Bummer.
There is one true God identified as the Father.
Qualitatively speaking, there are many so-called gods.Just as there is one Devil and many devils.
One Adam and many adams (man).There are many more thrones than two.
e.g.,
Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.Revelation 4:4
Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.So what do thrones say about the Trinity?
Nothing.If thrones mean that someone is God, God would be more than 12 + 24 persons.
T8,
Quote Ask Ed to work out the name. There might be some hidden meaning you don't know about. Nice one. Edj, you up to the challenge?
T8,
Did you work out my little conumndrum to you in exchange for editing rights – it's been some time now? Thanks.Hi Mike,
What I means is everything is figurative not literal in John's vision. How can humans imagine a Spirit world that is has unlimited dimensionality (Some odf us can scarcely do thing in 3 dimension, especially after a few drinks!)
For instance, There us “a Sea of Glass, like crystal” – this earthlybased description represents The Holy Spirit, but elsewhere we are told that the Holy Spirit was like a Dove (Actually, so many people are mistaken here. The words are “Alighting Like a Dove” not “Alighting As a Dove” but how many people draw or say that the Holy Spirit is a Dove – the point is “How does a Dove alight”? With a soft flutter, perhaps?
Also the sever candle sticks are the Sevens Spirits of God, of God's Holy Spirit – the attributes of the Holy Spirit separate from it's source and owner.
A mass of people is represented a Seas (“And there will be no more seas” – no more separation of people?)
So, what does the description of a Throne really mean – a glorious authoritative vantage [something] that will encompass all of space and time and YHVH God Almighty will be there 'sitting' in the middle of it, perhaps. And through the four creatures surround the throne he can see all everything and in everything and know all things at all times, perhaps.
Quote (t8 @ April 10 2010,00:34) Qualitatively speaking, there are many so-called gods.
That's a very clear statement of polytheism.Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 09 2010,20:56) Quote (t8 @ April 10 2010,00:34) Qualitatively speaking, there are many so-called gods.
That's a very clear statement of polytheism.
AMEN!WJ
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 10 2010,12:56) Quote (t8 @ April 10 2010,00:34) Qualitatively speaking, there are many so-called gods.
That's a very clear statement of polytheism.
On second thought I think t8 is hedging his bets here. The words “qualitatively speaking” strongly affirms polytheism but the words “so-called” refute it (and are actually scriptual). So in the end it's a confusing and contradictory statement.Ha ha….
Is1 has just realised he messed up.
'So-called Gods' is not alluding to 'Gods as objects of worship' but to the other meaning of the word 'God, or god' which 'Mighty One', 'so called mighty ones'.
Trinitarians are desperate to find verses in scripture that say 'Jesus is God' and pull out even the most innocuous verses to make their claim… But when they read something like 'Man is a God' they distance themselves from the verse and make claim that it is nontrinis who are creating multiple Gods, polytheism, forgetting, or more like, ignoring, the fact that it was God and Jesus who also spoke those words in positiveness, that 'man, too, can, in a way, be also be gods', 'so-called gods'
'If he called them Gods', to whom the word came, and the scriptures cannot be broken, why do you call me a blasphemer if I say that I am the son of God'
JA………..Well said. Trinitarians can not bring a straight forward scripture to back up there heresy so they infer meaning to scriptures and force the text to push their false teachings as do Preexistences do. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………..gene
Gene,
And WJ backed him up with an Amen.
Since Is1 is his God and Is1 fouled up and apologised, WJ needs to follow in the ways of his God and retract the 'Amen'.
Quote (t8 @ April 10 2010,00:41) There are many more thrones than two. e.g.,
Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.Revelation 4:4
Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.So what do thrones say about the Trinity?
Nothing.If thrones mean that someone is God, God would be more than 12 + 24 persons.
Hi All,I guess I didn't make it clear what I was driving at in the first post. I'm not talking about the figurative language of Rev – whether the thrones are literal or not. Nor am I suggesting that there are only two thrones mentioned anywhere in the Bible. My point is, from a trinitarian view, not my view, why two thrones? If Jesus is God, why does he not sit on God's throne only, why does he need his own.
On the other hand, if all three persons in the godhead deserve their own throne, where is the Holy Spirit's throne mentioned? Is he not a co-equal ruler who deserves his own throne?
Does it not seem odd that there are two – not one and not three?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2010,11:22) My point is, from a trinitarian view, not my view, why two thrones? If Jesus is God, why does he not sit on God's throne only, why does he need his own.
MikeThe bigger question is why Jesus is able to sit in YWHHs throne and sharing the Glory of God?
WJ
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 09 2010,22:04) Quote I was actually hoping for some trinitarians to pipe in with their explanation, but it seems I've only strengthened Kathi's belief in two God's. Bummer. 
peace and love to you all,
mike
Mike. Pay attention.In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14, NASB)
cf.
“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. (John 14:16-17, NASB)
“Sealed”…
“In you”….
“Forever”…..Endure sound teaching.
Hi Paul,As usual, you didn't answer the point in question. Why doesn't the Holy Spirit, as a co-equal member of the godhead, have a throne of his own?
And the Scriptures you quote just further prove that God's Spirit is not a co-equal part of God, but a helper that the only true God sends at His will. “Given as a pledge”, “give you another helper”.
As far as being a polytheist, haven't you been reading that it is the trinitarians, who reject the “plurality of majesty” reasoning, who are the ones who believe in “gods”, not “God”?
Bury your head in the sand if you want, but the Bible mentions many gods. We are told to worship and serve only one of them – the only TRUE God as Jesus calls him. The one who is called the God of gods in Deut, Psalms and Daniel.
Quote Deuteronomy 10:17 NIV
For the LORD your God is God of godspeace and love to all true believers,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2010,11:22) Quote (t8 @ April 10 2010,00:41) There are many more thrones than two. e.g.,
Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.Revelation 4:4
Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.So what do thrones say about the Trinity?
Nothing.If thrones mean that someone is God, God would be more than 12 + 24 persons.
Hi All,I guess I didn't make it clear what I was driving at in the first post. I'm not talking about the figurative language of Rev – whether the thrones are literal or not. Nor am I suggesting that there are only two thrones mentioned anywhere in the Bible. My point is, from a trinitarian view, not my view, why two thrones? If Jesus is God, why does he not sit on God's throne only, why does he need his own.
On the other hand, if all three persons in the godhead deserve their own throne, where is the Holy Spirit's throne mentioned? Is he not a co-equal ruler who deserves his own throne?
Does it not seem odd that there are two – not one and not three?
peace and love,
mike
Mike,
It doesn't seem odd to meQuote (WorshippingJesus @ April 11 2010,03:29) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2010,11:22) My point is, from a trinitarian view, not my view, why two thrones? If Jesus is God, why does he not sit on God's throne only, why does he need his own.
MikeThe bigger question is why Jesus is able to sit in YWHHs throne and sharing the Glory of God?
WJ
Hi WJ,Is he said to sit in it “as God”, or “in the place of God”? No. He has been “GRANTED” to sit in his Father's throne “WITH HIM”. It's like John 1:1, how can an entity be with another entity, and at the same time be that entity?
And some of us will be granted to sit in Jesus' throne with him. Does that mean we will be equal to Jesus? Does it mean that we will become equal persons of the godhead?
And nowhere in the Bible is Jesus said to have God's glory.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2010,11:58) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 11 2010,03:29) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2010,11:22) My point is, from a trinitarian view, not my view, why two thrones? If Jesus is God, why does he not sit on God's throne only, why does he need his own.
MikeThe bigger question is why Jesus is able to sit in YWHHs throne and sharing the Glory of God?
WJ
Hi WJ,Is he said to sit in it “as God”, or “in the place of God”? No. He has been “GRANTED” to sit in his Father's throne “WITH HIM”. It's like John 1:1, how can an entity be with another entity, and at the same time be that entity?
And some of us will be granted to sit in Jesus' throne with him. Does that mean we will be equal to Jesus? Does it mean that we will become equal persons of the godhead?
And nowhere in the Bible is Jesus said to have God's glory.
peace and love,
mike
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Heb 1:3
Not only does he share the Glory of God, he is the radiance of his Glory and the exact representation of God's being!
The throne in the Hebrew culture was a representation of the Majesy and Glory of the King, and only the King sat in his throne, and his Glory was shared with no other!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 11 2010,05:39) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Heb 1:3
Not only does he share the Glory of God, he is the radiance of his Glory and the exact representation of God's being!
The throne in the Hebrew culture was a representation of the Majesy and Glory of the King, and only the King sat in his throne, and his Glory was shared with no other!
WJ
Hi WJ,Come on man. John 17:5 does NOT have Jesus being given God's glory, but his own glory he had before he became a man. Does only God have glory in the Bible? How about Solomon, the moon, the sun, etc.? Just because someone else has glory does not make it God's glory.
And in Heb 1:3, doesn't it make perfect sense that God's first and greatest creation would radiate His glory. All things created radiate the glory of God.
And if the throne is representative of Majesty, why two. Don't they have equal majesty? Why will we be allowed to sit on Jesus' throne, but not on God's?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ April 11 2010,03:57) Mike,
It doesn't seem odd to me
You just wait, little missy! I'm getting there.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2010,15:36) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 11 2010,05:39) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Heb 1:3
Not only does he share the Glory of God, he is the radiance of his Glory and the exact representation of God's being!
The throne in the Hebrew culture was a representation of the Majesy and Glory of the King, and only the King sat in his throne, and his Glory was shared with no other!
WJ
And if the throne is representative of Majesty, why two. Don't they have equal majesty? Why will we be allowed to sit on Jesus' throne, but not on God's?peace and love,
mike
MikeGood point, so why is Jesus the only one sitting in the throne with the Father and all crowns being thrown down at his feet?
Find me an OT example where a King shared his throne with another? Why was that Mike?
WJ
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