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I thanked wondering for pointing out the difference between “Arian” and “Unitarian” – but it sounds like he’s got you guys a bit on edge..!
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The Godhead is all through Scripture – maybe when you finally get round to giving us the correct translation of John 1:1, (what EXACTLY you think it says), we can look at some of these other verses.. 🙂So you deny the rest of what Wondering said then?
And as for getting us on edge, not at all.
Scripture is my witness and the opinions of men or women that contradict scripture does not worry me at all. Why should it? That is the truth.T8, No.. you do not agree with me.
You believe that Jesus is a god, a second pre-existent god, among many gods, and the Holy Spirit is……?……. you never mention the Holy Spirit, that I have seen, neither does Mike. So I assume you see ‘that’ as the JWs do too.I believe that Jesus was a man, and did not pre-exist. However…. I believe that in him and speaking through him was the Holy Spirit, which is the very spirit of God, therefore, God.
So to me, as it says in Hebrews… There is God, there is the Holy Spirit, and there is the son of man (Christ) and the three were as one. So I believe in a trinity, but a different trinity. It was taught by Hermas In the early church, and I think maybe Lactanius. Some say it is the earliest known christianity, and today, though Trinitarians may be initially shocked to hear one claim Jesus was a man, they most often, after listening, see it. It is closer to Trinitarianism than Arian, due to the belief in one God, not multiple gods, and also the three being as one.
Jesus spoke what the Father in him taught him to say, and the Father was also in Heaven.
Jesus said he would pray the Father, and the Father would send the comforter, the Holy Spirit. Jesus then went onto say »I« will not leave you comfortless. »I« will come to you. (Jesus just got done saying that the Holy Spirit would come, then he said he would come). This is because the Holy Spirit was speaking the second time, the son of man the first..
Which is why Jesus said he who says a word against the son of man can be forgiven but he who speaks a word against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this world or in the one to come.Apart from casual conversation though, I do not teach this, because I have a lot to learn.
T8 said
Quote “Yes I have heard many sermons on the Trinity. And not once have I felt God Spirit witness it as truth.”T8, I did not ask if you had heard sermons (specifically) on the Trinity, but if you had heard sermons SPOKEN by Trinitarians, and felt the power in them. (such as sermons on Heaven, or eschatology, or on Jesus, etc).
Or, do you just read?
You are off base with regards to what I believe and teach.
I believe that Jesus existed in the FORM of God, emptied himself, partook of flesh, obeyed God, died for our sins, rose from the dead bodily, and then we taken up to God to be at his right-hand side in the glory that he had with him, before the world began.
In addition, it is not even a matter of believing that angels, the council of God including men, and even Jesus can be called theos in a qualitative way. I say it is not a matter of belief in that it is plainly visible for all to see this in scripture. Its really just a matter of accepting that which is written or not accepting it.
Nowhere do I teach that Jesus is a god. And for the record, I do not teach that any one angel is a god either. But I acknowledge the reality that scripture uses elohim and theos to describe the council of God, angels, and even Jesus sometimes.Oh I get it now.
This should answer your question sufficiently. I use to be a Trinitarian because that is what I was taught. Although, to be honest I never really checked it out, tried to understand it, or taught it, but I do remember defending it at least once. So it is debatable if I ever really believed it at all. More of an acceptance because I was taught that it was what divided a cult from the truth. Back then if someone asked me if God was a Trinity I would have said yes because I thought that was the right answer.
During that time, God gave me a vision of Heaven and Hell and answered much prayer and I witnessed true miracles in my life. Since then however, I have grown up and changed my diet of milk and artificial milk for meat. I dare not say that I am 100% correct today and without error, but that I am growing and still learning and have discarded this teaching and tradition for good reason.
My testimony of Paradise is here in case you are curious.T8,
Thank you, but you are still not answering my question.
It is as if to you, everything has become “Trinity v Arianism”?Perhaps I am not being clear enough.
I can listen to sermons (some, not all) by Trinitarians and feel the spirit in what they say.
Lately, I have been listening to Paul Washer, for an example:
http://www.youtube.com/v/MlC83WGNjAI
Would you say that you do not feel the spirit in the message, because he is a Trinitarian?
Yes sometimes I hear speakers who say things with anointing and then in the same breath will mention the Trinity. But man is able to speak under inspiration of God one minute and then speak of his own spirit the next.
BTW, I thought using myself as an example would have answered this. Clearly, I have seen the anointing of God in my own life when I believed in the Trinity. That I cannot deny. So the answer would be that of course this would be true of others.
But God does want us to leave behind some things and move onto more things of him. We should be moving in a forward direction, not a backward one and neither just sitting there doing nothing.T8, Yes, I believe your vision completely…
So, you were Trinitarian when you had your vision.
I was ‘I don’t know what’ when I experienced similar – Just a person drawn to God and scripture.A question i have is : Do Arians have visions and dreams? I don’t know… I’m asking because JWs don’t believe in them (You were not Arian when you had your vision).
I accepted anything (regarding Christology). I believed each person was on their own journey, and if they believed in Jesus and the Father, that was all that mattered.
I remember reading a book back then called “Christ Anarchy”, i think it was. The author said Jesus was God, and how much like us God was – and I was completely amazed to think about it. I saw God in that way I guess. God was love, and God understood.
When the JWs sat at table with books, my mind went blank. This always happened when I read their books. I believe God closed my mind.
I can’t remember when I become Arian. I think I followed somebody.
I soon become unsettled, because something was wrong to me with the fruit witnessed in Arianism, and also Trinitarianism – at least on forums. I can discern a lot, despite how things might appear. I found Unitarians had good fruit, even though I could not accept their beliefs really.
So one day, I prayed and asked who Jesus was. I heard.. “The Holy Spirit”.
Most people told me that can’t be.
So, I left it.To make a long story short, as an Arian, I could not get John 1:1 out of my head. I again asked God for his truth. I came to believe in what is called “spirit christology”. It is not considered a heresy – more something others are seeing also (if you google it).. But I only have pieces of the picture.
I don’t preach it, and try to keep it to myself now.
I can accept Trinitarians, so long as they are true, and believe in obedience to God.
Arianism though upsets me for some reason now. I used to like talking to JWs but lately, I’m not answering my door.
My “teacher” was an Arian/unitarian.
I’d like to talk to him again.I don’t think discussion forums are good though.
Truth seeking is personal : Between one and God, and maybe one or two very close people, I think.
If our lives dwell around Christology.. And trying to get followers to a doctrine… I think we have somehow lost touch, and something is not right.That’s just my opinion.
Have a good night!
wrong again sorry – Jesus was made both Lord and Christ by God..!!
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The problem resides in your logical understanding, that somehow convinces you that this verse (and the 100 others) somehow relates to and denies the oneness of the Lord Jesus with God (the Father with the Son) – when it doesn’t..
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In trying to make sense of God you look to the teachings of Carnal men, instead of listening to the Spirit.. and thus you go astray in your thinking..and start believing that Scriptures relating to the Godhead must be corrupted – when they aren’t.
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If you would lay aside the teachings of men and come back to the purity of Scripture..you will simply enable the Holy Spirit to enlighten your understanding..and bring revelation.A skilled lawyer is one that can acquit the defendant regardless of whether he’s guilty or not…he has no intention of establishing the facts, only in winning the case..
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I wonder if you people who attack the Trinity are more interested in winning arguments, than establishing truth .. ?
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Yet unlike lawyers, we who love the truth must be willing to yield if we find ourselves wrong in our understanding of the truth..!!
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I’m not sure what the problem is with believing that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are one with God the Father – for us it is a belief that has come straight from the Scriptures themselves, as revealed by the Spirit..and it’s plain to see that (contrary to other ideas) belief in the Trinity elevates Jesus to the rightful position to which He belongs – right up there next to the Father Himself in the highest position of glory..!!!
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And isn’t this exactly what Jesus Himself prayed…”Now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with that glory I had with You before the world existed.”
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Mike, in defense of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Bible (and I guess, their cult religion also) says he has, ..challenged anyone and everyone to show him one scripture where the NWT has totally dropped the ball, and translated in a way that the Hebrew or Greek words can’t possibly be translated.. ??
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So…is Mike saying now that he accepts their version as being accurate..!!??
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Are you ‘putting your money where your mouth is’ and saying, “..the word was a god” ????I wonder if you people who attack the Trinity are more interested in winning arguments, than establishing truth .. ?
Definately establishing truth. What advantage is there for me to win an argument based on a false premise? It would harm me or hinder me not help me. For me, it is about defending the truth because the truth is greater than myself. And if every man has to be liar, and the whole world wrong, then so be it. Thankfully it is not like that. There are plenty of people who love the truth and learn from it everyday.
But I would like to turn the question to you. Are you interested in truth or winning. Because I can answer all the questions and scriptures you give as so-called proof, yet you ignore most of the scriptures I give you. Yet still argue so as to win.Are you ‘putting your money where your mouth is’ and saying, “..the word was a god” ????
I have said it before, but here it is again. There is no article in the Greek in John 1:1c. Neither definite or indefinite. Greek has no indefinite. So I do not add one. I read John 1:1c as qualitative. Even Trinitarian scholars admit that much is true.
Your argument is not with me but Peter. And it is he you call a carnal man. I merely repeat Peter, so don’t shoot me, shoot him.
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”If you would lay aside the teachings of men and come back to the purity of Scripture..you will simply enable the Holy Spirit to enlighten your understanding..and bring revelation.
What you are really saying is the exact opposite.
You really want me to lay aside hundreds of verses in scripture, and embrace a doctrine created by man three hundred or so years after Christ died and rose again.
Which is man-made? The Trinity or scripture. I choose scripture and you choose the Trinity. That much is plain for all to see.It is not about what MAN says he is but what GOD says he is..
It’s not what T8 reveals, it’s not what Mike reveals, it’s not what Sir Isaac Newton reveals or the Watchtower, but what GOD reveals to each individual person if they are willing enough to put aside their own opinions and knowledge.
Put away your Books!That is right Wondering. It is not about t8, Athanasius, or Arius. It is really about God and his son whom he sent.
“Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.”
If Jesus is the truth, then his words are true. I believe him when he said that, do you oppose this?
I read that quote from Jesus in a book called the Bible and I am not about to put that away.Plenty oppose that. I get opposed for saying that Jesus is the son of the only true God who is the Father. In truth, I am quoting Jesus, but I get opposed and told I read too many books or other red herrings. But the truth is simple. The Father is the one true God. He sent his son who is the one who God made Lord and Christ. So for me, there is one God the Father, and my confession concurs with Jesus, Peter, and Paul.
Just pure scripture and yet plenty of Christians oppose it because it actually contradicts their extra-biblical doctrine of the Trinity.
For me, this is really about scripture verses doctrines that came later on. And for me, scripture wins out.
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