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He sacrificed Jesus for us.
The Father is, perfect justice. I believe that conflicted with His love in that to let our sins go unpunished would not provide justice to those suffering from the injustices.
I also believe that it was the Fathers plan for man to have eternal life (hence the tree of life in the garden). If we had achieved eternal life prior to the sacrifice then I believe we would have been lost with no hope.
I further believe that the God gave man dominion over the earth and in doing so He cannot just step in, otherwise He never truly gave dominion.
I also believe that the Father could not allow those with sins to enter eternity as they would ruin it as seen by our world.
With Jesus it allowed the Father to assign the sacrifice as payment for the sins of man and provide a path to eternal life.
The Gospel is that God has made a way.
My opinion – Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ July 26 2009,14:36) He sacrificed Jesus for us. The Father is, perfect justice. I believe that conflicted with His love in that to let our sins go unpunished would not provide justice to those suffering from the injustices.
I also believe that it was the Fathers plan for man to have eternal life (hence the tree of life in the garden). If we had achieved eternal life prior to the sacrifice then I believe we would have been lost with no hope.
I further believe that the God gave man dominion over the earth and in doing so He cannot just step in, otherwise He never truly gave dominion.
I also believe that the Father could not allow those with sins to enter eternity as they would ruin it as seen by our world.
With Jesus it allowed the Father to assign the sacrifice as payment for the sins of man and provide a path to eternal life.
The Gospel is that God has made a way.
My opinion – Wm
So God offered up a Sacrifice to Us?You said He sacrificed Jesus for us but who did He offer this sacrifice to?
Also, God hates Human Sacrifice and said He never commanded it or even ever think of it.
Jeremiah 32:34-36 (King James Version)
35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Was God only talking about sacrificing children to other gods?
God did not put Jesus on the cross nor did He instruct it to be so. However the death of the blameless Son of God who offered Himself up, despising the shame, but for the glory set before Him He allowed sinful man to have their way and what satan meant for evil, God meant for good.
My opinion – Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ July 26 2009,15:05) God did not put Jesus on the cross nor did He instruct it to be so. However the death of the blameless Son of God who offered Himself up, despising the shame, but for the glory set before Him He allowed sinful man to have their way and what satan meant for evil, God meant for good. My opinion – Wm
Did he offer himself up or was it a murder plot? If they didn't seek to kill him. what then?Would he have told his disciples to tie him up and offer him for a sacrifice to God?
He laid down His life or none could have taken it. The rest of your statement is meaningless meant only to elicit an emotional response.
Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ July 26 2009,17:01) He laid down His life or none could have taken it. The rest of your statement is meaningless meant only to elicit an emotional response. Wm
Did Jesus pray to God to not allow his murder to happen?If God is sacrificing his son and his son is happy to die for your sins why pray for help?
Still you never told me who was God trying to please by sacrificing someone miraculously made.
Did God have to sacrifice Jesus although he hates child sacrifice and called it an abomination.
Although he told Abraham not to hurt his own son?
Do you think God wanted us to learn that he loved us so much that he killed a completely innocent person in-fact his Own Son.
If some people you knew stole something from the store and the police came would it be honorable for you tell the police to take your son instead?
Do you really accept that God participated in Child Sacrifice like the false gods did all the time?
The Fact is God Saved Jesus from murder and death just like He saved Jonah who for 3 days and 3 nights was ALIVE in the belly of a fish
Hi BD,
God killed nobody.The rulers of the age engineered his death through their human vassals.[1Cor 2,acts2]
bodhitharta,July wrote:Quote
Did Jesus pray to God to not allow his murder to happen?
No He prayed “Your will not mine”Quote
If God is sacrificing his son and his son is happy to die for your sins why pray for help?
I fail to see the connectionQuote
Still you never told me who was God trying to please by sacrificing someone miraculously made.
Yes I did see above postsQuote
Did God have to sacrifice Jesus although he hates child sacrifice and called it an abomination.Although he told Abraham not to hurt his own son?
To sacrifice a child for personal gain is an abomination, to allow your consenting adult Son to offer himself up as a means to save all of mankind is quite another matterQuote
Do you think God wanted us to learn that he loved us so much that he killed a completely innocent person in-fact his Own Son.If some people you knew stole something from the store and the police came would it be honorable for you tell the police to take your son instead?
Do you really accept that God participated in Child Sacrifice like the false gods did all the time?
The Fact is God Saved Jesus from murder and death just like He saved Jonah who for 3 days and 3 nights was ALIVE in the belly of a fish
So your saying that Jesus did not die? And your basing it on Jonah? Personally I believe that Jonah died“When my life was ebbing away, I remembered you, LORD, and my prayer rose to you, to your holy temple”.
God Delivered him
“And the LORD commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.”
Then God resurrected him“To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever. But you brought my life up from the pit, O LORD my God.”
Of course based on your “fact” that Jesus didn't die, then obviously all of scripture is meaningless, which is probably what you want anyway.
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
I have chosen in whom I believe and I believe that scripture reveals His character and as a whole is reliable as a path to salvation. Your free to believe whatever you desire but there may be consequences. No I don't believe I have all truth and some of what I believe may be false but I shall continue searching and to live by the “truths” I have as to do different would find me guilty of violating my conscience and that is a sin also.
I pray you find truth – Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ July 27 2009,03:20) bodhitharta,July wrote:Quote
Did Jesus pray to God to not allow his murder to happen?
No He prayed “Your will not mine”Quote
If God is sacrificing his son and his son is happy to die for your sins why pray for help?
I fail to see the connectionQuote
Still you never told me who was God trying to please by sacrificing someone miraculously made.
Yes I did see above postsQuote
Did God have to sacrifice Jesus although he hates child sacrifice and called it an abomination.Although he told Abraham not to hurt his own son?
To sacrifice a child for personal gain is an abomination, to allow your consenting adult Son to offer himself up as a means to save all of mankind is quite another matterQuote
Do you think God wanted us to learn that he loved us so much that he killed a completely innocent person in-fact his Own Son.If some people you knew stole something from the store and the police came would it be honorable for you tell the police to take your son instead?
Do you really accept that God participated in Child Sacrifice like the false gods did all the time?
The Fact is God Saved Jesus from murder and death just like He saved Jonah who for 3 days and 3 nights was ALIVE in the belly of a fish
So your saying that Jesus did not die? And your basing it on Jonah? Personally I believe that Jonah died“When my life was ebbing away, I remembered you, LORD, and my prayer rose to you, to your holy temple”.
God Delivered him
“And the LORD commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.”
Then God resurrected him“To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever. But you brought my life up from the pit, O LORD my God.”
Of course based on your “fact” that Jesus didn't die, then obviously all of scripture is meaningless, which is probably what you want anyway.
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
I have chosen in whom I believe and I believe that scripture reveals His character and as a whole is reliable as a path to salvation. Your free to believe whatever you desire but there may be consequences. No I don't believe I have all truth and some of what I believe may be false but I shall continue searching and to live by the “truths” I have as to do different would find me guilty of violating my conscience and that is a sin also.
I pray you find truth – Wm
Seeking truth,I did not tell you to not believe in Jesus Christ because I believe in Jesus Christ I am simply sharing with you the greatness of God and how he saved his servant/son from death.
You should be happy that God saved Jesus it doesn't effect your salvation in the least. “For whosoever should believe in him shall not perish”
When I first realized what God had done I jumped for joy because I always knew that God was Almighty and His arms were not too short to save.
God doesn't need sacrifice HE OWNS EVERYTHING, what can we give to him that He might need?
Quote God doesn't need sacrifice HE OWNS EVERYTHING, what can we give to him that He might need? Our Obedience Obedience is better then sacrifice. But we find ourselves incapable of not messing this up (at least I do)
Our trust in Him as a child.
A relationship with us… He desires that no man perish, and although we are nothing compared to Him He has chose us and while yet sinners He made a way for us to be reconciled. If not for the love of God where would we be?
I believe that is why God's directive (9 times in the new testament) is to love our neighbor as ourselves, we cannot love as much as God.
My opinion – Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ July 28 2009,02:28) Quote God doesn't need sacrifice HE OWNS EVERYTHING, what can we give to him that He might need? Our Obedience Obedience is better then sacrifice. But we find ourselves incapable of not messing this up (at least I do)
Our trust in Him as a child.
A relationship with us… He desires that no man perish, and although we are nothing compared to Him He has chose us and while yet sinners He made a way for us to be reconciled. If not for the love of God where would we be?
I believe that is why God's directive (9 times in the new testament) is to love our neighbor as ourselves, we cannot love as much as God.
My opinion – Wm
Your post was quite excellent and yes God does love us and He is the scceptor of repentance.I agree with 99% of everything you said but I am saying that God loves us so much that all he has to do is simply accept us when we turn away from evil and live with Faith in Him
God simply does not need to sacrfice anything we he owns everything. If we say that Jesus died for the sins of the world and yet sin still remains what was the point?
God is greater than man and His ways are Higher than ours truly God is The Almighty and All Merciful.
He is The Most Merciful, The Most Compassionate.
Are you really telling me that you believe that if Jesus did not die for you that God would simply punish you no matter how much faith you have in God and no matter if you have turned away from evil and embraced God totally?
You really believe that God would send you to hell because he would have no way to save you?
Quote Your post was quite excellent and yes God does love us and He is the scceptor of repentance. I agree with 99% of everything you said but I am saying that God loves us so much that all he has to do is simply accept us when we turn away from evil and live with Faith in Him
God simply does not need to sacrifice anything we he owns everything. If we say that Jesus died for the sins of the world and yet sin still remains what was the point?
I believe what we fail to consider with this line of reasoning is the spiritual (unseen to us) part of the equation.
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.By embracing what Jesus did it it changes our nature, our desires are no longer for our own pleasure but for that of the Father's yet while the spirit is willing the flesh is weak. Looking at the outside some may say I live a good life but I know my inner desires and thoughts and though I do not manifest them I confess with Paul what a wretched man I am. Yes there is still sin in the world and there will be even through the 1000 year reign of Jesus.
Quote
God is greater than man and His ways are Higher than ours truly God is The Almighty and All Merciful.He is The Most Merciful, The Most Compassionate.
Are you really telling me that you believe that if Jesus did not die for you that God would simply punish you no matter how much faith you have in God and no matter if you have turned away from evil and embraced God totally?
You really believe that God would send you to hell because he would have no way to save you?
No, your not understanding what I'm saying. God could not intervene after giving man dominion, hence much evil has been done by some individuals and they have prospered, some being good have suffered. God being just has set a time to balance the books so to speak. I do not believe that man is eternal but God will resurrect all the dead for judgement, for the evil it will be a punishment in measure to their individual sins then they perish for all of eternity, for the good it will be entrance into the Kingdom.
The destination of the sheep and goats is determined by their treatment of their neighbors with no mention of repentance or belief in Jesus. When we love, what God loves, we are never too far from the truth.
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.
I quoted Young's Literal Translation because I believe most translations mis-translate Aion as eternal but it actually gets its duration from the item it is coupled with, for God, it's eternal, with punishment – it is to completion.
Yes God's way are higher than ours, but if God was to simply overlook our sins with no cost or requirements then there would be no justice and God would be a participant and would fail to be a truly Holy God.
So I hope I've answered your questions with what I believe to be truth based on over 30 years of searching for it, Doesn't mean I'm right but as the saying goes “opinions are like a*holes everyone has one” followed by “without data your just another a*hole with an opinion” (crude but accurate) I have chosen the scriptures as my source of data while you find yours elsewhere so I doubt we will ever better the 99%.
My Opinion – Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ July 28 2009,15:38) Quote Your post was quite excellent and yes God does love us and He is the scceptor of repentance. I agree with 99% of everything you said but I am saying that God loves us so much that all he has to do is simply accept us when we turn away from evil and live with Faith in Him
God simply does not need to sacrifice anything we he owns everything. If we say that Jesus died for the sins of the world and yet sin still remains what was the point?
I believe what we fail to consider with this line of reasoning is the spiritual (unseen to us) part of the equation.
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.By embracing what Jesus did it it changes our nature, our desires are no longer for our own pleasure but for that of the Father's yet while the spirit is willing the flesh is weak. Looking at the outside some may say I live a good life but I know my inner desires and thoughts and though I do not manifest them I confess with Paul what a wretched man I am. Yes there is still sin in the world and there will be even through the 1000 year reign of Jesus.
Quote
God is greater than man and His ways are Higher than ours truly God is The Almighty and All Merciful.He is The Most Merciful, The Most Compassionate.
Are you really telling me that you believe that if Jesus did not die for you that God would simply punish you no matter how much faith you have in God and no matter if you have turned away from evil and embraced God totally?
You really believe that God would send you to hell because he would have no way to save you?
No, your not understanding what I'm saying. God could not intervene after giving man dominion, hence much evil has been done by some individuals and they have prospered, some being good have suffered. God being just has set a time to balance the books so to speak. I do not believe that man is eternal but God will resurrect all the dead for judgement, for the evil it will be a punishment in measure to their individual sins then they perish for all of eternity, for the good it will be entrance into the Kingdom.
The destination of the sheep and goats is determined by their treatment of their neighbors with no mention of repentance or belief in Jesus. When we love, what God loves, we are never too far from the truth.
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.
I quoted Young's Literal Translation because I believe most translations mis-translate Aion as eternal but it actually gets its duration from the item it is coupled with, for God, it's eternal, with punishment – it is to completion.
Yes God's way are higher than ours, but if God was to simply overlook our sins with no cost or requirements then there would be no justice and God would be a participant and would fail to be a truly Holy God.
So I hope I've answered your questions with what I believe to be truth based on over 30 years of searching for it, Doesn't mean I'm right but as the saying goes “opinions are like a*holes everyone has one” followed by “without data your just another a*hole with an opinion” (crude but accurate) I have chosen the scriptures as my source of data while you find yours elsewhere so I doubt we will ever better the 99%.
My Opinion – Wm
99% is actually very good as the scripture says we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling if that is the case then crucifixion in and of itself is not what saves if it must still be worked out.God says strictly that Love covers over many sins
Luke 7:46-48 (King James Version)
46My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
Proverbs 10:11-13 (King James Version)
12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 28 2009,15:58) Hi BD,
It is not for man to seek his own terms for conciliation with God.
It comes from scripturebodhitharta,
You'll get no argument from me on the virtues of love, I'm a big proponent.But as to “working out your own salvation” one translation puts it “carry out to the goal” I believe this scripture does not mean method of salvation but the application of the salvation to our actions. Funny you should quote this scripture as just 3 verses earlier it says “And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross! hard to use one without accepting the other.
My opinion – Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ July 27 2009,23:38) Quote Your post was quite excellent and yes God does love us and He is the scceptor of repentance. I agree with 99% of everything you said but I am saying that God loves us so much that all he has to do is simply accept us when we turn away from evil and live with Faith in Him
God simply does not need to sacrifice anything we he owns everything. If we say that Jesus died for the sins of the world and yet sin still remains what was the point?
I believe what we fail to consider with this line of reasoning is the spiritual (unseen to us) part of the equation.
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.By embracing what Jesus did it it changes our nature, our desires are no longer for our own pleasure but for that of the Father's yet while the spirit is willing the flesh is weak. Looking at the outside some may say I live a good life but I know my inner desires and thoughts and though I do not manifest them I confess with Paul what a wretched man I am. Yes there is still sin in the world and there will be even through the 1000 year reign of Jesus.
Quote
God is greater than man and His ways are Higher than ours truly God is The Almighty and All Merciful.He is The Most Merciful, The Most Compassionate.
Are you really telling me that you believe that if Jesus did not die for you that God would simply punish you no matter how much faith you have in God and no matter if you have turned away from evil and embraced God totally?
You really believe that God would send you to hell because he would have no way to save you?
No, your not understanding what I'm saying. God could not intervene after giving man dominion, hence much evil has been done by some individuals and they have prospered, some being good have suffered. God being just has set a time to balance the books so to speak. I do not believe that man is eternal but God will resurrect all the dead for judgement, for the evil it will be a punishment in measure to their individual sins then they perish for all of eternity, for the good it will be entrance into the Kingdom.
The destination of the sheep and goats is determined by their treatment of their neighbors with no mention of repentance or belief in Jesus. When we love, what God loves, we are never too far from the truth.
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.
I quoted Young's Literal Translation because I believe most translations mis-translate Aion as eternal but it actually gets its duration from the item it is coupled with, for God, it's eternal, with punishment – it is to completion.
Yes God's way are higher than ours, but if God was to simply overlook our sins with no cost or requirements then there would be no justice and God would be a participant and would fail to be a truly Holy God.
So I hope I've answered your questions with what I believe to be truth based on over 30 years of searching for it, Doesn't mean I'm right but as the saying goes “opinions are like a*holes everyone has one” followed by “without data your just another a*hole with an opinion” (crude but accurate) I have chosen the scriptures as my source of data while you find yours elsewhere so I doubt we will ever better the 99%.
My Opinion – Wm
Hi SeekingVery good post!
WJ
Quote (seekingtruth @ July 28 2009,16:24) bodhitharta,
You'll get no argument from me on the virtues of love, I'm a big proponent.But as to “working out your own salvation” one translation puts it “carry out to the goal” I believe this scripture does not mean method of salvation but the application of the salvation to our actions. Funny you should quote this scripture as just 3 verses earlier it says “And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross! hard to use one without accepting the other.
My opinion – Wm
Actually, that was my point. The scripture just right before saying to work out your salvation with fear and trembling talks about Jesus in such a way where it seems you would not have to work out your salvation with fear and trembling having already accepting Jesus as Lord but right after it says work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.Even if it says “carry out to the goal” what goal would that be after accepting Jesus Christ as Lord?
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