December 13, 2004 at 2:40 am #4895
Quote So do you say these terms are equivalent too, natural life and eternal life?? Quote So it seems that while psuche can mean 'life' it can never mean 'eternal life' as your reference claims. Do you agree?
Revelation 2:7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”‘
Revelation 2:11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”‘
Revelation 3:5 “He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 21:6 I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. (7) “He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. (8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
For there to be a second death, there must be a first.
It is therefore easy to see why the first death is likened to sleep because, although you have died are buried and return to dust, the promise of the resurrection is the continuation of/return to life.
When we are born we are mortal, when we are raised at the resurrection we are raised immortal.
1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Quote Matthew Poole’s Commentary of the Bible
It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption: it is sown, that is, it dieth and is buried in such a state, that it is subject to putrefaction; but when it shall be again raised from the dead, it shall be subject to no putrefaction or corruption: so #1Co 15:52: The dead shall be raised incorruptible.
1 Corinithians 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable.
43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.
Quote John Gill’s Expositor
It is raised a spiritual body; not as to substance, but as to its quality; it will not be changed into a spirit; our Lord’s risen body, to which ours will be conformed, was not a spirit, but, as before, consisted of flesh and bones…
The above Revelation verses show that the second death has no power over those of the first resurrection. Those that overcome will also not take part in the second death. Therefore, those that are not overcomers, will not receive eternal life and will have their part in the second death.
Excluding those of the first resurrection, all will rise at the last resurrection but not all will be given eternal life. Some will be destroyed in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The part of the quote that I believe you are questioning:
Quote The contrast is between one who can take the physical life, and He who can take away eternal life.
Those that are judged to receive the second death have never received eternal life and I understand that this is what the article is referring to. Eternal life is taken away/withheld from them.December 13, 2004 at 3:13 am #4896
The use of the word”overcomers” I would have thought applies to the same group as those in the first resurrection?
All the references to “overcoming” is in relation to the challenges facing the saved. The challenges of the world and evil and the evil one as in Rom12.21,1Jn 2.13 and most of the churches[rev2.17,2.26, 3.5,3.12,3.21.]
To be a member of the church one must have gone through the gate surely?
I look forward to your other answers. Do we know whether or not those in the 2nd resurrction have a new body because if they don't how can that punishment be eternal as in Rev 22?December 13, 2004 at 4:05 am #4897
All these references to LIFE ,as far as I can see, are “Zoe” rather than “Psuche” wherever they occur in the NT.
Book of LIFE
Crown of LIFE
Water of LIFE
Tree of LIFE
Do you see what I am getting at?December 13, 2004 at 5:38 pm #4898
pps and I see you would say that these who die in the second death never have “zoe” anyway.
It still comes back to whether there is a separation between soul and body.
What did Paul mean when he said in Rom 7.24
” Who will set ME free from the BODY of this death?”
and in 2 Cor 5
“I repeat, WE are full of confidence and would much rather be away from this BODY and at home with the Lord”
And a separation between soul and spirit. If you say that the human spirit is the life force that returns to God then how can the 'Psuche' also mean “life” that can be destroyed in gehenna? Do we have two lives?December 13, 2004 at 6:06 pm #4899
You suggested the witch of Endor in 1 Sam 28 raised the soul of Samuel. I do not see it that way. Saul was unable to see what the medium saw. But the being is reported to have spoken to Saul and it does not state it was through the medium though it may have been.
So it was a vision of some kind it would seem. But Saul was of no doubt that she had seen Samuel from her description. That it was Samuel the prophet in some form was proved by the communication reported, as the being prophesied and the prophecy came true. It also says in the Word “Samuel said”
I never said it was a resurrection as that is of the body and done by God as you state.December 13, 2004 at 11:20 pm #4902Adam PastorParticipant
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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2004,18:06) Adam Pastor,
You suggested the witch of Endor in 1 Sam 28 raised the soul of Samuel.
Nick … how can I put this ….
The above is a gross untruth
You suggested it … Not me!!
Quote (“Nick Hassan @ Dec. 05 2004 @ 04:12”) When Samuel was raised it was not as a corrupted body but a living soul leaving the corrupt body in the earth surely.
Seeing YOUR quote, I THEN SAID
Quote (“Adam Pastor @ Dec. 05 2004 @ 10:20) So let me get this straight …
You believe that the witch of Endor, a woman of familiar spirits, actually raised the soul of Samuel from the dead!!!
My, you give witches way too much credit.
Again, you err. Only GOD can raise the dead.
And He will do so through Jesus Christ, His Son.
Your reply @ Dec. 05 2004,18:01 was to quote 1 Sam 28.12ff + a few more colorful words ….
So, if you going to suggest or assert I said something. Do it right! You have the ability to look back over the thread to see who said what!
I in no way suggested that the witch of Endor in 1 Sam 28 raised the soul of Samuel. YOU DID!
And when I stated that YOUR suggestion was … fanciful!
You did not appear to be well pleased.
(1 Th 5:21) Prove all things; …December 13, 2004 at 11:31 pm #4903
Sorry AP . What meant to write was
“you suggested I believe “so a couple of words got eaten by gremlins. I Know you do not believe that .So for the rest of the post?December 15, 2004 at 11:12 am #4917
Quote All these references to LIFE ,as far as I can see, are “Zoe” rather than “Psuche” wherever they occur in the NT.
Book of LIFE
Crown of LIFE
Water of LIFE
Tree of LIFE
Do you see what I am getting at?
It is also used in the following:
Luke 12:15 And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.
Luke 16:25 “But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
Maybe you'd like to say 'what you're getting at'?
Quote Do we know whether or not those in the 2nd resurrction have a new body because if they don't how can that punishment be eternal as in Rev 22?
What verse are you referring to in Rev 22? Maybe you would like to tell us how you see it?December 15, 2004 at 6:00 pm #4918
As I said there were only a couple of the hundred or so “zoe” quotes that did not seem to relate to eternal life. You have shown them.
My point was that in Matt 10.28 iI would have expected “zoe” rather that “psuche” if eternal life was at risk wouldn't you?
Sorry that was Rev 21.8 and 20.14. We know this fire is eternal from Rev 20.10 but is the Second death eternal for man?Rev 21.8 would suggest so as it suggests a state rather than an event.December 15, 2004 at 8:24 pm #4923
28 “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the life. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both life and body in hell.
I gather from your posts that ‘life’ means eternal life with the Father. If you have your name in the Book of Life you will receive this life .
It would not make much sense for God to destroy those that he had already given ‘eternal life’ to. Those who’s lives are destroyed in the second death never received ‘eternal life’ . They had both life and body destroyed.December 15, 2004 at 9:32 pm #4926
I guessed you would say that. That is why I asked about the second resurrection body and the second death but I await your views on them.December 15, 2004 at 10:39 pm #4928
Quote Sorry that was Rev 21.8 and 20.14. We know this fire is eternal from Rev 20.10 but is the Second death eternal for man? Rev 21.8 would suggest so as it suggests a state rather than an event.
I have bit of an idea of where this could be leading but to be sure I would appreciate it if you would post your response, to the question you have asked above, first.December 15, 2004 at 10:57 pm #4930
I am seeking information,not leading anyone into a trap!December 15, 2004 at 11:43 pm #4931
You asked the question, so I don’t understand why you would hesitate in answering it? How am I supposed to trap you with a question you asked?December 16, 2004 at 12:00 am #4932
RR Please read again. I am seeking information on a question for which I do not have any answer and since this is a forum I hoped you would be able to help me.December 16, 2004 at 2:02 am #4936
oops gremlinsDecember 16, 2004 at 3:44 am #4937
I thought you were inferring that I was leading you into a trap by asking you to answer the question.
I would just like you to post what you think is the answer to that question, then I will be able to see what angle you are coming from. With the large amount of posts you have submitted, on various subjects, I'm sure that you hold to a belief which would answer that question.February 22, 2005 at 9:33 am #5424t8Participant
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Thought that I would put this discussion to the front. It's subject covers body, soul and the spirit of man which is currently being discussed in the Holy Spirit discussion I think. There may be some food for thought for someone.
Here is my take on the subject:
We are our soul. That is who we are, our identity.
What we are is flesh (man), that is our nature.
We/me (soul/s) is/are self aware because God breathed into our soul. Like turning on a torch, we became alive.
Baptism in the Holy Spirit is receiving the Spirit of God without measure, so that our spirit is connected to God Spirit. We become one with him. Our drop of water (spirit) is connected to the Ocean God's Spirit.
So the spirit of man, God can take back at death. But the Spirit of God that we recieve when we are born from above is not a once only thing, but the Spirit poured out without measure. It guarantees that we will not see death.
The soul is who we are. Perhaps the area of our will, character and personality.
The body is the vessel that contains the soul and lets us interact with the physical realm because the body we have is physical and of this world. It acts like a filter only letting us see and hear certain waves. Like a cocoon it is a form of protection locking us in the physical realm and hiding the greater realm from us.
So the spirit that God gives us in the beginning is his breath which gives us awareness and life. But baptism in God's Spirit makes us one with him so that our spirit the spirit that he gave us will be one in unity with his Spirit and this makes us pure in spirit and one with God.
The spirit is the God conscience part of us and what gives us life.
The soul is the self concious part of us.
The body is the world conscious part of us.
It is our soul that God saves and his spirit he can take back at death. But God connects our spirit with his Spirit when we are born again. We are eventually given a spirtual body to make us complete.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
And my soul shall be joyful in the LORD: it shall rejoice in his salvation.
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
” And do not fear those who kill the body, BUT ARE UNABLE TO KILL THE SOUL. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in Hell”
This is my take and I open open for correction.
I also ask for an opinion regarding the next verse. Is it talking about a literal house or our body?
2 Corinthians 5:1
Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.February 22, 2005 at 10:13 am #5426t8Participant
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Quote (Ben Elohim @ Feb. 22 2005,19:00) “A soul” essentially just means “a person.”
A person means 'a son'.
per = a, one.
son = offspring.
We know that Jesus is the Son, but I assume that he was a son before he became a man because he came from God before partaking of the flesh.
Here are 3 questions:
1) Which of the following can be taken away and yet still leave a person?
- a) body;
c) spirit of man;
d) Spirit of God.
E.g. I believe that you can still be a person without the Spirit of God. Any others?
2) If we can be lead by the Spirit or our flesh, then what part of us can be led?
3) We know that we can be led by the Spirit or flesh, so is the part that can be led who we really are?February 22, 2005 at 9:49 pm #5441
” O Lord thou hast searched ME and known ME…..
Where can I GO from thy Spirit?…
Thou didst form MY INMOST PARTS;thou did st weave me in my mother's womb. I give thanks to thee for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.Wonderful are Thy works and MY SOUL knows it very well. My FRAME was not hidden from thee, when I was made in secret”
What is plain here is that the author talks of himself in two ways
That does not make them one thing but simply means man can be spoken of in both ways
And both are true.
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