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All the debates center on proving that Christ pre-existed, I want to know what purpose it serves. Did God do it so that we would have something to debate? How does this doctrine work? What does it do for the believer? How does it help me along the journey to become like Christ?
What kind of fruit does it produce in my life? How does it edify or build me up?Hi Martian,
This might come as a complete shock to you and Gene, but it's not all about you.
Jesus doesn't have to have the existence that makes you the happiest. He has the existence that the scriptures clearly tell about. If you feel “jealous” or whatever that Jesus knew more than us, or was “different” than us, take it up with God. But please stop trying to butcher the scriptures to make “ascend to where I was before” be some kind of abstract riddle Jesus was telling. It says what it says, and when you add the fact that the disciples actually DID eventually see him ascend to where he was before, you don't even have a leg to stand on.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 15 2010,06:07) Hi Martian, This might come as a complete shock to you and Gene, but it's not all about you.
Jesus doesn't have to have the existence that makes you the happiest. He has the existence that the scriptures clearly tell about. If you feel “jealous” or whatever that Jesus knew more than us, or was “different” than us, take it up with God. But please stop trying to butcher the scriptures to make “ascend to where I was before” be some kind of abstract riddle Jesus was telling. It says what it says, and when you add the fact that the disciples actually DID eventually see him ascend to where he was before, you don't even have a leg to stand on.
mike
That's OK mike. If you cannot answer the questions just say so.
Why do you not post in the thread for the scripture you quoted instead of hijacking my thread.
Jesus does have to have purpose. his mission has purpose. His life has purpose. All true doctrine has purpose and good fruit. You say your doctrine is true show us the fruit.
This thread is about fruit and purpose and not about you or your dishonest use of scripture.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 15 2010,06:07) Hi Martian, This might come as a complete shock to you and Gene, but it's not all about you.
Jesus doesn't have to have the existence that makes you the happiest. He has the existence that the scriptures clearly tell about. If you feel “jealous” or whatever that Jesus knew more than us, or was “different” than us, take it up with God. But please stop trying to butcher the scriptures to make “ascend to where I was before” be some kind of abstract riddle Jesus was telling. It says what it says, and when you add the fact that the disciples actually DID eventually see him ascend to where he was before, you don't even have a leg to stand on.
mike
To quote WJ boy you are full of ad hominems. What you said has nothing to do with my post. It is just an attempt to smear my post and me. Not interested in being goaded by the likes of you.Sorry folks. Sometimes I must deal with the children. I am still looking for the rational to tell me the fruit of the doctrine of pre-existence. Show me how it benefits me and I will consider it.
Quote (martian @ Aug. 15 2010,14:04) Sorry folks. Sometimes I must deal with the children. I am still looking for the rational to tell me the fruit of the doctrine of pre-existence. Show me how it benefits me and I will consider it.
Martiani was looking at your remarks and i jump away of my computer screen to let all your ego blow beside me not on me.
it is obvious to me you are not in a position to receive truth your heart is still full of ego.and we know God will not open the eyes of those blind who say they can see.
Pierre
Hi Pierre,
I am almost to that same place with Martian. He puts his “wishes” above what scripture really says. He “wants” so badly for Jesus to be just like him that he is willing to overlook and butcher scriptures that say just the opposite.
Most of my family are JW's. They don't believe in a lake of fire/hell/gehenna. They think that it is figurative. That may be, I haven't really delved into it yet. But the thing is that they think this because they don't “want” their God to be someone who would punish people in this manner. I try to explain that God has set the consequences – it's up to us to choose a life that renders the good ones, not the bad ones.
I know God is love, just like they do. But this same God set consequences for the behavior of Judah. They didn't listen, and some of them ended up boiling their own children and eating them after the destruction of Jerusalem.
My point is that the JW's, like Martian, are willing to “gloss over” certain aspects of the scriptures so they can end up with the God they “wish” to have. That is what Martian does with Jesus.
Take scripture as it is written people. Believe and act accordingly. Don't try to fit scripture into you own little vision of what's right and wrong.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (martian @ Aug. 15 2010,05:01) All the debates center on proving that Christ pre-existed, I want to know what purpose it serves. Did God do it so that we would have something to debate? How does this doctrine work? What does it do for the believer? How does it help me along the journey to become like Christ?
What kind of fruit does it produce in my life? How does it edify or build me up?
It's not something that people want necessarily. It is just written that is all. Nothing more, nothing less.Why do people believe that God is spirit? Because it is written, same thing. Asking what is the fruit pertaining that God is a spirit is a non-relevant question, just the same as your question is non-relevant.
If something is written, it is up to us to believe that which is written or to not believe it. It is no more complicated than that.
T8
it does not matter if it is written or not ,just like the pharisees and scribes in Jesus time,they are blind in their hearts ,and their is nothing we can do,only God can.and if not they will go to the Gehenna fire,
many are coming to put there message on the forum,and try to see the reaction of some.
they are just like the Israelites who refuse to go to fight with Moses and latter change their mind and went to war even after Moses told them that God will not be with them,(they refuse to go wen God blessing is upon them but go wen God blessing is not there;go figure those people.)this reflects the 10 virgin.
Pierre
hi Mike
thanks,yea they are many religion who would like to be in charge of Gods way and will ,so they can show him what they want him to do for them and the ones who lesson to them,
this is the very which of Satan.Pierre
T8 and Martian………..It is also written the GOD created everything by (himself) and (alone). But you both chose to ignore it right? , then you try to say you are producing scripture to support your Preexistence of Jesus as a being Before his berth, But Peter does not say that when He spoke about Him being foreordained or planed (BUT) was manifested in our time, why don't you two look into what that means instead of trying to ignore this and then set about to force scripture to meet you (ASSUMED) positions. Martian tryied to show you both that God had a plan from the beginning and that plan was to save and perfect mankind ,Not some preexisting Demigod or angel but He would take of the womens seed to do it a pure Human being who came from the linage of King David Who would be a Prophet Like Moses said He was and that God would bring him forth from their brethren the Hebrews , not form some past existence as you both claim.
T8 and Mike ………..Why don't you both just join the Trinitarians They also teach preexistence as their religion dictates also. What makes you any different, both of you are denying Jesus' Pure Humanity and separating Him from you likeness. So how can you really use Jesus as (ANY) kind of example to you, seeing you consider Him as a separate type of person from yourselves? What do you two have in common with Jesus, it appears as nothing> IMO
peace and love………………………gene
Terriaricca…….All “FREE” Wills are the one trying to Make GOD fit (their) “Free Will” thinking and seem to always be the accusers of the brethren. Sneaking around looking for every opportunity they can find. Does that ring a bell? It should. IMO
gene
Jesus or more clearly, the only begotten Son, had to pre-exist because He was to be the outstretched arm of God to our creation, in a figurative way…like the right hand man so to speak. I know you are going to say that God was alone and that is the way He presents Himself to the Israelites…Him with His outstretched arm alone created the world.
Now, an important question you might ask is “why did the only begotten Son have to be deity?” . Man cannot die for all the sins of mankind. That is unacceptable. If you want scripture, then ask.
Hi Gene,
You said:
Quote It is also written the GOD created everything by (himself) and (alone). But you both chose to ignore it right? ,
Neh 9:6
You alone are the LORD. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, along with all their multitude of stars, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You impart life to them all, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.There were many people existing when Nehemiah said this. Did God “alone” make all of them? Did their natural fathers and mothers have anything at all to do with their existence? How about the fish in the sea? Were they individually made, one by one, ONLY by God? Or did they reproduce?
Don't ignore the scriptures that say all things came through God's Son just to fit this “alone” into your way of thinking. The scriptures say both things……..are they wrong? Or do we need to understand that “alone” implies that nothing that is would even be if it wasn't for God ALONE. No one else could have “started the ball rolling”, but He has appointed helpers throughout it all. But the ultimate credit for you existing does not go to your parents or grandparents etc, it goes to God ALONE.
You said:
Quote T8 and Mike ………..Why don't you both just join the Trinitarians They also teach preexistence as their religion dictates also. What makes you any different, both of you are denying Jesus' Pure Humanity and separating Him from you likeness. So how can you really use Jesus as (ANY) kind of example to you, seeing you consider Him as a separate type of person from yourselves? What do you two have in common with Jesus, it appears as nothing> IMO I won't join the trinitarians because the preach unscriptural things Gene. And God Himself is an example to us all, just like His Son is, but I don't see you saying God has to be just like us. And I do have this in common with Jesus, he followed and believed what scripture said. I do too.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 15 2010,22:43) Terriaricca…….All “FREE” Wills are the one trying to Make GOD fit (their) “Free Will” thinking and seem to always be the accusers of the brethren. Sneaking around looking for every opportunity they can find. Does that ring a bell? It should. IMO gene
genewhat make you think that you are my brother?if you were my brother you would believe the scriptures as they are.
Heb 3:4 For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything.
Heb 3:6 But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast….
SEE GENE YOU CAN NOT HOLD TO THE HOPE ,YOU ARE NOT FREE AND SO HAVE NO WILL ,YOU ARE PROGRAMED IN YOUR RELIGION AND STUCK THERE.
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 15 2010,13:08) Quote (martian @ Aug. 15 2010,14:04) Sorry folks. Sometimes I must deal with the children. I am still looking for the rational to tell me the fruit of the doctrine of pre-existence. Show me how it benefits me and I will consider it.
Martiani was looking at your remarks and i jump away of my computer screen to let all your ego blow beside me not on me.
it is obvious to me you are not in a position to receive truth your heart is still full of ego.and we know God will not open the eyes of those blind who say they can see.
Pierre
Pierre! This is so ironic, I just made a post in the preexisting tread about the same idea as you put here. That is God talking through us…..To me that is very interesting….. Go read what I said. To answer Martian. Why did God create a Son like Himself. Did you ever consider that He was alone and wanted a Son? When we get married, is it not a feeling of that we want children. Some go through the Tube to get that Child, they wanted for so long….. Also why did God create man? He loves us all, and that is why……t8 is right He does not need a reason also….He did and that's it….except it…..He is here I mean in Heaven where He was before John 17:5…..Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 15 2010,15:33) T8 and Martian………..It is also written the GOD created everything by (himself) and (alone). But you both chose to ignore it right?
Actually Gene, who is ignoring it?If God made all things, then it was him and no one else that made all things. If God made all things THROUGH Jesus, then it was still God and no one else who made all things, and it was THROUGH Christ and not another that he created all things.
Now we know that God created Eve, right?
And God made Eve through Adam, right?
And the head of the woman is the man, the head of the man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God, right?See, no contradiction, just harmony. Scripture is not in a state of contradiction Gene.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 15 2010,15:33) T8 and Mike ………..Why don't you both just join the Trinitarians
No. That would be silly.Quote (martian @ Aug. 15 2010,05:01) All the debates center on proving that Christ pre-existed, I want to know what purpose it serves. Did God do it so that we would have something to debate? How does this doctrine work? What does it do for the believer? How does it help me along the journey to become like Christ?
What kind of fruit does it produce in my life? How does it edify or build me up?Martian,
You bring up a good point. All scripture is profitable when it is believed and acted upon as God intended it to be.
It may seem I get a little off the subject of this thread, but please bear with me. I think readers will see my point.
Fruit one way of stating the profit of the scripture.
Good fruit is the result of a good tree.
BBBaaaddd fffrrruuuiiittt is the result of a bbbaaaddd tttrrreeeeee. I thought it might be fun to have a few words spelled according to trinitarian doctrine in that sentence and see how much flack I get for spelling things wrong.
Philippians 2:5 is impossible for us to do if Jesus Christ preexisted.
“Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus”
How can I think about my preexistence since I did not preexist?
How much controversy would I engender if I claimed, “Before Abraham was, I am” and said that meant I preexisted Abraham, because Jesus Christ thought he preexisted Abraham?
How can I ascend to where I was before, if I was not there before?
How can I think like Jesus Christ to think that I preexisted Abraham?
Would that not make me greater than Abraham?
Well am I greater than our father Abraham?
Any one want to tell me that I am greater than Abraham?
Since Abraham is greater than I, why would not Abraham preexist as well?
Well, then Jesus must have preexisted Abraham's preexistence.
Or did he? Since I am to have the mind of Christ, I must have preexisted Abraham.
You know if it is true that the phrase “Before Abraham was, I am” is Jesus Christ declaring that he is God, then we have a real problem.
Then according to Philippians 2:5, and John 14:12, I am to think that I am God, and I am to declare that I am God.
What is even more interesting is that John 14:12 states that I can do greater works than JC. But if he is God, , then as John 14:12 states, I should be able to do greater works than God.
Which trinitarian wants to claim that they believe scripture and have done greater works than God?
Any one?
I am waiting.
Come, you see my logic and the scriptures I have used, which scripture did I use incorrectly? and how was it used incorrectly?
Come on, Jesus is God crowd, think that you can do greater works than God and do the works. Let us see the fruit of that way of thinking.
Where is the good fruit in believing in preexistence?
(One of the verses, in the KJV, that has confused people along these lines is I Peter 1:11.
Consider the following rendering instead of the KJV, “Searching what, or what manner of time the spirit which was in them did signify of Christ, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.”
E.W. Bullinger, in his Companion Bible for one, suggests that reading. It makes perfect sense to me.
That rendering flows better within in itself and with all the OT prophecies concerning JC, his sufferings and glory to follow.)
There is none, none at all.
It leads to confusion and failure and frustration.
Good fruit is clarity, and success and more grace.
Believing in the preexistence of Christ puts us in an impossible situation that God does not approve of. God does not approve of us having other gods.
God is God, men are men, Christ Jesus is a man, I Timothy 2:5.
Certainly, therefore, not accepting the non-scriptural teaching of preexistence put me in a position to readily “let this mind be in me that was also in Christ Jesus.”
I am an ambassador for Christ. I can do the works of him that sent me.
Now that is good and godly fruit!
oatmeal
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