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You claim to teach what is clearly shown in Scripture…but really what you teach is not Scriptural at all..!
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Your ‘understanding’ of what the Scriptures mean comes from ‘outside’ the Scriptures themselves..so what you actually end up doing is ‘using’ Scripture to deny what the Scriptures say..!!
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You know…it wasn’t long after Peter had his great revelation of Christ, that Jesus actually rebuked him, saying, “Get behind Me Satan! You are an offense to Me, because you are not thinking God’s thoughts but human thoughts!” (Matthew 16:23)
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When we start trying to work things out ourselves we get into trouble and end up becoming an offense to Jesus, and a hindrance to those who are seeking the truth – serving the purposes of Satan rather than doing the will of God..Scripture is not darkness. His Word is a light unto our feet…
So – open up your heart and let the SON-shine in…!
🙂It was just a passing observation…If God is Trinity (and He is), then you’d think there might be some indication of this three-in-one nature in man…(seeing we were created in His image)..
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But you say that this idea has no merit on the grounds that..each component – body, soul, spirit – must be an actual PERSON with his own mind, will, thoughts, etc… and Because Jesus had a DIFFERENT will than God’s, and chose to do God’s will instead of his own..this made them two different persons…and so this comparison falls flat..!!
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yet Scripture clearly points to man having a fleshly will of his own that wars against his true spiritual desire..Paul says, “For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.” Something I’m sure we can all acknowledge because it is borne out in our own experience..and this fits well with Jesus laying down His own will for the Father’s – our fleshly life crucified that Christ may rule in our spirit.You said:
It was just a passing observation…If God is Trinity (and He is), then you’d think there might be some indication of this three-in-one nature in man…(seeing we were created in His image)..
and He is part should read and THEY are.
Three persons are not HE/HIM. If there were three in your family, would anyone call your family HE?
He is for one person
They is for multiple persons.
The Trinity Teaches that there are 3 persons that are God. Each is a HE, collectively they are THEY.Absolutely. Jesus is the son of God. Agreed. There is the son and there is God. The Father is God. Jesus is the son. This is light.
You said:
“You claim to teach what is clearly shown in Scripture…but really what you teach is not Scriptural at all..!”
I say, excuse me. I don’t need the aid of a third-fourth century creed and doctrine. I just need scripture.
John 20:17
Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,
`I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.Its not complicated, rather a simple lesson in Greek and you have it.
When Jesus said that Judas was a devil, do you actually think he was saying that he was a literal devil spirit that can possess people?
If you understand that there is one who is THE Devil, and yet there are many so-called devils, then there is no need to be confused because the concept is already understood by you. Jesus did not call Judas THE devil did he. He said, devil.
It is not hard, it is just Greek.
Theos like Devil can refer to the person who is the primary Theos or primary Devil by using the definite article. When it is not used, it can take on its qualitative meaning.
And even if this Greek concept is too much for you to comprehend, then I remind you that English teaches you the same thing.
If I said to you, “you are an angel”, would you think you were a literal angel? And if I said to you, “You are THE angel”, would you not be confused because of my use of the definite article implying you were a definite angel?Way off David.
I deny that he is God and say that he is Lord. I exclaim that the Father is the one true God.
But I do teach that he existed in the form of God thus if you want to say that he had divine nature then I do not disagree. Because he was born of God, then he came from God and possess that which is of God. Whereas created things are derivations, Christ is the only begotten of God full of grace and truth.
But when you say that he is the actual God himself, then you deny half the NT. Jesus is the IMAGE of the invisible God. It is the Father who is invisible. Who do you know has seen the Father?
Again, if you could understand the difference between identity and nature, then this is all wrapped up. All Trinitarians do not understand the difference. I suspect that because they are stubborn and refuse to accept the scriptures when shown them, that God hands them over to that which they are striving for. It reminds me of Evolutionists. You can demonstrate to them clearly that order and code are the product of a mind and not randomness, but because they refuse the truth, they are handed over to delusions and that which they are striving for.Way off David.
I deny that he is God and say that he is Lord. I exclaim that the Father is the one true God.
But I do teach that he existed in the form of God thus if you want to say that he had divine nature then I do not disagree. Because he was born of God, then he came from God and possess that which is of God. Whereas created things are derivations, Christ is the only begotten of God full of grace and truth.
But when you say that he is the actual God himself, then you deny half the NT. Jesus is the IMAGE of the invisible God. It is the Father who is invisible. Who do you know has seen the Father?
Again, if you could understand the difference between identity and nature, then this is all wrapped up. All Trinitarians do not understand the difference. I suspect that because they are stubborn and refuse to accept the scriptures when shown them, that God hands them over to that which they are striving for. It reminds me of Evolutionists. You can demonstrate to them clearly that order and code are the product of a mind and not randomness, but because they refuse the truth, they are handed over to delusions and that which they are striving for.Well this is exactly the problem you have when you get all tied up in logic…and forget that the LORD our God is ONE…!!!
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I guess this is your best response when I refute your friend’s argument – and say that man is triune because he is created in the image of a Triune GOD…Yes, your understanding of the Trinity comes from outside the Scriptures – hence you selectively use Scriptures to deny the truth of Scripture..!
You are using human reasoning here.
A body is flesh, and the spirit is spirit.
And we are the soul that can be led and dwelt by God’s Spirit or another spirit for that matter. We can also receive a new body too, thus we are not the body or the spirit, but the soul. But how exactly does this have bearing on the makeup of God. Even your Trinity is three separate persons and Jesus said he had a soul and we know he has a body, while God is a/the Spirit. A body soul and spirit of a man does not equal three persons in a godhead especially when one of the persons within your person collection has his own body and soul.
Your only connection here is the number three DavidL. With respect, I think you are out of your depth here in discussing this. I mean this is bordering on funny. If the number three was powerful enough to prove a doctrine, then you could prove anything you wanted. God’s favourite time is 3 o’clock for example. Or families of 3 members are more in the image of God than other families.
Before the Trinity was formulated, there was the Binity. The Holy Spirit was added to the Binity as an extra member some 60 or so years later. A Binitarian could use Adam and Eve being one flesh as an example of the biune nature of God and now we have a contradiction. Is God two members or three. Of course he is one.
About six months ago, we had a person in the Forums who was teaching that God was made up of 4 or 5. I can’t quite remember which number now. But his argument for it was actually better than your one as to why God is three. And it was funny because we had a Binitarian, Trinitarians, and a Quinitarian. I think was looking for a Quadratarian so that they could all have a debate. Can you not see how ridiculous everything becomes when man tampers with scripture and applies his own hypothesis to it. Worse than that is the unnecessary division that is caused.
I am going to stick to the LORD our God being one God as Jesus said. Not a triune one as you say. That is the wise thing to do. Keep it simple because the truth is simple. Simplicity in Christ means we can all understand, and this is not just metaphysical scholars with honours in Ontology. NO even children are able to grasp that there is one God the Father. Amen!lol. You made me laugh right there.
My understanding of the extra-biblical Trinity is certainly not biblical because the Trinity is not in the Bible DavidL.
For us there is one God the Father. For you there is one God the Trinity. I can’t find the latter in the Bible. Please point me to where it says that God is a Trinity please. Thought you couldn’t. Extra-biblical fullstop. Tradition…Scripture declares the Son to be ONE with the Father…and the very reason why it is not wrong to worship Jesus as God – (if you have the Son you have the Father)..
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you confuse things by saying the Son IS the Father..!! I have never said that, nor do I know anyone that believes that..
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All understanding of the Trinity (that I am aware of) acknowledges the Father and the Son…so, for someone like you who must know the doctrine, this can only be seen as either the fruit of your own logical and extra-Biblical endeavors..or a deliberate and deceptive argument designed to make others confused about the Trinity..!!Scripture declares that we can be one with them too. So that negates your point.
Also, Jesus is the son of God. I am not saying you are confusing Jesus with the Father, rather you are confusing him for God. He is the son of God instead.
As for the Trinity Doctrine, no one fully understands it because it is not true and illogical to boot. Jesus is not the son of himself. Yet he is the son of God.
The answer is really simple. The doctrine is wrong. It is simply a failed hypothesis formulated back in the fourth century.You say that us being one with God is the same as Jesus being one with the Father..but if what you say negates my point, then why is it wrong to worship men and angels, yet it is not wrong to worship Jesus..!?
“And they worshipped him saying, “surely he is the son of God”. (something like that).
“And they worshipped God and the Lamb.” (Something like that).
Jesus is worshipped as the son of God and the Lamb of God.
David was worshipped as the King of Israel.
The Father is worshipped as God.
It is not wrong to worship (full stop) because it also means honour or to be prostrate unto. And let’s face it, we honour others for different reasons and because of who they are. People often bow (remain prostrate) before kings for example.
But it is wrong to worship anyone (including angels) as God or as something greater than what they are. The Father is worshipped as God, whereas Jesus is honoured and/or worshipped as the Lamb and also as the son of God. We see clear examples of this in scripture.of course, it’s simple…but you keep denying it – “the Word was God.” John declares that when we read the very first verse of the Bible…”in the beginning *GOD*”.. we see the Father and the Son together as *GOD* (and the Spirit of God is present in creation in the nest verse)..
DavidL. Not many should be teachers because they receive a greater judgement. Clearly you are not equipped to teach and rightly divide the Word of God. Your strategy is to take one scripture, and nullify the rest. Further, when other relevant points are shown you, such as “ye are theos” and “ye are elohim, ye are all sons of the Most High God” or “worship elohim all ye elohim”, your strategy is to close your eyes to these scriptures because they infringe on your own understanding of of the use of the word ‘theos’.
My advice to you is if you want to run the race and receive one-hundred fold reward for your works, then drop the teaching ministry you think you have. Clearly you do not rightly divide the Word of God and you ignore so many scriptures that I don’t even have the number of how many you ignore, I only know it is in the hundreds. Maybe you were meant to be an Evangelist or something else. Please pray about where God wants you. This is wise advice. Do not despise it.
If you want to negate much of scripture to support a pet doctrine of yours, then is that not exactly what the Dark Ages were about. In that time, it was pet doctrines and denial of scripture that led men to be superstitious and to murder in the name of Christ thinking they were doing God a favour. Millions were murdered by the institution that is built on the Trinity Doctrine. Do not partake of her sins, rather come out of her. The truth will set you free.
You say that Jesus is God because the Word was THE God”. That is your interpretation of John 1:1c from a Greek perspective because you capitalise God, in Greek that is the same as putting in ‘THE’ before the word. Yet you ignore that there are three ways you can read this and only one possibibly two do not contradict scripture. But your option does indeed contradict many scriptures, even John 1:1 a-b, as well as John’s own conclusion as to why he wrote the Book of John, which was believe it or not, to prove that Jesus is the son of God and the messiah and not to prove your hypothesis that Jesus is God himself. No, Jesus is God’s son. This is an important pillar of the faith and the Church is built on this truth.
By adding in the indefinite article you are even more presumptuous than what you accuse the JWs of being, when they add in the indefinite article. To add in the definite article is indeed more presumptuous because it points to one definition. But the definite article is not there. So you need to study in more depth and even a basic understand Greek and the definite article would help.
If you loose reward for you wayward teachings DavidL, at least you only have yourself to blame. But a wise man takes advice because it is more important to him that he run the race and cast of all that would weigh him down or even disqualify him. He treasures this more than his own pride and reputation.all this discussion could be prevented if only we read the scriptures on it self and blank out all the garbage what does not belong to it ,in that way the trinity is dead for sure ,and your understanding will be only in scriptures ,but you have to make sure that in your mind you do not add or retract words from what is written ,and this is difficult to do ,but can be done ,read it to understand not what you want but what is said or not say in the scriptures ,and also with the true conviction that it his the word of God given to you,if you do not understand all the first time or do not have all the answer from the scriptures ,read it again and again until you have received all your answers ,
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