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Let’s take a look at what different persons or beings believed about who Jesus Christ of Nazareth really was.
The foundation of the Catholic Church (& most Protestant churches)
The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Hence God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. These three persons make up one God. But rather than each being one-third of God, each person is co-equal and co-eternal, and 100% God
Now compare the above to what others in scripture confess about the identity and role of Jesus Christ.
Demons
Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ. (Luke 4:41)
“What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God?
I adjure you by God, don’t torment me.”
For he said to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”
He asked him, “What is your name?”
He said to him, “My name is Legion, for we are many.”Nowhere do demons say Jesus is God. Instead they knew that he was the son of God.
Satan
Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
“If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “`He will command his angels
concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’Nowhere is it written that Satan calls Jesus God. Rather he too knows that Jesus is the son of God.
Roman centurion
“Surely he was the Son of God!” (Matthew 27:54)
Among this centurion, all the other onlookers, those that heard the words of Jesus, and even those that only heard about him, none of them ever said that Jesus was God, Instead they said he was either mad, a false prophet, a true prophet, Elijah, John the Baptist, the messiah, and the son of God. For the centurion to utter these true words, it must have been obvious that Jesus was claiming to be the son of God, to his mind at least.
Peter
“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven”. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, (Matthew 16:17-18)If you were given the opportunity from Jesus to answer the same question from Jesus, “who am I”, would your answer be as Peter or would it instead be “you are God”. If it is the latter, do you not think it at least strange that Peter didn’t take this opportunity to say that Jesus was God like you would? I mean, do you know more than Peter? Surely if the foundation of the Church were really the Trinity, then Peter would have said that Jesus was God and part of the Trinity and then Jesus would have built his Church on that. Instead what we clearly see is that the foundation was built on the fact that Jesus is the son of God and the Christ.
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Peter 1:3)
Peter clearly acknowledges that God is the Heavenly Father and that he is the God of Jesus. This is quite different to the Trinity Doctrine which confesses that Jesus is God and part of a Triune God. Nowhere is it written that Peter said or taught that Jesus Christ is God.
John
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:31)
The Book of John is said to be the book that teaches the Trinity. After all, most consider John 1:1 to be the cornerstone of the Trinity Doctrine. Yet the truth is that the whole point of the Book of John was to believe what John said above, Is it not strange then that men say that John was teaching the Trinity when John himself says that his book was written so that you would believe that Jesus is the son of God and the messiah.
John also wrote in the first verse of the Book of Revelation the following:
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, (Revelation 1:1)
Clearly God and Jesus are different. And John gave a warning about this book.
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. (Revelation 22:18-19)
If you believe that the Book of Revelation teaches Jesus is God or part of the Trinity, then you are clearly adding to these words of this book.
Paul
Paul’s creed is as follows:
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)
Notice that Paul says for US, there is ONE God the Father and ONE Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. So why is it then that many others basically say, for THEM, there is one God the Father, Son, and Spirit. And one Lord, the Lord Father, Lord Son, and Lord Spirit. Surely this is a departure from the truth.
In case you think this is just a difficult translation, Paul basically repeats his creed here:
there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)
and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 1:4)
Where in Paul’s creed is the Trinity? Where in Paul’s creed is Jesus is God. Clearly according to our brother Paul, Jesus is the Lord and the Son. And to show you that Lord is different to God, I present you with the words of Peter:
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:36)
So Paul and Peter demonstrate that Paul was an avid teacher of Jesus being the son of God, the messiah, and the Lord and that it was God who made Jesus Lord. Nowhere does Paul teach that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity.
Gabriel
He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:32-35)
God’s messenger Gabriel, tell us who Jesus is. Nowhere in scripture does Gabriel or any other angel state that Jesus is God or part of the Trinity. He even forecasts that he will be called the Son of the Most High. Who is the Most High then? Certainly not Jesus because he is his son of the Most High.
Jesus
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3)
To those who won’t listen to Peter, John, or Paul, surely they will listen to the words of Jesus? And if anyone knew who Jesus was it would surely be Jesus himself. So what does Jesus say about God and himself? He states that the following truth is eternal life. And what truth is that? Is it the Trinity as many would have you believe? Is it that Jesus is God? No, it is that the Father is the only true God and that the only true God sent Jesus Christ into the world.
Do we believe what Jesus said, or shall we believe the cleverly devised fables of men and doctrines of demons which seems to be the majority’s opinion on this subject.
The Father
“This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him.” (Mark 9:7)
Notice that the highest authority in existence (the Father) did not say that Jesus is God and part of the Trinity. He never even hinted at such an idea. If you or anyone else rejects Peter, John, Paul, and even Jesus words above, then will you listen to the Father?
So what should your confession be?
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.. (1 John 2:22)
Clearly, Jesus is the messiah and the son of God. To believe otherwise is of the antichrist spirit. Replacing this with a doctrine that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity is clearly wrong. Believing this and adding it as a requirement is even worse. Yet many churches have done this very thing by making the Trinity Doctrine the foundation of their church. In scripture we clearly see that the true Church is the Body of Christ and this Church is built on the truth that Jesus is the Christ and the son of God. Not the Trinity as many expect.
Now that we can see from scripture who Jesus really is, what should be our confession right now? It should be that Jesus Christ is Lord.
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue acknowledge
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11)So why not start today. Instead of confessing that Jesus Christ is God, why not confess the truth instead, that Jesus Christ is Lord, the son of God, and the messiah. If you truly believe that, then you believe correctly regarding who Jesus is and this is important because it is the Father who has revealed the son to us.
Very good , and so many more scriptures that says the same thing ,why do thy not believe the written words of God
Yes I know ,but I hope,Hi.
God is more than doctrine, if it is simply doctrine, then we have lost the spirit and the love that we once had. The only way to progress forward is to let go of doctrine.
If one believes in trinity, or Arian, or, whatever, so long as it is in their own mind and they do not attempt to teach it to other believers in a “you are wrong and I am right” fashion, then, I don’t believe it matters, because faith is deeper than belief.
Obviously faith and relationship is greater than doctrine, but the doctrine of Christ is also important.
We know that people perish because of the lack of knowledge and Christ built his Church on Peter’s confession. Surely the foundation of the Church is important and scripture is also full of doctrine.“For Priscillian the theological disputations in the church had little value, for he knew the gift of God, and had accepted it by a living faith. He would not dispute the Trinity, being content to know that in Christ the true One God is laid hold of by the help of the Divine Spirit.”
No one here is disputing that we need real faith and relationship in God. That is paramount. This writing is about doctrine which also has its place.
2 John 1:9, “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.”
If doctrine wasn’t important, then we could throw away our bibles.you always seem to miss the point.. doctrines were not the problem for Priscillian – but disputes about them were..!! he was more concerned about the practical aspects of the Three Beings (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), instead of theoretical debates about Them..
As well as doctrine, the Bible gives instruction – and much is written about disputes, and how they should be avoided because of the contentions they produce..
It sounds to me that Priscillian was very wise in this respect..
With respect David.
If I quote a bunch of scriptures that teach that the Father is the only true God and Jesus being the son of the only true God, then when men come to me and say it is wrong because of a creed (outside of scripture) that teaches that God is Triune and made of three persons including the son, then who is arguing against the scripture and causing the dispute?
Why is it that some get agitated when I preach ‘for us there is one God the Father and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ’, instead of the Trinity version that says, ‘there is one God the Father, Son, and Spirit and one Lord, The Lord Father, The Lord Son, and the Lord Spirit’.
Further, in my opinion, when a teacher says that the Trinity is true and/or the foundation of faith, and then say not to argue against it or dispute it, even in the light of scripture, well that should make any genuine person very suspicious.
And if that were not enough, then why is the Trinity associated with bad fruits. i.e., millions of murders of so-called heretics, supported by one of the most evil empires ever known – Rome. And why is this doctrine confusing to all, hence why we always hear things like, “the Trinity is beyond our understanding”, or the Mysterious Trinity. Did you know that Babel means confusion?
The truth is the Mysterious Trinity is just the mystery religion or Mystery Babylon.
I don’t mind saying it as it is David, because scripture does. And certainly I do not want to nor would I like to see anyone else partake in her sins by not coming out of her and even promoting her. For sure, we should want nothing to do with a faith or religion that is guilty of spilling the blood of the saints and murdering our brothers, the martyrs.
So while you may see people like myself as argumentative, with respect, I probably need to remind you that you first attacked what I wrote which was basically scripture after scripture. And if you really believed in your quote above, then why are you the one coming here and disputing what I say?
Think about it. Are you saying that it is okay for you to dispute what I say, but it is not wise for me to teach what I do and to quote the scriptures that I do? If this is the case, then is that not the definition of a double standard? If you believe Priscillian was wise in what he said, then why are you the one coming here and doing the disputing while I am doing the defending? I think that is a fair enough question brother.
If we want 100 fold from the Lord David (which is what I desire), then we at least need to listen to God and his scripture rather than putting the vain creeds and traditions of men first. And surely if we love Jesus who is the truth, then surely as proof of that, we would love truth?
This would be a different story if what was being disputed here was genealogies or something like that. But you are disputing the very foundation or rock that Jesus built his Church on, which is that Jesus is the son of God and the messiah, while the very definition of the Roman Catholic faith, (which is based in Rome of all places), is the Trinity.
I say this out of respect David. I am not attacking you or your faith. I am highlighting scripture that shows us what the foundation of our faith is. If men decide to dispute that, then they are free to do so, but they should expect that I will make an effort to bring this to Jesus Christ and test it with scripture as we are encouraged to do so.
Titus 1:9: He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.Yes – you do indeed quote a bunch of scriptures, but far from presenting a ‘trustworthy message’ you have distorted and twisted the meaning of them to fit your own corrupted logic of God..
AGAIN you mistakenly believe that my opposition to your teaching has something to do with ‘a creed’ (man, you are really locked into your own deception..!!!), and ignore the fact that the Trinity (the Divinity of Jesus Christ the Son of God who indeed is One with God and worthy of all our worship), is a simple revelation of Scripture that truly even a baby can understand.. but YOU cannot receive this cause you are not willing to lay aside all your pre-conceived notions – and so, like the Pharisees of old, you cling to your doctrinal errors in the face of the Truth..
The real problem you should consider is that, while you think you are presenting the truth of the Scriptures to people – if you have got it wrong without realizing it, (and believe me – you HAVE got it wrong..!!) you end up presenting a false doctrine of Jesus that will lead the unsuspecting (and those weak in the faith) astray.. and you will be held accountable for this..
About disputes..you accuse me of first attacking what you wrote, and thus to blame..but really you started this debate on my friends fb page..then offered me your forum site to pursue further, only to discover the completely mistaken nature of your teachings which foolishly attack the very heart of the Christian faith, and even the revelation of the Scriptures themselves..!! – making me think you are a ‘divisive’ person (Titus 3:10) one who, according to 2 Peter 3:16 is untaught and unstable… distorting the Scriptures, to their own destruction..
I can only conclude from your comment above that you are like many who will defend a doctrine even though it is not supported by scripture. Which means putting men’s creeds before that what we call scripture.
Believe me when I say that this is not unusual. The previous religious generation nearly always oppose that which God is doing today. But it usually takes a new generation who have a fresh perspective to see the truth. They do this because they get comfortable with their accepted traditions and forget that being led by the Spirit is a refining process that is not always comfortable.
There was a time that men opposed salvation outside of the Catholic Church with the same passion that you oppose the idea that Jesus is the son of the Father who is the only true God. There was a time when men said it was wrong to speak in tongues and it was of the Devil. Even the prophecies uttered by the prophets of today that you love to read about were also once greatly persecuted and they were all labelled false prophets, and to some degree still are. What one generation persecutes, another will look at it in a light not tainted by tradition. Even in Jesus time we see exactly the same thing. How could this Jesus be right when he preaches against centuries of established doctrine.
And so it is that many people from a younger generation are realising the fallacy of the Trinity today and concluding that the organisations that sit atop her are also not the Church. It is they who will pave the way for more truth and greater understanding of who Jesus is and what the Church is.
My only advice to you now is to let it go because if you are wrong, then this will only hinder you because you are fighting against Christ, and even if you are right, you are not making a good case for your view. If it is of God it will be blessed and if it is not, it will fall by the wayside.
If you do let this go, then I leave you with these parting words. When you read the scripture, read it as a child who is hungry to learn. Don’t read it as a man who already has the full truth and understands that which he reads. Open your mind and let the God of Jesus renew your mind with the word of God. The scriptures are not that complicated. Often they mean what they appear to say, while others require some digging.again..I’m not defending a doctrine..(!!) – to you this might be some Catholic traditional teaching..(and historically you’re probably right), but what you have continually overlooked, denied, ignored..(even though I have taken pains to carefully explain this to you), is that my personal experience and understanding of Jesus-being-God has come to me by way of REVELATION.. which actually is the ONLY way it can TRULY be understood..!!
For you to reach a conclusion that I am somehow defending a ‘doctrine’ unsupported by Scripture, and thus elevating man above the Word of God just highlights again the fact that you continually ignore the things I share..I guess because it doesn’t fit into your own mindset – it’s like you’re just blocking your ears and saying, I’m right, I’m right, I’m right..!! regardless of what anyone else might say..
and so now you conveniently put me into the category of ‘The Religious Generation’ simply because I don’t accept your erroneous conclusions..
You will find that this generation is sick of man-made doctrine… you have not created a solution, but are only magnifying the confusion that already exists about God…if you would listen to your own advice my friend, and go to the Word as a little child, the Spirit will lead you to a straight, and easy to understand, path..
Where there is the light of revelation there is no need for debate..the truth becomes obvious to all (all, that is, who are open to receive)..
Clearly you are defending the Trinity Doctrine, while I am defending the fact that Jesus is the son of the Most High God who is exclusively the Father.
I have many hundreds of scriptures which testify to what I am saying and you have not refuted one of these scriptures. Not even one.
While you have a few scriptures that you think teach that Jesus is God when clearly they do not.
Unless you can bring something new to the table besides repeating the Trinity Doctrine itself, then this is going nowhere for you.
The biggest so-called proof that I even hear from those that preach the Trinity are the Trinity creeds with scripture that could be twisted to agree with these creeds.
So in like fashion, the way you can extract vinegar from a sponge is to first soak the sponge in vinegar, so it is that the way you get the Trinity from the bible is to first soak your understanding in the Trinity. Then when you read, you get a Trinity taste to everything. This is how all false doctrine works. Introduce extra biblical writing of some kind, make it the creed or template, then apply scripture to the template or creed.If you knew your history, you would know that the Trinity Doctrine you support actually developed over a period of hundreds of years. And pre the Trinity is was the Binity and decades after the Binity, the Holy Spirit was aded as the third member.
If you are going to promote a doctrine, especially one that developed hundreds of years after the Bible was written, I would want to see the proof that it was true. So far there is no proof. While I have hundreds of scriptures that enlighten me as to who he is. i.e., the son of God, the messiah, and the one whom God made Lord over all he has, why do I need a creed that was enforced by Rome to tell me who Jesus is. I have access to the scriptures and I am free like anyone to be led by the Spirit of God. I don’t need the Roman Empire’s version of who Jesus is.Tell me something David.
Will I be cast away for believing that Jesus Christ is the son of God, the messiah, and the Lord?
The answer is no. So why are you trying to convert me away from believing these truths? These beliefs are required if one is to have true faith and understanding in who and what Jesus is.
Please do not reply with we have to know Jesus. This is already accepted by both of us as is no good defense as to what you are trying to do. We are talking about what we are to believe about Jesus only.
Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Why are you so desperate then to get me to declare that “Jesus is God” instead?
Does this not at least seem a bit strange to you when you look at it objectively?
This is my confession concerning Jesus…John 20:28 “And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.”
The word theos used here is not ascribed exclusively to the Almighty God.
It is also used of the sons of God, God’s counsel, God’s representatives, magistrates, and judges.
Now ask yourself, is Jesus Almighty God which contradicts Jesus own words or is he the son of God and the exact representation (representative) of God as our brother Paul taught us two millennia ago.
What you are inferring David is this. If Jesus is God, then so are the Pharisees God as well. After all, when Jesus was speaking to them, he said, “ye are theos”.
John 10:34 (English-NIV)
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are theos.
He quoted David when he spoke this:
Psalms 82:6 (English-NIV)
“I said, `You are elohim; you are all sons of the Most High.’
Look up the meaning of ‘theos’ here or a concordance:
Therefore the blanket statement “ye are theos” or “ye are my theos” needs to be balanced with the rest of scripture. If you just cherry pick one meaning out of a few options because it happens to be the one that matches your creed as that is what is commonly called bias. But if we take the option that fits with the rest of scripture, then we are rightly dividing the word of God.
I choose the meaning that is in harmony with my Lord’s words, otherwise I am using the meaning that is against his words.
John 17:3 (English-NIV)
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
I believe Jesus when he spoke this, and it has to be concluded that you do not._______________________________________________________________________I CONFESS WITH MY MOUTH AND BELIEVE IN MY HEART THAT JESUS CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD, IS BOTH MY LORD AND *MY GOD*..!!
_______________________________________________________________________
you may twist the meaning of Scripture (a very self-condemning exercise)…but you can’t change what I mean…!
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My belief is based on what my Bible says…and NOT on what ‘man’ teaches…!!!
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THEREFORE –
Do we put our trust in Scripture or the teachings of man..!!!???I CONFESS WITH MY MOUTH AND BELIEVE IN MY HEART THAT JESUS CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD, IS BOTH MY LORD AND *MY GOD*..!!
_______________________________________________________________________
you may twist the meaning of Scripture (a very self-condemning exercise)…but you can’t change what I mean…!
–
My belief is based on what my Bible says…and NOT on what ‘man’ teaches…!!!
–
THEREFORE –
Do we put our trust in Scripture or the teachings of man..!!!???Okay, let’s say you are right and that we can take every instance of theos to mean the Almighty God. Let’s now apply it here.
John 10:34 (English-NIV)
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are theos.
Explain to me then how the Pharisees are also God.DavidL said: I CONFESS WITH MY MOUTH AND BELIEVE IN MY HEART THAT JESUS CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD, IS BOTH MY LORD AND *MY GOD*..!!
Your quote above and the way you intending for it to be understood, is really saying that Jesus is the son of himself. Whereas if you understand that the Father is the one true God, then Jesus is the son of the Father which is also true and complimentary. So the Father and Almighty God are interchangeable, whereas Almighty God and Son are not.
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