What is Man?

This topic contains 265 replies, has 17 voices, and was last updated by  t8 6 months ago.

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  • #4522
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Adam Pastor,
    Which is more important body or spirit?
    Pauln said of the lustful sinner in 1 Cor 5.3
    ” United in Spirit with you and empowered by our Lord Jesus I hand him over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord”
    1 Peter1.24
    ” All mankind is grass and the glory of men is like the flower of the field. The grass withers, the flower wilts, but the word of the Lord endures forever”

    Our time in the flesh is only an short opportunity to grasp eternity in Jesus.
    “The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak”
    ” It is the spirit that gives life : the flesh is useless”
    1 Cor 3.2
    ” I fed you with milk and did not give you solid food because you were not ready for it. You are not ready for it even now, being very much in a natural condition? For as long as there are jealousy and quarrels among you are you not OF THE FLESH. And is not your behavior that of ordinary Men? When someone says'I belong to Paul ' and someone else says 'I belong ton Apollos' is it not clear that you are still AT THE HUMAN LEVEL?”

    Why highlight the least relevant aspect of our life-the FLESH?

    #4524
     NickHassan 
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    ps
    Rom 8.5f ” For those who are according to the FLESH, set their minds on the things of the FLESH, but those who are according to the Spirit,the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the FLESH is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the FLESH is hostile to God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God , for it is not even able to do so and those who are in the FLESH cannot please God.

    However you are not in the FLESH but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

    But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you ,He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will aklso give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who indwells you.

    So then ,brethren, we are under obligation, not to the FLESH , to live according to the FLESH -for if you are living according to the FLESH you must die: but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body you will live, for all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God”

    Does the flesh control our lives or bring glory
    Rom 6.3f
    “Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus have been baptised into his death?Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in oprder that ,as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

    For we have become united to him in the likeness of his death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection. Knowing this , that our old self was crucified with him , that our old BODY of sin might be done away with , that we should no longer be slaves of sin: for he who has died is freed from sin””

    #4694
     NickHassan 
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    Hi ,
    One of the features of the NT is that Jesus and his followers healed those oppressed by evil spirits and the book of Mark features many of these. It would appear that demons cause physical and mental illnesses.
    In Lk 11 Jesus said
    ” When an unclean spirit goes out of a man it passes through waterless places seeking rest and not finding any, it says
    'I will return to my house from which I came '
    And when it comes it finds it swept and put in order. Then it goes and takes along seven other spirits more evil than itself and they go in and live there; and the last state of the man becomes worse than the first”

    So demons think and organise and can communicate with one another. They prefer to occupy people. They hate water[?baptism]They believe they own the person they live in which is as a vessel or home to them. A person freed from a demon is very vulnerable to repossession, and more so than those who are free it would appear. Why is this? Perhaps because a person thus affected has had his own spirit so damaged or incapacitated. Perhaps doubts have destroyed the defences?The other message I am sure that is in here is that such a freed man needs to be saved and be filled with the Holy Spirit to stay safe?
    What do others think?

    #4750
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Adam Pastor,
    We know we are body ,soul and spirit from 1Thes 5. So when Adam was created in Gen 2.7
    ” And the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground[BODY]And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life ;and man became a living [SPIRIT] soul [SOUL]”
    So the body of Jesus was no different to ours. It too had to be made of the dust of the ground so he was conceived of Mary and new creation-the second Adam.
    But soul [person] and spirit [spark of life] are of the breath God.
    Gen 1.26 says
    “Then God says' Let us make man in our image, after our likeness' “
    We are made in the image of God and His Son. The Father  has no body so any similarity with Him can only be in soul and or spirit.
    So if Jesus existed as spirit and soul [Logos]in a heavenly body then there is no problem in him shedding that body and coming to inhabit his natural human body.

    1 Cor 15 talks about Adam being the first man and Jesus being the second it is plain that Paul was only talking about the natural human body.
    45″..Adam, the first man, BECAME a living soul..”
    47″..the first man WAS OF EARTH, FORMED FROM DUST,the second IS from heaven.Earthly men are like the man of earth, heavenly men are like the man of heaven.”

    So no conclusions about Jesus life with the Father can be drawn from these verses. Adam was the first to live in a natural body and Jesus is the second Adam to inhabit a human body. The natural came first before the spiritual. It says, however, Jesus IS from heaven and HAD a spiritual body but shed it to take a human body. We hope to gain a heavenly body like the one Jesus had in heaven prior to his coming to earth and regained it when he went back to his Father.

    Can you understand what I am getting at? Do you agree or have I erred?

    #4752
     Adam Pastor 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 04 2004,22:46)

    So if Jesus existed as spirit and soul [Logos]in a heavenly body then there is no problem in him shedding that body and coming to inhabit his natural human body.

    Adam was the first to live in a natural body and Jesus is the second Adam to inhabit a human body. The natural came first before the spiritual. It says, however, Jesus IS from heaven and HAD a spiritual body but shed it to take a human body. We hope to gain a heavenly body like the one Jesus had in heaven prior to his coming to earth and regained it when he went back to his Father.

    Can you understand what I am getting at? Do you agree or have I erred?


    You have greatly erred.
    What you are giving here is a classic defintion of reincarnation
    To shed one body to inhabit another is reincarnation … that is Eastern paganism

    The Scriptures teach resurrection not reincarnation.

    Besides, one cannot use 1 Thess 5.23 to define what man is made up of i.e. (3 parts), spirit, soul and body
    Otherwise, using that logic, I could take Mark 12.30 and say that man is made up of 4 parts,
    i.e. heart, soul, mind, strength!
    Or I could take Heb 4.12 and say that man is made up of 4 parts, soul, body, joints, marrow!
    These verses are not giving us biology lessons of what man consists of. NO!
    Mark 12.30 is simply saying poetically, to love GOD with everything, with your whole being
    Heb 4.12 is simply saying poetically, that the word of GOD can get to the very core of the matter
    Likewise, 1 Thess 5.23 is simply saying poetically, may GOD sanctify you and preserve you completely, preserve your whole being

    The scriptures already define what we are … living souls
    When we die  … seeing that souls can die e.g. Ezek 18.4, 20; 13.19, Rev 16.3; Gen 17.14, Exo 12.15, 31.14, Lev 7.20, etc;
    we become dead nephesh … dead souls [Lev 21.11, Num 6.6; 19.11,13,16]
    We sleep in the dust of the earth [Dan 12.2], in Sheol … we sleep the sleep of death [Psa 13.3]
    until the resurrection.

    Until you drop the Hellenistic, Platonic (di/tri)chotomy-definition of mankind, you will continue to err.
    Get back to the Hebraic scriptural definition of man.
    Man does not preexist themselves.
    Man has no part of him that is inherently immortal.
    Man, that is, body, soul, spirit, joints, marrow, etc is completely mortal
    Man's only hope of immortality comes from GOD, He alone has immortality. [1 Tim 6.16]

    Therefore, Jesus was/is a man.
    He therefore didn't preexist himself.
    He was not inherently immortal.
    He had no immortal part to him.
    He was completely mortal. He truly was dead for 3 days.
    GOD raised him from the dead and gave him, immortality.
    He therefore, is the first immortal man, the firstborn of the dead, the firstfruits of them that sleep [Col 1.18, 1 Cor 15.20]

    My advice:
    Drop the Platonism/Hellenism and embrace the Hebraisms.
    And you will be on the right track.

    #4755
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Adam Pastor,
    Thank you for your opinion which you clearly hold strongly. Your scriptures talk of death, but they do not define death. You impose your “Hebraic” interpretation to them but you have not justified that belief in my view. You give the impression that your interpretations are according to your beliefs rather than the other way around.

    None of those scriptures describe the death of a soul but only of a body-unless you can show how. Your allegorical analysis of 1 Thess 5 is not helped by your separation of man into in 4 parts because

    1.clearly joints and marrow are part of the body,
    2.heart and mind and strengths are qualities of the soul-the part of us that loves.

    We do not have the right to define as poetic what can be interpreted literally do we?
    They talk of the sleep of death which I agree with. But if a body is cremated or allowed to decay then what is left can hardly be described as a soul. When Samuel was raised it was not as a corrupted body but a living soul leaving the corrupt body in the earth surely.
    The greek word is psuche -breath, the soul, heart, mind, persons [and other similar related meanings]derived from

    psucho-to breathe ,blow, make cold.

    How can these meanings relate to a body? Sounds more like what we call the psyche [soul]-the heart and mind that have to be renewed after salvation.
    Gen 1 says Adam was a man before he had the breath of God breathed into him.

    And what of the resurrection.
    1Peter 3.18 concerning Jesus it says “He was put to death insofar as fleshly existence goes but was given life in the realm of the spirit. It was in the spirit also that he went to preach to the spirits in prison. They had disobeyed as long ago as Noah's day, while God waited patiently until the ark was built.”
    So Jesus who had died but was alive went to visit others who had died but were alive. Jesus also said indirectly that Abraham was alive still. What of those waiting under the altar in Revelation and those confined to pits of darkness in 2 Peter 2.4? What of the rich man in hades in Lk 16?

    Sorry I cannot fit your ideas into the bible but am happy to keep conversing about it as my mind is not closed.

    #4766
     Ramblinrose 
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    #4767
     NickHassan 
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    Hi,
    I must admitI would be surprised if there was not an organised doctrinal defence to any scripture offered.

    #4768
     NickHassan 
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    but I prefer to communicate with honest truth seeking individuals than denominations. Why don't you tell us what these answers are? You must know them to believe them surely?

    #4770
     NickHassan 
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    Hi RR,
    I have had a quick look at the sites anyway. The same greek word is used for the Holy Spirit, human spirits, demons, unclean spirits and angels as ministering spirits. These sites relate the word to the angels without evidence that it is not human spirits spoken of as most would accept.
    These sites doctrinally define man as only body[called soul] and spirit as far as I can tell so their teaching is based on and in defence of this false premise.
    However they also struggle with Jesus visiting in the spirit. Both say it could only have been after the resurrection that this visit occurred. And both say in the new resurrection body.
    But this ignores the words” ..it was in the spirit that he went to preach..”It does not say body. Besides the resurrection body of Jesus was the one he died in, still with the wounds from the crucifixion, as Thomas would testify. It was not the imperishable new body till he went to heaven.
    Anyway I await your summary and corrections.

    #4771
     Ramblinrose 
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    Nick
    I will not summarise or correct. The articles speak for themselves.  I posted them for readers to glean understanding.  Just because you don’t agree with them doesn’t mean others won’t find them interesting.

    #4772
     Adam Pastor 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 05 2004,04:12)
    When Samuel was raised it was not as a corrupted body but a living soul leaving the corrupt body in the earth surely.  


    So let me get this straight …
    You believe that the witch of Endor, a woman of familiar spirits, actually raised the soul of Samuel from the dead!!! :laugh:  :laugh:
    My, you give witches way too much credit.
    Again, you err. Only GOD can raise the dead.
    And He will do so through Jesus Christ, His Son.

    The Bible speaks of physical resurrection.
    The whole man dies, the whole man shall be raised from the dead! Irrespective of how long they have died, how they have died … the whole man shall rise again, physically

    (Acts 26:8)  Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?
    (1 Cor 15:35-38)  But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

    #4773
     NickHassan 
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    Ok Adam Pastor.
    This below is scripture. Saul, in disguise, goes to a medium and asks her to conjure up Samuel.
    1 Sam 28.12
    ” When the woman saw Samuel she shrieked at the top of her voice and said to Saul' Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!'
    'But the king said to her
    'Have no fear .What do you see?'
    The woman answered Saul.
    'I see a preternatural being rising from the earth.'
    'What does he look like?'asked Saul
    And she replied
    'It is an old man who is rising, clothed in a mantle'
    Saul knew it was Samuel, and so he bowed face to the ground in homage.
    Samuel then said to Saul.
    'Why do you disturb me by conjuring me up?'
    Saul replied
    'I am in great straits for the Philistines are waging war against me and God has abandoned me. Since He no longer answers me through prophets or in dreams I have called you to tell me what to do.'
    To this Samuel said
    ' But why do you ask me ,if the Lord has abandoned you and is with your neighbour? The Lord has done to you what he foretold through me; he has torn the kingdom from your grasp and has given it to your neighbour David. Because you disobeyed the Lord's directive and would not carry out His fierce anger against Amalek, the Lord has done this to you today. Moreover the Lord will deliver Israel, and you as well, into the clutches of the Philistines. By tomorrow you and your sons will be with me and the Lord will have delivered the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines”

    It happened.
    So what part of the Word of God do you not accept here? How can you appear to show such contempt for God's Word, his prophets and his servants?

    Yes the whole man, body, soul and spirit will be raised at the resurrection. But remember man was man [as body only ] before God breathed into Adam the breath of life and he became a living being.
    Gen 2″The Lord God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life ,and so man BECAME a living being”
    Again Gen 3.19″ For you are dirt and to dirt you shall return “

    Likewise when it says in Heb 4 that God's Word “divides soul and spirit” are you saying this scripture also is untrue because in your reasoning such division is impossible?

    You seem to offer your doctrine as more reliable than the Word of God ? I prefer to trust the Word of God Adam Pastor.

    #4776
     NickHassan 
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    I quite agree Ramblinrose. Any information can help us clarify truth.
    What did Jesus mean, in your opinion, when he said in
    Matt 10 .28 ?
    ” And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell”
    and Lk 12. 4-5
    “And I say to you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear; fear the one who after He has killed has authority to cast into hell; yes I tell you fear Him”

    #4781
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Adam Pastor,
    You are right in one way. The perishable body puts on the imperishable. The old one is not taken off but the new is put over the old.
    ” 1Cor 15.53 “For this perishable must put on the imperishable and this mortal must put on immortality”
    You say to follow the hebraic understanding but the OT, especially the psalms, constantly speak of the body and soul as separate. eg ps 16.7
    “I will bless the Lord who has counselled me.
    Indeed my mind instructs me in the night.
    I have set the Lord continually before me;
    because He is at my right hand ,I will not be shaken.
    Therefore my heart is glad , and my glory rejoices ;my flesh will also dwell securely for thou wilt not abandon my soul to Sheol,neither wilt thou allow Thy Holy one to see the pit”

    Heart and mind are mentioned separately from flesh and when the flesh sleeps they are still active. The soul can go to the pit or Sheol , but the flesh does not.

    In Lk 16 the rich man in Hades is dead, but alive and full of regrets-how do you explain this?

    #4787
     Ramblinrose 
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    Matt 10.28
    And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul : but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell .

    Luke 12:4-5
    And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
    But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell ; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

    5590    
    AV – soul 58, life 40, mind 3, heart 1, heartily + 1537 1, not tr 2; 105
    1) breath
    a) the breath of life
    1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
    a) of animals
    b) of men
    b) life
    c) that in which there is life
    1) a living being, a living soul
    2) the soul
    a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
    b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
    c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

    1067   hell
    Hell is the place of the future punishment call “Gehenna” or “Gehenna of fire”. This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.

    Matt 10.28
    And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the life (which will come at the resurrection): but rather fear him which is able to destroy both life and body in hell (total destruction in the second death after the resurrection).

    Luke 12:4-5
    And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do (they can only kill the body – they play no part in your future destiny at the resurrection).
    But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell (fear him that can kill you and end your life completely – the second death) yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

    #4788
     NickHassan 
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    Thank you RR,
    Do you agree that the soul is an “essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved at death?” or do you only allow the one that fits with your church doctrine? If not why would you choose the obscure meaning as that is not the way of God?
    I see you translated “Soul” as “Life [which will come at the resurrection]”
    The same greek word is used in Matt 22. 37.
    Do you translate that as
    ” Jesus said to him 'You shall love the Lord your God with your whole heart,
    with your whole life [which will come at the resurrection] and with all your mind '”

    The words “which will come at the resurrection” are added to the Word of God so I can only believe they were added for my understanding. Otherwise I fear you are perverting the Word. That is rebellion against the Spirit of God.
    Please rethink your approach for your own sake.

    #4789
     Ramblinrose 
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    Quote
    why would you choose the obscure meaning

    5590    
    AV – soul 58, life 40, mind 3, heart 1, heartily + 1537 1, not tr 2; 105

    As you can see above, has been translated as ‘life’ 40 times and as ‘soul’ 58 times – I wouldn't have thought this to be an obscure translation.

    Quote
    I see you translated “Soul” as “Life [which will come at the resurrection]”
    The same greek word is used in Matt 22. 37.
    Do you translate that as
    ” Jesus said to him 'You shall love the Lord your God with your whole heart,
    with your whole life [which will come at the resurrection] and with all your mind '”


    Am I to understand, using your reasoning above, that I should interpret all verses with as ‘soul’ – seeing ‘life’ is such an obscure meaning?  

    Matthew 2:20  Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child’s life .
    Matthew 6:25  Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life , what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
    Matthew 10:39  He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
    Matthew 16:25  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
    Matthew 20:28  Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
    Mark 3:4  And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life , or to kill? But they held their peace.
    Mark 8:35  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.
    Mark 10:45  For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
    Luke 6:9  Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life , or to destroy it?
    Luke 9:24  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
    Luke 9:56  For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives , but to save them. And they went to another village.
    Luke 12:22  And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life , what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.
    Luke 12:23  The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.
    Luke 14:26  If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
    Luke 17:33  Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
    John 10:11  I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
    John 10:15  As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
    John 10:17  Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life , that I might take it again.
    John 12:25  He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
    John 13:37  Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.
    John 13:38  Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The #### shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.
    John 15:13  Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
    Acts 14:2  But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren.
    Acts 15:26  Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Acts 20:10  And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.
    Acts 20:24  But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
    Acts 27:10  And said unto them, Sirs, I perceive that this voyage will be with hurt and much damage, not only of the lading and ship, but also of our lives .
    Acts 27:22  And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man’s life among you, but of the ship.
    Romans 11:3  Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life .
    Romans 16:4  Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.
    Ephesians 6:6  Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart ;
    Philippians 1:27  Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
    Philippians 2:30  Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life , to supply your lack of service toward me.
    Colossians 3:23  And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily , as to the Lord, and not unto men;
    Hebrews 12:3  For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds .
    1 John 3:16  Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
    Revelation 8:9  And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life , died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
    Revelation 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

    Quote
    The words “which will come at the resurrection” are added to the Word of God so I can only believe they were added for my understanding. Otherwise I fear you are perverting the Word. That is rebellion against the Spirit of God.
    Please rethink your approach for your own sake.

    I would think that the majority of those reading my post would be intelligent enough to realise that the brackets are mine and that they are only an interpretation for those versus.  You seem to delight in trying to make me look foolish and discredit me.

    Quote
    Do you agree that the soul is an “essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved at death?” or do you only allow the one that fits with your church doctrine?

    Again, presumption on your part that I am part of any church or hold to a church doctrine.  And tell me why, when you r
    eply in such a manner, would I bother to answer your question?

    I have deliberately tried to make my posts contain mainly bible verses and strongs interpretations so as to leave no opening for your unkind attacks and insults – yet you persist.

    #4790
     NickHassan 
    Participant
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    Thank you Ramblinrose ,
    If you look again at what I said there was no direct accusation but only warnings about possible risks. I would hope you would do the same for me if I was teaching questionable doctrines. But if it caused offence then I apologise.
    Looking again at the Matthew 10 verse your interpretation simply cannot stand up without the words added in brackets and that is why I was confused about additions to the Word.

    “And fear not them that kill the body but are not able to kill the life”

    It makes no sense. It is duplication in it's simple reading. Life is not implied in any way as a future event here either. If God had meant us to know that the life was only given later He would have said so plainly and it would not require such verbal calisthenics to justify such an interpretation.

    Yes the same word is used for 'soul' and 'life' as often as each other so thank you for clearing that up. But that does not give us freedom to substitute them as they are vastly different. In English 'bread 'can mean money and some 'grass' does not need a lawnmower but they cannot be substituted in their normal contexts without perverting the meaning.You can probably fit some Dodge parts in an old Chevy but not without destroying the authenticity of both.

    If you say that a physical man is just a 'living soul' and both words can substitute for one another then again we have duplication and no sense. Such beliefs deny all the scriptures about the 'flesh' or 'body' alone. And if 'life' and 'soul' mean the same to you isn't that what you were denying in the first place? That the life is in the soul and not just the body?

    You are papering over vast cracks in this doctrine, whether it belongs to a church or not, and this doctrine is not of the Spirit in my opinion.

    #4804
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
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    Hi Adam Pastor and Ramblinrose.
    You say there is no separation between body and the soul.
    2 Cor 4.16f
    'We do not lose heart because our inner being is being renewed each day even though our body is being destroyed at the same time. The present burden of our trial is light enough and earns for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison. We do not fix our gaze on what is seen but on what is not seen. What is seen is transitory;what is unseen lasts forever.
    Indeed we know that when the earthly tent in which we dwell is destroyed we have a dwelling provided for us by God, a dwelling in the heavens, not made by hands but to last forever. We groan while we are here as we yearn to have our heavenly habitation envelop us. This it will, provided we are found clothed and not naked. While we live in our present tent we groan;we are weighed down because we do not wish to be stripped naked but rather to have the heavenly dwelling envelop us, so that what is mortal may be absorbed by life. God has fashioned for us this very thing and has given us the Spirit as a pledge of it
    Therefore we continue to be confident .We know that while we dwell in the body we are away from the Lord .We walk by faith, not by sight. I repeat, we are full of confidence and would much rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord”

    So scripture says we dwell in our natural body. Paul, the tentmaker, calls it a tent, a temporary and perishable form of accommodation. There is no doubt that Paul describes a very distinct separation between body and soul. Not only is there a separation but simply no connection. We just live in it. The breath of God was blown into it to give life to it, not to become it[gen 2]. Rather that breath enlivens what is dead and of earth.
    This body is what is seen, as it is visible, but faith asks us to grasp the concept of the future body with confidence. It is unspiritual to focus on the old natural flesh and give it so much value as it is just a vehicle to clothe the soul.
    We are promised a better habitation, a spiritual , permanent and imperishable body when we die and this new body envelops the old. That is as long as we are clothed-clothed with Jesus in baptism-and we are given the Spirit as a pledge of this new life. We are not to be as the Laodicean church in Rev 3-conceited but naked ,poor and blind.
    This new habitation is not heaven as scripture never says we go to heaven so it applies to the new heavenly body. It is not as houses and tents are, made by human hands, but made by God in the likeness to the man from heaven, Jesus, as in 1Cor 15.
    Please learn from the words of Paul and do not put your doctrines above his revelation from God.

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