Who did god sacrifice his son to?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2009,15:16)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 30 2009,11:22) Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,22:50) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 29 2009,23:12) Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,14:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 29 2009,22:34) Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,09:03) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 29 2009,15:20) Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,04:36) Hi Bo, The scriptures do not show a connection between the scapegoat and Jesus.  Scriptures never say that Jesus is the scapegoat.  From what I can tell regarding the scapegoat, there is also a goat that dies.  There wasn't a scapegoat without another being killed.  Perhaps both represent what Jesus did and you are just looking at the goat that was released.  I understand the presentation of the two goats to show a blood sacrifice which provides for a full remission of sins which will not be remembered.  The two goats present a complete picture. Please respond to this verse and then Strong's definition of the word “slain.” Re 13:8 – All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. Slain is Strongs# 4969 Sphazo to slay, slaughter, butcher to put to death by violence mortally wounded Blessings, Kathi You should read that sentence again. I know what slain means and I didn't say that no one died on the cross I said Jesus didn't die on the cross. Just like Abrahams son didn't get sacrificed because God provided a substitute. Do you think God could provide a substiture for Isaac and not provide one for Jesus? Why do you think God stopped the sacrifice of Isaac? Don't you understand that was a foretelling of the mystery of Christ being saved by God because Isaac was obedient unto death and yet God spared him. Bo, So you agree that someone died on the cross…who was the lamb that was slain?  Can you show us with scripture? Also, Do I think that God would provide a substitute for Isaac and not for Jesus…Yes, because Isaac wasn't destined to die as a sacrifice, Jesus was. Kathi Where is the prophecy that the Messiah would be crucified and die for Israel? Bo, Here is your prophecy: Isa 53:7-12 7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due? 9 His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth. 10 But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand. 11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors. NASU BTW, why did you not answer my questions? God bless, Kathi How do you assume that is about Jesus? How was Jesus oppressed? Does Jesus have offspring? Jesus was never silent he spoke when they came to get him he spoke in private to Pontious Pilate he spoke on his way to the cross to the women and he even spoke on the cross according to the scriptures. 3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. This does not sound like Jesus, he was accepted of men and wildly popular so much so that he threatened the current system. He was esteemed greatl! Bo, This is not an assumption.  The NT clears up any confusion: Acts 8:32-37 32 Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this: “HE WAS LED AS A SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER; AND AS A LAMB BEFORE ITS SHEARER IS SILENT, SO HE DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH. 33 “IN HUMILIATION HIS JUDGMENT WAS TAKEN AWAY; WHO WILL RELATE HIS GENERATION? FOR HIS LIFE IS REMOVED FROM THE EARTH.” 34 The eunuch answered Philip and said, “Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. 36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” 37 [And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”] NASU Do you see? Blessings Bo, Kathi It says “His judgement” was taken away and of course his life was removed from the earth because God raised him up to himself. What it doesn't say that he preached to the eunich is that Jesus died for his sins and was raised from the dead. Even if he had preached that Jesus died on a cross it would simply mean that is what he believed to be true at the time. Why is it hard for you to believe that as a mystery unfolds surprises occur. For instance those waiting for the Messiah in Judaism there is no second coming so that would be a suprise and therefor they don't accept the first coming of Jesus because there Messiah was to come and rule the first time. Hi Bo, If what you say is so then Isaiah is a false prophet since you believe just part of his prophecy is true.  Remember that a prophet doesn't speak his words but God's words.  Isaiah couldn't have spoken from his point of view since he was speaking prophecy which is God's word not Isaiah's word not to mention that Isaiah had not seen any of that happen at the time he had written it.  Do you think that God doesn't know when someone is dead and when someone isn't? So, the way I see it is: You asked where a prophecy of Christ's death was. I showed you. You asked if it is assumption to apply that to Christ. I proved to you that it applied to Christ. You imply that the prophet Isaiah's prophecy is written from Isaiah's point of view and not truly a prophecy even though the event hadn't happened during Isaiah's life. You ask why it is hard for me to believe that as a mystery unfolds surprises occur? I do believe that there are many things that are not known but I believe that you have been shown clearly that Jesus shed His blood and died over and over according to scriptures and witnesses.  Why are you fighting this so hard Bo?  You admit that someone died on the cross. Kathi

Isaiah 1
1The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

I am not accusing Isaiah of anything.

Isaiah 42

“I am the LORD; I have called you in righteousness;
I will take you by the hand and keep you;
I will give you as a covenant for the people,
(M) a light for the nations,

7 to open the eyes that are blind,
to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon,
from the prison those who sit in darkness.
8 I am the LORD; that is my name;
my glory I give to no other,
nor my praise to carved idols.
9 Behold, the former things have come to pass,
and new things I now declare;
before they spring forth
I tell you of them.”

Isaiah 43
4 Because you are precious in my eyes,
and honored, and I love you,
I give men in return for you,
peoples in exchange for your life.

Isaiah 49

15 “Can a woman forget her nursing child,
that she should have no compassion on the son of her womb?
Even these may forget,
yet I will not forget you.

Isaiah 66
The Humble and Contrite in Spirit
1(A) Thus says the LORD:(B) “Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool;
what is the house that you would build for me,
and what is the place of my rest?
2Â All these things my hand has made,
and so all these things came to be,

declares the LORD.(D) But this is the one to whom I will look:
he who is humble and contrite in spirit
and trembles at my word.
3(E) “He who slaughters an ox is like one who kills a man;
he who sacrifices a lamb, like one who breaks a dog’s neck;
he who presents a grain offering, like one who offers(F) pig’s blood;
he who makes a memorial offering of frankincense, like one who blesses an idol.
(G) These have chosen their own ways,
and their soul delights in their abominations;
4(H) I also will choose harsh treatment for them
and bring(I) their fears upon them,
(J) because when I called, no one answered,
when I spoke, they did not listen;
(K) but they did what was evil in my eyes
and chose that in which I did not delight.”

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
You must be envious of the Jews to whom these verses apply.
Still in Christ, the Jewish man, you can also inherit their promises.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 31 2009,16:48)

Hi BD, You must be envious of the Jews to whom these verses apply. Still in Christ, the Jewish man, you can also inherit their promises.

I already have eaten his flesh and blood

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
So you say,
It curdled in your stomach and you spat out his words?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 31 2009,17:02)

Hi BD, So you say, It curdled in your stomach and you spat out his words?

You don't talk like someone who has listened to the words of Jesus

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Why ?
Have you yet to be called a snake or a viper or a whited sepulchre full of dead men's bones??

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 31 2009,18:12)

Hi BD, Why ? Have you yet to be called a snake or a viper or a whited sepulchre full of dead men's bones??

So you think you should say what Jesus said even without the knowledge of why he said what he said?

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Sons of the Serpent are serpents and his fruit is always of death.

[Lightenup]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 31 2009,00:32)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2009,15:16) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 30 2009,11:22) Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,22:50) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 29 2009,23:12) Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,14:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 29 2009,22:34) Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,09:03) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 29 2009,15:20) Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,04:36) Hi Bo, The scriptures do not show a connection between the scapegoat and Jesus.  Scriptures never say that Jesus is the scapegoat.  From what I can tell regarding the scapegoat, there is also a goat that dies.  There wasn't a scapegoat without another being killed.  Perhaps both represent what Jesus did and you are just looking at the goat that was released.  I understand the presentation of the two goats to show a blood sacrifice which provides for a full remission of sins which will not be remembered.  The two goats present a complete picture. Please respond to this verse and then Strong's definition of the word “slain.” Re 13:8 – All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. Slain is Strongs# 4969 Sphazo to slay, slaughter, butcher to put to death by violence mortally wounded Blessings, Kathi You should read that sentence again. I know what slain means and I didn't say that no one died on the cross I said Jesus didn't die on the cross. Just like Abrahams son didn't get sacrificed because God provided a substitute. Do you think God could provide a substiture for Isaac and not provide one for Jesus? Why do you think God stopped the sacrifice of Isaac? Don't you understand that was a foretelling of the mystery of Christ being saved by God because Isaac was obedient unto death and yet God spared him. Bo, So you agree that someone died on the cross…who was the lamb that was slain?  Can you show us with scripture? Also, Do I think that God would provide a substitute for Isaac and not for Jesus…Yes, because Isaac wasn't destined to die as a sacrifice, Jesus was. Kathi Where is the prophecy that the Messiah would be crucified and die for Israel? Bo, Here is your prophecy: Isa 53:7-12 7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due? 9 His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth. 10 But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand. 11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors. NASU BTW, why did you not answer my questions? God bless, Kathi How do you assume that is about Jesus? How was Jesus oppressed? Does Jesus have offspring? Jesus was never silent he spoke when they came to get him he spoke in private to Pontious Pilate he spoke on his way to the cross to the women and he even spoke on the cross according to the scriptures. 3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. This does not sound like Jesus, he was accepted of men and wildly popular so much so that he threatened the current system. He was esteemed greatl! Bo, This is not an assumption.  The NT clears up any confusion: Acts 8:32-37 32 Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this: “HE WAS LED AS A SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER; AND AS A LAMB BEFORE ITS SHEARER IS SILENT, SO HE DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH. 33 “IN HUMILIATION HIS JUDGMENT WAS TAKEN AWAY; WHO WILL RELATE HIS GENERATION? FOR HIS LIFE IS REMOVED FROM THE EARTH.” 34 The eunuch answered Philip and said, “Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. 36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” 37 [And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”] NASU Do you see? Blessings Bo, Kathi It says “His judgement” was taken away and of course his life was removed from the earth because God raised him up to himself. What it doesn't say that he preached to the eunich is that Jesus died for his sins and was raised from the dead. Even if he had preached that Jesus died on a cross it would simply mean that is what he believed to be true at the time. Why is it hard for you to believe that as a mystery unfolds surprises occur. For instance those waiting for the Messiah in Judaism there is no second coming so that would be a suprise and therefor they don't accept the first coming of Jesus because there Messiah was to come and rule the first time. Hi Bo, If what you say is so then Isaiah is a false prophet since you believe just part of his prophecy is true.  Remember that a prophet doesn't speak his words but God's words.  Isaiah couldn't have spoken from his point of view since he was speaking prophecy which is God's word not Isaiah's word not to mention that Isaiah had not seen any of that happen at the time he had written it.  Do you think that God doesn't know when someone is dead and when someone isn't? So, the way I see it is: You asked where a prophecy of Christ's death was. I showed you. You asked if it is assumption to apply that to Christ. I proved to you that it applied to Christ. You imply that the prophet Isaiah's prophecy is written from Isaiah's point of view and not truly a prophecy even though the event hadn't happened during Isaiah's life. You ask why it is hard for me to believe that as a mystery unfolds surprises occur? I do believe that there are many things that are not known but I believe that you have been shown clearly that Jesus shed His blood and died over and over according to scriptures and witnesses.  Why are you fighting this so hard Bo?  You admit that someone died on the cross. Kathi Isaiah 1 1The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. I am not accusing Isaiah of anything. Isaiah 42 “I am the LORD; I have called you in righteousness;   I will take you by the hand and keep you; I will give you as a covenant for the people,   (M) a light for the nations, 7  to open the eyes that are blind, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon,    from the prison those who sit in darkness. 8 I am the LORD; that is my name;    my glory I give to no other,   nor my praise to carved idols. 9 Behold, the former things have come to pass,    and new things I now declare; before they spring forth   I tell you of them.” Isaiah 43 4 Because you are precious in my eyes,   and honored, and I love you, I give men in return for you,   peoples in exchange for your life. Isaiah 49 15 “Can a woman forget her nursing child,   that she should have no compassion on the son of her womb? Even these may forget,   yet I will not forget you. Isaiah 66 The Humble and Contrite in Spirit 1(A) Thus says the LORD:(B) “Heaven is my throne,   and the earth is my footstool; what is the house that you would build for me,   and what is the place of my rest? 2© All these things my hand has made,   and so all these things came to be,         declares the LORD.(D) But this is the one to whom I will look:   he who is humble and contrite in spirit   and trembles at my word. 3(E) “He who slaughters an ox is like one who kills a man;   he who sacrifices a lamb, like one who breaks a dog’s neck; he who presents a grain offering, like one who offers(F) pig’s blood;   he who makes a memorial offering of frankincense, like one who blesses an idol. (G) These have chosen their own ways,   and their soul delights in their abominations; 4(H) I also will choose harsh treatment for them   and bring(I) their fears upon them, (J) because when I called, no one answered,   when I spoke, they did not listen; (K) but they did what was evil in my eyes   and chose that in which I did not delight.”

Bo,
Isaiah wrote this about Jesus long before Jesus was even born in the flesh:

10 But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors.

That should end this confusion of yours I would think.
Kathi

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2009,02:46)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 31 2009,00:32) Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2009,15:16) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 30 2009,11:22) Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,22:50) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 29 2009,23:12) Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,14:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 29 2009,22:34) Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,09:03) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 29 2009,15:20) Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,04:36) Hi Bo, The scriptures do not show a connection between the scapegoat and Jesus.  Scriptures never say that Jesus is the scapegoat.  From what I can tell regarding the scapegoat, there is also a goat that dies.  There wasn't a scapegoat without another being killed.  Perhaps both represent what Jesus did and you are just looking at the goat that was released.  I understand the presentation of the two goats to show a blood sacrifice which provides for a full remission of sins which will not be remembered.  The two goats present a complete picture. Please respond to this verse and then Strong's definition of the word “slain.” Re 13:8 – All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. Slain is Strongs# 4969 Sphazo to slay, slaughter, butcher to put to death by violence mortally wounded Blessings, Kathi You should read that sentence again. I know what slain means and I didn't say that no one died on the cross I said Jesus didn't die on the cross. Just like Abrahams son didn't get sacrificed because God provided a substitute. Do you think God could provide a substiture for Isaac and not provide one for Jesus? Why do you think God stopped the sacrifice of Isaac? Don't you understand that was a foretelling of the mystery of Christ being saved by God because Isaac was obedient unto death and yet God spared him. Bo, So you agree that someone died on the cross…who was the lamb that was slain?  Can you show us with scripture? Also, Do I think that God would provide a substitute for Isaac and not for Jesus…Yes, because Isaac wasn't destined to die as a sacrifice, Jesus was. Kathi Where is the prophecy that the Messiah would be crucified and die for Israel? Bo, Here is your prophecy: Isa 53:7-12 7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due? 9 His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth. 10 But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand. 11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors. NASU BTW, why did you not answer my questions? God bless, Kathi How do you assume that is about Jesus? How was Jesus oppressed? Does Jesus have offspring? Jesus was never silent he spoke when they came to get him he spoke in private to Pontious Pilate he spoke on his way to the cross to the women and he even spoke on the cross according to the scriptures. 3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. This does not sound like Jesus, he was accepted of men and wildly popular so much so that he threatened the current system. He was esteemed greatl! Bo, This is not an assumption.  The NT clears up any confusion: Acts 8:32-37 32 Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this: “HE WAS LED AS A SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER; AND AS A LAMB BEFORE ITS SHEARER IS SILENT, SO HE DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH. 33 “IN HUMILIATION HIS JUDGMENT WAS TAKEN AWAY; WHO WILL RELATE HIS GENERATION? FOR HIS LIFE IS REMOVED FROM THE EARTH.” 34 The eunuch answered Philip and said, “Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. 36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” 37 [And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”] NASU Do you see? Blessings Bo, Kathi It says “His judgement” was taken away and of course his life was removed from the earth because God raised him up to himself. What it doesn't say that he preached to the eunich is that Jesus died for his sins and was raised from the dead. Even if he had preached that Jesus died on a cross it would simply mean that is what he believed to be true at the time. Why is it hard for you to believe that as a mystery unfolds surprises occur. For instance those waiting for the Messiah in Judaism there is no second coming so that would be a suprise and therefor they don't accept the first coming of Jesus because there Messiah was to come and rule the first time. Hi Bo, If what you say is so then Isaiah is a false prophet since you believe just part of his prophecy is true.  Remember that a prophet doesn't speak his words but God's words.  Isaiah couldn't have spoken from his point of view since he was speaking prophecy which is God's word not Isaiah's word not to mention that Isaiah had not seen any of that happen at the time he had written it.  Do you think that God doesn't know when someone is dead and when someone isn't? So, the way I see it is: You asked where a prophecy of Christ's death was. I showed you. You asked if it is assumption to apply that to Christ. I proved to you that it applied to Christ. You imply that the prophet Isaiah's prophecy is written from Isaiah's point of view and not truly a prophecy even though the event hadn't happened during Isaiah's life. You ask why it is hard for me to believe that as a mystery unfolds surprises occur? I do believe that there are many things that are not known but I believe that you have been shown clearly that Jesus shed His blood and died over and over according to scriptures and witnesses.  Why are you fighting this so hard Bo?  You admit that someone died on the cross. Kathi Isaiah 1 1The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. I am not accusing Isaiah of anything. Isaiah 42 “I am the LORD; I have called you in righteousness;   I will take you by the hand and keep you; I will give you as a covenant for the people,   (M) a light for the nations, 7  to open the eyes that are blind, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon,    from the prison those who sit in darkness. 8 I am the LORD; that is my name;    my glory I give to no other,   nor my praise to carved idols. 9 Behold, the former things have come to pass,    and new things I now declare; before they spring forth   I tell you of them.” Isaiah 43 4 Because you are precious in my eyes,   and honored, and I love you, I give men in return for you,   peoples in exchange for your life. Isaiah 49 15 “Can a woman forget her nursing child,   that she should have no compassion on the son of her womb? Even these may forget,   yet I will not forget you. Isaiah 66 The Humble and Contrite in Spirit 1(A) Thus says the LORD:(B) “Heaven is my throne,   and the earth is my footstool; what is the house that you would build for me,   and what is the place of my rest? 2© All these things my hand has made,   and so all these things came to be,         declares the LORD.(D) But this is the one to whom I will look:   he who is humble and contrite in spirit   and trembles at my word. 3(E) “He who slaughters an ox is like one who kills a man;   he who sacrifices a lamb, like one who breaks a dog’s neck; he who presents a grain offering, like one who offers(F) pig’s blood;   he who makes a memorial offering of frankincense, like one who blesses an idol. (G) These have chosen their own ways,   and their soul delights in their abominations; 4(H) I also will choose harsh treatment for them   and bring(I) their fears upon them, (J) because when I called, no one answered,   when I spoke, they did not listen; (K) but they did what was evil in my eyes   and chose that in which I did not delight.” Bo, Isaiah wrote this about Jesus long before Jesus was even born in the flesh: 10 But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand. 11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors. That should end this confusion of yours I would think. Kathi

Isaiah had children i.e. offspring Jesus did not and Isaiah interceeded for the transgressors. This is what I'm talking about no one studies anymore than someone else has shown them but look:

Romans 11

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Jeremiah 27
18 But if they be prophets, and if the word of the LORD be with them, let them now make intercession to the LORD of hosts, that the vessels which are left in the house of the LORD, and in the house of the king of Judah, and at Jerusalem, go not to Babylon.

Apparently God allows prophets to make intercession for transgressors or for other things. That is why I say you are reading the scriptures out of supposition and possibly not out of The Holy Spirit.

All the prophets poured out their souls even unto death and they always interceeded on behalf of the transgressors don't you remember Moses pleading with God not to destroy those who sinned in the desert?

Don't just learn what others have pointed out before you try to understand what others could not see.

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
The Spirit of God comes to us through the Son of God.
Test the spirits.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 01 2009,06:01)

Hi BD, The Spirit of God comes to us through the Son of God. Test the spirits.

Which, Son of God?

[bodhitharta]

Are you the son of God, Nick?

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Read of him in Ps2.
Kiss the Son

[Lightenup]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 31 2009,13:57)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2009,02:46) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 31 2009,00:32) Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2009,15:16) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 30 2009,11:22) Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,22:50) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 29 2009,23:12) Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,14:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 29 2009,22:34) Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,09:03) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 29 2009,15:20) Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,04:36) Hi Bo, The scriptures do not show a connection between the scapegoat and Jesus.  Scriptures never say that Jesus is the scapegoat.  From what I can tell regarding the scapegoat, there is also a goat that dies.  There wasn't a scapegoat without another being killed.  Perhaps both represent what Jesus did and you are just looking at the goat that was released.  I understand the presentation of the two goats to show a blood sacrifice which provides for a full remission of sins which will not be remembered.  The two goats present a complete picture. Please respond to this verse and then Strong's definition of the word “slain.” Re 13:8 – All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. Slain is Strongs# 4969 Sphazo to slay, slaughter, butcher to put to death by violence mortally wounded Blessings, Kathi You should read that sentence again. I know what slain means and I didn't say that no one died on the cross I said Jesus didn't die on the cross. Just like Abrahams son didn't get sacrificed because God provided a substitute. Do you think God could provide a substiture for Isaac and not provide one for Jesus? Why do you think God stopped the sacrifice of Isaac? Don't you understand that was a foretelling of the mystery of Christ being saved by God because Isaac was obedient unto death and yet God spared him. Bo, So you agree that someone died on the cross…who was the lamb that was slain?  Can you show us with scripture? Also, Do I think that God would provide a substitute for Isaac and not for Jesus…Yes, because Isaac wasn't destined to die as a sacrifice, Jesus was. Kathi Where is the prophecy that the Messiah would be crucified and die for Israel? Bo, Here is your prophecy: Isa 53:7-12 7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due? 9 His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth. 10 But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand. 11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors. NASU BTW, why did you not answer my questions? God bless, Kathi How do you assume that is about Jesus? How was Jesus oppressed? Does Jesus have offspring? Jesus was never silent he spoke when they came to get him he spoke in private to Pontious Pilate he spoke on his way to the cross to the women and he even spoke on the cross according to the scriptures. 3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. This does not sound like Jesus, he was accepted of men and wildly popular so much so that he threatened the current system. He was esteemed greatl! Bo, This is not an assumption.  The NT clears up any confusion: Acts 8:32-37 32 Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this: “HE WAS LED AS A SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER; AND AS A LAMB BEFORE ITS SHEARER IS SILENT, SO HE DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH. 33 “IN HUMILIATION HIS JUDGMENT WAS TAKEN AWAY; WHO WILL RELATE HIS GENERATION? FOR HIS LIFE IS REMOVED FROM THE EARTH.” 34 The eunuch answered Philip and said, “Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. 36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” 37 [And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”] NASU Do you see? Blessings Bo, Kathi It says “His judgement” was taken away and of course his life was removed from the earth because God raised him up to himself. What it doesn't say that he preach ed to the eunich is that Jesus died for his sins and was raised from the dead. Even if he had preached that Jesus died on a cross it would simply mean that is what he believed to be true at the time. Why is it hard for you to believe that as a mystery unfolds surprises occur. For instance those waiting for the Messiah in Judaism there is no second coming so that would be a suprise and therefor they don't accept the first coming of Jesus because there Messiah was to come and rule the first time. Hi Bo, If what you say is so then Isaiah is a false prophet since you believe just part of his prophecy is true.  Remember that a prophet doesn't speak his words but God's words.  Isaiah couldn't have spoken from his point of view since he was speaking prophecy which is God's word not Isaiah's word not to mention that Isaiah had not seen any of that happen at the time he had written it.  Do you think that God doesn't know when someone is dead and when someone isn't? So, the way I see it is: You asked where a prophecy of Christ's death was. I showed you. You asked if it is assumption to apply that to Christ. I proved to you that it applied to Christ. You imply that the prophet Isaiah's prophecy is written from Isaiah's point of view and not truly a prophecy even though the event hadn't happened during Isaiah's life. You ask why it is hard for me to believe that as a mystery unfolds surprises occur? I do believe that there are many things that are not known but I believe that you have been shown clearly that Jesus shed His blood and died over and over according to scriptures and witnesses.  Why are you fighting this so hard Bo?  You admit that someone died on the cross. Kathi Isaiah 1 1The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. I am not accusing Isaiah of anything. Isaiah 42 “I am the LORD; I have called you in righteousness;   I will take you by the hand and keep you; I will give you as a covenant for the people,   (M) a light for the nations, 7  to open the eyes that are blind, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon,    from the prison those who sit in darkness. 8 I am the LORD; that is my name;    my glory I give to no other,   nor my praise to carved idols. 9 Behold, the former things have come to pass,    and new things I now declare; before they spring forth   I tell you of them.” Isaiah 43 4 Because you are precious in my eyes,   and honored, and I love you, I give men in return for you,   peoples in exchange for your life. Isaiah 49 15 “Can a woman forget her nursing child,   that she should have no compassion on the son of her womb? Even these may forget,   yet I will not forget you. Isaiah 66 The Humble and Contrite in Spirit 1(A) Thus says the LORD:(B) “Heaven is my throne,   and the earth is my footstool; what is the house that you would build for me,   and what is the place of my rest? 2© All these things my hand has made,   and so all these things came to be,         declares the LORD.(D) But this is the one to whom I will look:   he who is humble and contrite in spirit   and trembles at my word. 3(E) “He who slaughters an ox is like one who kills a man;   he who sacrifices a lamb, like one who breaks a dog’s neck; he who presents a grain offering, like one who offers(F) pig’s blood;   he who makes a memorial offering of frankincense, like one who blesses an idol. (G) These have chosen their own ways,   and their soul delights in their abominations; 4(H) I also will choose harsh treatment for them   and bring(I) their fears upon them, (J) because when I called, no one answered,   when I spoke, they did not listen; (K) but they did what was evil in my eyes   and chose that in which I did not delight.” Bo, Isaiah wrote this about Jesus long before Jesus was even born in the flesh: 10 But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand. 11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors. That should end this confusion of yours I would think. Kathi Isaiah had children i.e. offspring Jesus did not and Isaiah interceeded for the transgressors. This is what I'm talking about no one studies anymore than someone else has shown them but look: Romans 11 2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Jeremiah 27 18 But if they be prophets, and if the word of the LORD be with them, let them now make intercession to the LORD of hosts, that the vessels which are left in the house of the LORD, and in the house of the king of Judah, and at Jerusalem, go not to Babylon. Apparently God allows prophets to make intercession for transgressors or for other things. That is why I say you are reading the scriptures out of supposition and possibly not out of The Holy Spirit. All the prophets poured out their souls even unto death and they always interceeded on behalf of the transgressors don't you remember Moses pleading with God not to destroy those who sinned in the desert? Don't just learn what others have pointed out before you try to understand what others could not see.

Hi Bo,
The Son of God has offspring…David for one, and then David's children and their children, etc. because the Son of God was the root of David as well as his offspring. See here:

Rev 5:5
5 and one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”
NASU

Rev 22:16
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
NASU

So look again at the Isaiah prophecy.

Blessings,
Kathi

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2009,11:22)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 31 2009,13:57) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2009,02:46) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 31 2009,00:32) Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2009,15:16) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 30 2009,11:22) Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,22:50) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 29 2009,23:12) Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,14:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 29 2009,22:34) Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,09:03) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 29 2009,15:20) Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,04:36) Hi Bo, The scriptures do not show a connection between the scapegoat and Jesus.  Scriptures never say that Jesus is the scapegoat.  From what I can tell regarding the scapegoat, there is also a goat that dies.  There wasn't a scapegoat without another being killed.  Perhaps both represent what Jesus did and you are just looking at the goat that was released.  I understand the presentation of the two goats to show a blood sacrifice which provides for a full remission of sins which will not be remembered.  The two goats present a complete picture. Please respond to this verse and then Strong's definition of the word “slain.” Re 13:8 – All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. Slain is Strongs# 4969 Sphazo to slay, slaughter, butcher to put to death by violence mortally wounded Blessings, Kathi You should read that sentence again. I know what slain means and I didn't say that no one died on the cross I said Jesus didn't die on the cross. Just like Abrahams son didn't get sacrificed because God provided a substitute. Do you think God could provide a substiture for Isaac and not provide one for Jesus? Why do you think God stopped the sacrifice of Isaac? Don't you understand that was a foretelling of the mystery of Christ being saved by God because Isaac was obedient unto death and yet God spared him. Bo, So you agree that someone died on the cross…who was the lamb that was slain?  Can you show us with scripture? Also, Do I think that God would provide a substitute for Isaac and not for Jesus…Yes, because Isaac wasn't destined to die as a sacrifice, Jesus was. Kathi Where is the prophecy that the Messiah would be crucified and die for Israel? Bo, Here is your prophecy: Isa 53:7-12 7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due? 9 His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth. 10 But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand. 11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors. NASU BTW, why did you not answer my questions? God bless, Kathi How do you assume that is about Jesus? How was Jesus oppressed? Does Jesus have offspring? Jesus was never silent he spoke when they came to get him he spoke in private to Pontious Pilate he spoke on his way to the cross to the women and he even spoke on the cross according to the scriptures. 3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. This does not sound like Jesus, he was accepted of men and wildly popular so much so that he threatened the current system. He was esteemed greatl! Bo, This is not an assumption.  The NT clears up any confusion: Acts 8:32-37 32 Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this: “HE WAS LED AS A SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER; AND AS A LAMB BEFORE ITS SHEARER IS SILENT, SO HE DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH. 33 “IN HUMILIATION HIS JUDGMENT WAS TAKEN AWAY; WHO WILL RELATE HIS GENERATION? FOR HIS LIFE IS REMOVED FROM THE EARTH.” 34 The eunuch answered Philip and said, “Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. 36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” 37 [And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”] NASU Do you see? Blessings Bo, Kathi It says “His judgement” was taken away and of course his life was removed from the earth because God raised him up to himself. What it doesn't say that he preached to the eunich is that Jesus died for his sins and was raised from the dead. Even if he had preached that Jesus died on a cross it would simply mean that is what he believed to be true at the time. Why is it hard for you to believe that as a mystery unfolds surprises occur. For instance those waiting for the Messiah in Judaism there is no second coming so that would be a suprise and therefor they don't accept the first coming of Jesus because there Messiah was to come and rule the first time. Hi Bo, If what you say is so then Isaiah is a false prophet since you believe just part of his prophecy is true.  Remember that a prophet doesn't speak his words but God's words.  Isaiah couldn't have spoken from his point of view since he was speaking prophecy which is God's word not Isaiah's word not to mention that Isaiah had not seen any of that happen at the time he had written it.  Do you think that God doesn't know when someone is dead and when someone isn't? So, the way I see it is: You asked where a prophecy of Christ's death was. I showed you. You asked if it is assumption to apply that to Christ. I proved to you that it applied to Christ. You imply that the prophet Isaiah's prophecy is written from Isaiah's point of view and not truly a prophecy even though the event hadn't happened during Isaiah's life. You ask why it is hard for me to believe that as a mystery unfolds surprises occur? I do believe that there are many things that are not known but I believe that you have been shown clearly that Jesus shed His blood and died over and over according to scriptures and witnesses.  Why are you fighting this so hard Bo?  You admit that someone died on the cross. Kathi Isaiah 1 1The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. I am not accusing Isaiah of anything. Isaiah 42 “I am the LORD; I have called you in righteousness;   I will take you by the hand and keep you; I will give you as a covenant for the people,   (M) a light for the nations, 7  to open the eyes that are blind, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon,    from the prison those who sit in darkness. 8 I am the LORD; that is my name;    my glory I give to no other,   nor my praise to carved idols. 9 Behold, the former things have come to pass,    and new things I now declare; before they spring forth   I tell you of them.” Isaiah 43 4 Because you are precious in my eyes,   and honored, and I love you, I give men in return for you,   peoples in exchange for your life. Isaiah 49 15 “Can a woman forget her nursing child,   that she should have no compassion on the son of her womb? Even these may forget,   yet I will not forget you. Isaiah 66 The Humble and Contrite in Spirit 1(A) Thus says the LORD:(B) “Heaven is my throne,   and the earth is my footstool; what is the house that you would build for me,   and what is the place of my rest? 2© All these things my hand has made,   and so all these things came to be,         declares the LORD.(D) But this is the one to whom I will look:   he who is humble and contrite in spirit   and trembles at my word. 3(E) “He who slaughters an ox is like one who kills a man;   he who sacrifices a lamb, like one who breaks a dog’s neck; he who presents a grain offering, like one who offers(F) pig’s blood;   he who makes a memorial offering of frankincense, like one who blesses an idol. (G) These have chosen their own ways,   and their soul delights in their abominations; 4(H) I also will choose harsh treatment for them   and bring(I) their fears upon them, (J) because when I called, no one answered,   when I spoke, they did not listen; (K) but they did what was evil in my eyes   and chose that in which I did not delight.” Bo, Isaiah wrote this about Jesus long before Jesus was even born in the flesh: 10 But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand. 11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors. That should end this confusion of yours I would think. Kathi Isaiah had children i.e. offspring Jesus did not and Isaiah interceeded for the transgressors. This is what I'm talking about no one studies anymore than someone else has shown them but look: Romans 11 2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Jeremiah 27 18 But if they be prophets, and if the word of the LORD be with them, let them now make intercession to the LORD of hosts, that the vessels which are left in the house of the LORD, and in the house of the king of Judah, and at Jerusalem, go not to Babylon. Apparently God allows prophets to make intercession for transgressors or for other things. That is why I say you are reading the scriptures out of supposition and possibly not out of The Holy Spirit. All the prophets poured out their souls even unto death and they always interceeded on behalf of the transgressors don't you remember Moses pleading with God not to destroy those who sinned in the desert? Don't just learn what others have pointed out before you try to understand what others could not see. Hi Bo, The Son of God has offspring…David for one, and then David's children and their children, etc. because the Son of God was the root of David as well as his offspring.  See here: Rev 5:5 5 and one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.” NASU Rev 22:16 16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.” NASU So look again at the Isaiah prophecy. Blessings, Kathi

How is David the offspring of Jesus in physicality? And once you answer that then you must answer how is it that the scripture talks about the offspring of the suffering servant was Jesus suffering when he was the root of David?

You see your mind is stuck on key words that you have been taught, I can find scriptures that have the word pierce, transgressors, intercession, Saviour, redeemer and you will always assume they are referring to Jesus but most will not, so now tell me how
was Jesus suffering before David was his offspring?

[Lightenup]

Hi Bo,

Quote

How is David the offspring of Jesus in physicality? And once you answer that then you must answer how is it that the scripture talks about the offspring of the suffering servant was Jesus suffering when he was the root of David? You see your mind is stuck on key words that you have been taught, I can find scriptures that have the word pierce, transgressors, intercession, Saviour, redeemer and you will always assume they are referring to Jesus but most will not, so now tell me how was Jesus suffering before David was his offspring?

Why does the suffering have to be before David existed? The main idea is that the same one that was the root of David was also the offspring of David. He suffered at His crucifixion when He was a sheep that was slain. He saw or will see His offspring after His death and resurrection. He was the root of David as the Son of GOD that was David's source and He was the offspring of David as the Son of Man.

Remember that I have shown you that the verses in Isaiah is speaking of Jesus as is proven by Acts 8:32-37, remember? It is not an assumption but proof. Please realize this for your own benefit my friend.

God's love,
Kathi

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2009,13:36)

Hi Bo, Quote How is David the offspring of Jesus in physicality? And once you answer that then you must answer how is it that the scripture talks about the offspring of the suffering servant was Jesus suffering when he was the root of David? You see your mind is stuck on key words that you have been taught, I can find scriptures that have the word pierce, transgressors, intercession, Saviour, redeemer and you will always assume they are referring to Jesus but most will not, so now tell me how was Jesus suffering before David was his offspring? Why does the suffering have to be before David existed?  The main idea is that the same one that was the root of David was also the offspring of David.  He suffered at His crucifixion when He was a sheep that was slain.  He saw or will see His offspring after His death and resurrection.  He was the root of David as the Son of GOD that was David's source and He was the offspring of David as the Son of Man. Remember that I have shown you that the verses in Isaiah is speaking of Jesus as is proven by Acts 8:32-37, remember?  It is not an assumption but proof.  Please realize this for your own benefit my friend. God's love, Kathi

It says that the suffering servant would see his offspring, How was Jesus suffering before David.

You see referring to King Hezekiah we have the verse “Thy throne o God” and then people refer to it as if it was about Jesus but the psalmist was talking about Hezekiah just like the verse “To us a child is born, a son is given and he shall be called mighty God” these are not verses about Jesus

Note: I was paraphrasing

[Lightenup]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 31 2009,22:24)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2009,13:36) Hi Bo, Quote How is David the offspring of Jesus in physicality? And once you answer that then you must answer how is it that the scripture talks about the offspring of the suffering servant was Jesus suffering when he was the root of David? You see your mind is stuck on key words that you have been taught, I can find scriptures that have the word pierce, transgressors, intercession, Saviour, redeemer and you will always assume they are referring to Jesus but most will not, so now tell me how was Jesus suffering before David was his offspring? Why does the suffering have to be before David existed?  The main idea is that the same one that was the root of David was also the offspring of David.  He suffered at His crucifixion when He was a sheep that was slain.  He saw or will see His offspring after His death and resurrection.  He was the root of David as the Son of GOD that was David's source and He was the offspring of David as the Son of Man. Remember that I have shown you that the verses in Isaiah is speaking of Jesus as is proven by Acts 8:32-37, remember?  It is not an assumption but proof.  Please realize this for your own benefit my friend. God's love, Kathi It says that the suffering servant would see his offspring, How was Jesus suffering before David. You see referring to King Hezekiah we have the verse “Thy throne o God” and then people refer to it as if it was about Jesus but the psalmist was talking about Hezekiah just like the verse “To us a child is born, a son is given and he shall be called mighty God” these are not verses about Jesus Note: I was paraphrasing

Bo,
Do you think that Jesus sees or will see David in heaven? There He will see His offspring. Also, because of Him shedding His blood for others is why He will see them.

In Hebrews referring to the Son of God we have the verse “Thy throne O God…”

Heb 1:8-12
8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”
10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
NASU

This is also about Jesus:
Luke 2:10-14
10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people;
11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
12 “This will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”
13 And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,
14 “Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased.”
NASU

What “son” do you think is referred to in the verse “To us a child is born, a son is given and he shall be called might God” and what “son” was God referring to in the Hebrews passage?

Kathi

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2009,15:49)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 31 2009,22:24) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2009,13:36) Hi Bo, Quote How is David the offspring of Jesus in physicality? And once you answer that then you must answer how is it that the scripture talks about the offspring of the suffering servant was Jesus suffering when he was the root of David? You see your mind is stuck on key words that you have been taught, I can find scriptures that have the word pierce, transgressors, intercession, Saviour, redeemer and you will always assume they are referring to Jesus but most will not, so now tell me how was Jesus suffering before David was his offspring? Why does the suffering have to be before David existed?  The main idea is that the same one that was the root of David was also the offspring of David.  He suffered at His crucifixion when He was a sheep that was slain.  He saw or will see His offspring after His death and resurrection.  He was the root of David as the Son of GOD that was David's source and He was the offspring of David as the Son of Man. Remember that I have shown you that the verses in Isaiah is speaking of Jesus as is proven by Acts 8:32-37, remember?  It is not an assumption but proof.  Please realize this for your own benefit my friend. God's love, Kathi It says that the suffering servant would see his offspring, How was Jesus suffering before David. You see referring to King Hezekiah we have the verse “Thy throne o God” and then people refer to it as if it was about Jesus but the psalmist was talking about Hezekiah just like the verse “To us a child is born, a son is given and he shall be called mighty God” these are not verses about Jesus Note: I was paraphrasing Bo, Do you think that Jesus sees or will see David in heaven?  There He will see His offspring.  Also, because of Him shedding His blood for others is why He will see them. In Hebrews referring to the Son of God we have the verse “Thy throne O God…” Heb 1:8-12 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” NASU This is also about Jesus: Luke 2:10-14 10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; 11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12 “This will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.” 13 And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, 14 “Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased.” NASU What “son” do you think is referred to in the verse “To us a child is born, a son is given and he shall be called might God” and what “son” was God referring to in the Hebrews passage? Kathi

That's the whole point in Hebrews that quote is not coming from God at all it is a psalmist talking about a king. When the Bible says what saith the Lord it must say “The Lord said or God said or The Lord God said, otherwise God didn't say it” So it should not have been attributed to a saying of God.

Psalm 45
1 My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.

2 Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.

3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.

4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.

5 Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.

6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

The psalmist is not God speaking nor was he prophesying. The author of Hebrews simply said God said this to Jesus but the scripture says this is not right:

Jeremiah 8

8 “ How can you say, ‘We are wise,
And the law of the LORD is with us’?
Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood.

Jeremiah 23:20-22 (New King James Version)
20 The anger of the LORD will not turn back
Until He has executed and performed the thoughts of His heart.
In the latter days you will understand it perfectly.
21 “ I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran.
I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

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