Who did god sacrifice his son to?

[Lightenup]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2009,03:26)

Quote (seekingtruth @ July 28 2009,16:24) bodhitharta, You'll get no argument from me on the virtues of love, I'm a big proponent. But as to “working out your own salvation” one translation puts it “carry out to the goal” I believe this scripture does not mean method of salvation but the application of the salvation to our actions. Funny you should quote this scripture as just 3 verses earlier it says “And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross! hard to use one without accepting the other. My opinion – Wm Actually, that was my point. The scripture just right before saying to work out your salvation with fear and trembling talks about Jesus in such a way where it seems you would not have to work out your salvation with fear and trembling having already accepting Jesus as Lord but right after it says work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Even if it says “carry out to the goal” what goal would that be after accepting Jesus Christ as Lord?

Hi Bo,
As a thought to your question I suggest that just saying that Jesus is Lord does not necessarily save you. For example, a man can be married to his wife and have one affair after another. Compare that to a man who is married to his wife and he is purposefully faithful to her with his mind and heart and actions. You might say that they are both married to their wife but which one is truly married to his wife in his heart? Do you see that the one is giving “lip service” to his vow and the other has his whole heart behind his vow?

If Jesus is Lord of our life then we will be purposefully faithful to Him and some things that we need to do are obey Him, follow Him, serve Him, forgive others, ask forgiveness of our ongoing failures, etc.

So, as in marriage, you may say that you are married but you still have to work at being married well. It is not easy. In a similar way, it takes work to be a follower of Christ in your heart as well as in your mind and spirit. IMO

God bless ya Bo,
Kathi (going on 28 years married, PTL)

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2009,01:04)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2009,03:26) Quote (seekingtruth @ July 28 2009,16:24) bodhitharta, You'll get no argument from me on the virtues of love, I'm a big proponent. But as to “working out your own salvation” one translation puts it “carry out to the goal” I believe this scripture does not mean method of salvation but the application of the salvation to our actions. Funny you should quote this scripture as just 3 verses earlier it says “And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross! hard to use one without accepting the other. My opinion – Wm Actually, that was my point. The scripture just right before saying to work out your salvation with fear and trembling talks about Jesus in such a way where it seems you would not have to work out your salvation with fear and trembling having already accepting Jesus as Lord but right after it says work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Even if it says “carry out to the goal” what goal would that be after accepting Jesus Christ as Lord? Hi Bo, As a thought to your question I suggest that just saying that Jesus is Lord  does not necessarily save you.  For example, a man can be married to his wife and have one affair after another.  Compare that to a man who is married to his wife and he is purposefully faithful to her with his mind and heart and actions.  You might say that they are both married to their wife but which one is truly married to his wife in his heart?  Do you see that the one is giving “lip service” to his vow and the other has his whole heart behind his vow? If Jesus is Lord of our life then we will be purposefully faithful to Him and some things that we need to do are obey Him, follow Him, serve Him, forgive others, ask forgiveness of our ongoing failures, etc. So, as in marriage, you may say that you are married but you still have to work at being married well.  It is not easy.  In a similar way, it takes work to be a follower of Christ in your heart as well as in your mind and spirit. IMO God bless ya Bo, Kathi (going on 28 years married, PTL)

Hi Kathi,

God Bless you! Great to hear about the solid marriage.

Now of course in a marriage situation could you imagine as some cheating spouse may actually say “When I cheat on you it's not me but the sin in me” This is a Paulian statement. Jesus says plainly when you cheat you cheat and it is cause for divorce.

The point is if a person must be obedient they must be obedient before or after Christ coming into their life. Accepting Jesus does not make one superior over another otherwise the Christian could not be charged with sin at all.

Jesus called for even more strict morality then even the Law required. The law says don't kill, Jesus says don't be angry
The law says don't commit adultery, Jesus says lust is adultery so don't even look to much. Jesus taught for a reason, it would make no sense for him to teach all the masterful teachings that would make him a lord and then be crucified/sacrificed purposely.

God didn't need to offer Jesus up and who would He give this sin offering to, Satan? Who did God buy you from?

[Lightenup]

Hi Bo,
God required the blood sacrifice of a worthy flesh and blood being. The body that would satisfy once for all would be a body with the will of someone who was willingly participating in the sacrifice out of compassion and not compulsion also a body without blemish (sin). God, before there was even sin, prepared the one, His most precious possession, His only begotten Son to be unblemished and one day enter a body of flesh and blood so that blood could be shed. Jesus cooperated out of compassion AND obedience. God received Jesus' act of compassion and sacrifice to Himself as payment for OUR sins. Both sacrificed something great.

Without blood shed there would be no gun for the gun fight so to speak. We count on the blood to have been shed in order to fulfill the demand. If there were no blood shed out of compassion, there would be no Christians. IMO

Good day Bo,
Kathi

[Not3in1]

Excellent thread!!

[seekingtruth]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2009,14:26)

Quote (seekingtruth @ July 28 2009,16:24) bodhitharta, You'll get no argument from me on the virtues of love, I'm a big proponent. But as to “working out your own salvation” one translation puts it “carry out to the goal” I believe this scripture does not mean method of salvation but the application of the salvation to our actions. Funny you should quote this scripture as just 3 verses earlier it says “And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross! hard to use one without accepting the other. My opinion – Wm Actually, that was my point. The scripture just right before saying to work out your salvation with fear and trembling talks about Jesus in such a way where it seems you would not have to work out your salvation with fear and trembling having already accepting Jesus as Lord but right after it says work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Even if it says “carry out to the goal” what goal would that be after accepting Jesus Christ as Lord?

bodhitharta,
12So that, my beloved, as ye always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, with fear and trembling your own salvation work out, YLT

In my opinion and in my words means:
As you've always listened to me, even more now in my absence, remember to consider your salvation in all that you do, treating it with all the seriousness it is due.

As I said my opinion – Wm

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2009,02:57)

Hi Bo, God required the blood sacrifice of a worthy flesh and blood being.  The body that would satisfy once for all would be a body with the will of someone who was willingly participating in the sacrifice out of compassion and not compulsion also a body without blemish (sin).  God, before there was even sin, prepared the one, His most precious possession, His only begotten Son to be unblemished and one day enter a body of flesh and blood so that blood could be shed.  Jesus cooperated out of compassion AND obedience.  God received Jesus' act of compassion and sacrifice to Himself as payment for OUR sins.  Both sacrificed something great. Without blood shed there would be no gun for the gun fight so to speak.  We count on the blood to have been shed in order to fulfill the demand.  If there were no blood shed out of compassion, there would be no Christians. IMO Good day Bo, Kathi

I have already shown that death is not necessary for Atonement of sins. I have given leviticus as proof of the scapegoat that takes away the sin of the people by confessing all the sins on the head of the goat and the the Goat is presented ALIVE before the Lord and is set free ALIVE sent out into the wilderness. Just like Jesus was baptized for the repentence of the sins of Israel and took away their sins which is why Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness because if he had sinned he would have been in error.

Unless you can tell me another valid reason that Jesus was baptized. Jesus was baptized with the baptism of John which is for the remission of sins. Jesus commited no sin so the only way his baptism means anything at all is if Jesus was anointed to be baptized for the sins of all people. So whosoever believes in him shall be saved as he is interceeding for them.

There is no reason for him to be crucified at all and it goes against the teachings of God who hates human/child sacrifice besides that as I have been saying a sacrifice is sacrificed to someone so who was Jesus sacrificed up to? His own Father? God has no need for Sacrifice and even says

Hosea 6:5-7 (King James Version)

5Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth.

6For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings

Psalm 4:4-6 (King James Version)

4 Stand in awe, and sin not: commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah.

5 Offer the sacrifices of righteousness, and put your trust in the LORD.

and now the most stunning verse of all that proves that death and blood are not neccessary for forgiveness of sins is this.

Jeremiah 7 (King James Version)
22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

God says clearly it was not him who commanded them to make sacrifices at all. Case closed.

God says simply OBEY MY VOICE but still today

24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

Still today you demand a sacrifice because of the evil imagination. God never needed Sacrifice just like Israel never needed a King as God told them also.

[Lightenup]

Bo,
Where is Christ ever compared to the scapegoat? He was the sacrificial lamb, not a scapegoat.

Why do you put all human sacrifices in one big heap. God never required other men to be sacrificed therefore He would not condone it obviously. He just required it of one man. You don't seem to realize that.

Blessings,
Kathi

[NickHassan]

Hi,
The foolish powers on high did not realise when they got their servants to kill Jesus they were providing the right sacrifice that brought peace with God to those who are reborn into the Lord Jesus.

The rest remain under the wrath of God except for God's sovereign merciful choice.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2009,10:00)

Bo, Where is Christ ever compared to the scapegoat?  He was the sacrificial lamb, not a scapegoat. Why do you put all human sacrifices in one big heap.  God never required other men to be sacrificed therefore He would not condone it obviously.  He just required it of one man.  You don't seem to realize that. Blessings, Kathi

Sacrificial lamb? where is that scripture? John says he is the lamb of God to take away sins. John didn't say this is the lamb of God to die for the sins, did he?

Seriously, answer that.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 29 2009,10:18)

Hi, The foolish powers on high did not realise when they got their servants to kill Jesus they were providing the right sacrifice that brought peace with God to those who are reborn into the Lord Jesus. The rest remain under the wrath of God except for God's sovereign merciful choice.

Powers on High? Who are you talking about “I saw satan fall from the Sky”

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
1Cor 2
They crucified the Lord of glory

[Lightenup]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2009,23:16)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2009,10:00) Bo, Where is Christ ever compared to the scapegoat?  He was the sacrificial lamb, not a scapegoat. Why do you put all human sacrifices in one big heap.  God never required other men to be sacrificed therefore He would not condone it obviously.  He just required it of one man.  You don't seem to realize that. Blessings, Kathi Sacrificial lamb? where is that scripture? John says he is the lamb of God to take away sins. John didn't say this is the lamb of God to die for the sins, did he? Seriously, answer that.

Hi Bo,
Here are some verses that speak about the lamb that was sacrificed to redeem man and it is referring to Christ:

8 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

7:14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

12:11
“And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

Re 7:14 – I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 12:11
“And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

Re 13:8 – All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Slain is Strongs# 4969
Sphazo
to slay, slaughter, butcher
to put to death by violence
mortally wounded

Now that I have shown you, there might be a tendency to not want to see that. Please choose a desire for truth above all things, Bo, so you can see.

Now, your turn, please provide scripture that the scapegoat is likened to Christ as clearly as I have shown you that the blood of the LAMB is likened to Christ. If you can't would you please recognize that and stop comparing Christ to the scapegoat?

God bless ya Bo,
Kathi

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2009,16:52)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2009,23:16) Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2009,10:00) Bo, Where is Christ ever compared to the scapegoat?  He was the sacrificial lamb, not a scapegoat. Why do you put all human sacrifices in one big heap.  God never required other men to be sacrificed therefore He would not condone it obviously.  He just required it of one man.  You don't seem to realize that. Blessings, Kathi Sacrificial lamb? where is that scripture? John says he is the lamb of God to take away sins. John didn't say this is the lamb of God to die for the sins, did he? Seriously, answer that. Hi Bo, Here are some verses that speak about the lamb that was sacrificed to redeem man and it is referring to Christ: 8 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 7:14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 12:11 “And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. Re 7:14 – I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev 12:11 “And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. Re 13:8 – All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. Slain is Strongs# 4969 Sphazo to slay, slaughter, butcher to put to death by violence mortally wounded Now that I have shown you, there might be a tendency to not want to see that.  Please choose a desire for truth above all things, Bo, so you can see.   Now, your turn, please provide scripture that the scapegoat is likened to Christ as clearly as I have shown you that the blood of the LAMB is likened to Christ.  If you can't would you please recognize that and stop comparing Christ to the scapegoat? God bless ya Bo, Kathi

Notice it says “as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ”

What shall we say about the scapegoat?

21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

This scapegoat is the one that bears the iniquities just as you say Jesus does, the other offerings do not take away sin.

[Lightenup]

Hi Bo,
The scriptures do not show a connection between the scapegoat and Jesus. Scriptures never say that Jesus is the scapegoat. From what I can tell regarding the scapegoat, there is also a goat that dies. There wasn't a scapegoat without another being killed. Perhaps both represent what Jesus did and you are just looking at the goat that was released. I understand the presentation of the two goats to show a blood sacrifice which provides for a full remission of sins which will not be remembered. The two goats present a complete picture.

Please respond to this verse and then Strong's definition of the word “slain.”

Re 13:8 – All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Slain is Strongs# 4969
Sphazo
to slay, slaughter, butcher
to put to death by violence
mortally wounded

Blessings,
Kathi

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,04:36)

Hi Bo, The scriptures do not show a connection between the scapegoat and Jesus.  Scriptures never say that Jesus is the scapegoat.  From what I can tell regarding the scapegoat, there is also a goat that dies.  There wasn't a scapegoat without another being killed.  Perhaps both represent what Jesus did and you are just looking at the goat that was released.  I understand the presentation of the two goats to show a blood sacrifice which provides for a full remission of sins which will not be remembered.  The two goats present a complete picture. Please respond to this verse and then Strong's definition of the word “slain.” Re 13:8 – All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. Slain is Strongs# 4969 Sphazo to slay, slaughter, butcher to put to death by violence mortally wounded Blessings, Kathi

You should read that sentence again.

I know what slain means and I didn't say that no one died on the cross I said Jesus didn't die on the cross. Just like Abrahams son didn't get sacrificed because God provided a substitute. Do you think God could provide a substiture for Isaac and not provide one for Jesus?

Why do you think God stopped the sacrifice of Isaac? Don't you understand that was a foretelling of the mystery of Christ being saved by God because Isaac was obedient unto death and yet God spared him.

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
So now a mysterious substitute emerges whose identity bypasses scripture?
You cannot accept Jesus died because his resurrection from the dead offends your religion.

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Your leader is still in his grave is he not?
Not greater than the son of God after all?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 30 2009,07:22)

Hi BD, So now a mysterious substitute emerges whose identity bypasses scripture? You cannot accept Jesus died because his resurrection from the dead offends your religion.

Nick

You seem to not understand that if Jesus died on the cross or not it would not affect my religion. Because I love Jesus no matter what. The fact is I have faith in God that he saved his anointed one and Islam confirms this as well.

Your every hope is based upon the death of someone, my every hope is in the EVERLIVING ETERNAL GOD so which is greater death or life, you decide.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 30 2009,07:23)

Hi BD, Your leader is still in his grave is he not? Not greater than the son of God after all?

Not according to Jesus. Why would he be in the grave when Jesus says God is the God of the Living, Jesus says he is alive.

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Does your averred love of Jesus yet affect your future prospects or are you under the wrath of God?

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