January 29, 2004 at 5:40 am #3233
In Response to one of dmateo's posts in another discussion
He said the following:
Interesing question, are we created or are we partly created.
the LORD formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
What do you think of this part? The LORD created the earth and heaven. So the dust of the ground from which man are formed could be said created. After that it's formed, to the shape of a man. But the man is still a form of dust, with no life. So the LORD breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.
Ecclesiastes 3:18-21 (Eng-NIV)
18 I also thought, “As for men, God test them so that they may see that they are like the animals.
19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same faits awaits them both; As one dies, do dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless.
20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to to dust all return
21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth.
It's interesting that Solomon should put animal and us as equal in creation. I do agree that both Animal and Men are formed out of Dust, for it is said so in Genesis.
Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.
So in that conclusion, can we agree that our body (form of dust)is created but our spirit (breath of life)came from God (breathed into his nostril) ?
Regarding the Jesus.
According to John1:3, it's clear that he was not created. As many other scripture also agrees on that.
If you look at John1. He was addressed as “the Word” in verse 1. Not as a personality, but rather as an it. Later on on verse 2, than “the Word” was reffered as a personality “He”. Perhaps this is the turning point of all things when “the Word” are given a will of his own.
At this point, still John did not address “the Word” with a name of a person. I would say Jesus is the name of the Word of God when he inhabit the body of man (which is formed from dust).
This would again conforme the creation. Adam was created out of a dust form + breath of life from God.
Jesus is the result of a dust form + The Word (him, which has no name as was addressed so many time in John chapter 1). He (the Word) will inturn be known by all of us as Jesus Christ.
When did the word God his own will, I don't know perhaps during verse 2 of John chapter 1. Since Jesus did mentioned “before Abraham, I am”. Is the word “I” refer to the bodily form of Christ, certainly not, for his bodily form is formed out of dust, essentially provided by Mary. Can we say when he said those words, he refer to his Spirit ? “the Word” as addressed by john1:1 ?
In regards to those above. Could we also say that by bing baptised, we were rebirth, in spirit. Doest that counts as another creation. I do not know. As now it's quite hard to defined creation in this point. Even genesis didn't said anything about specific act of the creation of man.
26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish in the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; Male and female he created them.
The LORD God formed them man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
On which point does man is created. I don't know. There is no real distiction that could be told if the act of forming man's body from dust is creation. Or is the whole act of forming the body from dust + breathed breath of life is creation. Or only the latter ? There isn't enough to conclude from Genesis alone.
Hopefully someone can give a more thorough explanation, but probably in another forum as this topic became irrelevant with the forum subject.January 29, 2004 at 5:40 am #3230
I enjoyed your post as you ask a lot of good questions and your thoughts on some of the points seem good to me at least.
In 1 Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
My thoughts on this are not conclusive, nor are the necessarily right. But here goes.
spirit: Comes from God and gives us life.
soul: Originally a thought of God. That thought is then given a free will and can choose his own destiny.
body: Comes from created substance and is formed by God's own hand as a jar if formed by a potter.
So God thinks of us, then sets a free from his own mind so that we become an expression and then gives us life by giving us a spirit and then we are fashioned in a womb in order to exist in this world.
Not sure if the order is correct and not even sure if my concept is correct. But if we look at the Word of God, it means the expression of God.
I personally believe that Jesus was the first expression to come into his own existence and then God created all else through his Word. This is what I define as created. All that came from God through Christ.
So at death, a mans body turns back into dust whence it came and his spirit goes back to God who gave it and our souls await judgement under the altar of God.
At the resurrection our souls are given life and raised up to give an account to the Father of our spirits. I am not too sure of the timing of this resurrection, but some scriptures indicate that the dead are raised first, then those that are alive are raised. We will follow the dead to be with the Lord.
This could be happening now or at a later date.February 15, 2004 at 3:22 pm #3231Anonymous
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Mineral,vegetable or simply human animal???February 16, 2004 at 3:55 am #3228
Spirit=Life force and connection with God and other beings with spirit.
Anyone disagree?February 16, 2004 at 4:14 am #3232thehappymanParticipant
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Question ? at what point did we receive water ? from the due? or from the breath? or no water was needed. I know of the valley of dry bones, Lazarus raised from the dead, no water . Food for thought.February 17, 2004 at 4:00 am #3229
Question ? at what point did we receive water ?
I am not sure what you mean. Are you talking about being born of water? Or perhaps the fact that our bodies are mainly made of water?October 27, 2004 at 11:39 pm #4346
God created man's body from the ground and blew the breath of life into his body making him a living being.
After the fall God spoke to Adam of his body in Gen 3.19
” By the sweat of your face shall you get bread to eat, until you return to the ground from which you were taken;for you are dirt and to dirt you shall return”
But the next chapter shows that life does not end with the death of the body when He said to Cain
” your brother's blood cries out to me from the soil”
So the breath of God in us gives us a soul [mind and heart]and a spirit.
Both are frequently mentioned ,and sometimes together, in the OT especially the psalms139,142,107,143,146,124 121,120,119 etc.
When we are born again our spirit dies, and is replaced by the Holy Spirit, The mind and heart are transformed by being renewed [rom 12.2] but our body remains of earth until the rapture or resurrection.
Do you agree?November 9, 2004 at 3:01 am #4455
I suspect that God, through the Logos, made a body from the components of the soil of planet earth, and that includes water, and then breathed 'life' into that body. I see John teaches that the mind is the spirit of man but I see it as part of our soul.
1Cor 15″ …The first man Adam became a living soul” Somewhere it says”no one knows a man like his own spirit”
Likewise in Lk 24.39 when the apostles thought Jesus was a spirit when they saw him walking on the water and when he appeared amongst them and then he said to them
“a spirit does not have flesh and bones as I have.”
He did not say spirits or ghosts do not exist as he could have.
not sure if this helpsNovember 9, 2004 at 3:40 am #4459
ps i mean the man who posts as 'John' on this forum not the evangelist.November 9, 2004 at 9:37 pm #4474
Heb 4 .12.”… piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit..”
2 Cor 1.22 ” ..God who also sealed us with and gave us the Spirit in our HEARTS as a pledge”
2Peter.1 19″And so we have the prophetic word made more sure , to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place until the day dawns and the morning star [Spirit of Jesus]rises in your HEARTS”
Eph '3.17″ ..Christ may dwell in your HEARTS..”
So the heart [and mind] or SOUL is the container of the human, and Holy Spirit.
The soul believes, grieves, meditates, understands, hopes, fears and loves. Jesus had all these qualities too as t8 has shown.
But the soul does not die in death but sleeps[1thess 4.14].
Mt 10.28″ And do not fear those who kill the body, BUT ARE UNABLE TO KILL THE SOUL. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in Hell”
But look at what the Father says about Himself
Is 42.1″ Behold My servant whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom MY SOUL delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him”November 9, 2004 at 10:06 pm #4475
Quote But look at what the Father says about Himself
Is 42.1″ Behold My servant whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom MY SOUL delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him”
Perhaps this is the difference between God and his Spirit?
The Father and his Spirit. i.e. The soul (self) and the Spirit (life).
Who knows?November 10, 2004 at 4:43 am #4478
Heb 1.3″ This Son is the exact reflection of the Father's glory,The exact REPRESENTATION of the FATHER'S BEING…”
Gen 1 26″ Then God said ” let us make man IN OUR IMAGE, AFTER OUR LIKENESS…GOD CREATED MAN IN HIS IMAGE, IN THE DIVINE IMAGE HE CREATED HIM..”
We know the Logos was the “first born Son”, begotten in the beginning, before the creation of the other sons of God and before he was born of Mary. The Word tell us he partook of flesh and he was like to us. So perhaps he was a soul and spirit as the Logos, and was clothed in flesh like us in all those ways.
We know he was like to the Father ,the exact image of the Father. How close is that likeness? Does that mean the Father is soul and Spirit too? We know that God is Spirit. We have a body that is totally of earth but that is not where our life comes from. We know God does not have a body but is He like to us in other ways?
I have always said soul was created but did Jesus had a soul in the beginning when he was begotten? God is the original life and we are made in the image of Jesus who is the image of the Father.. Does that exclude soul? God has soul atributes with his mind and heart descibed in the word. I do not know . Who does?November 13, 2004 at 7:49 pm #4505
1 Cor 15.4f
“So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown in the earth is subject to decay,what rises is incorruptible. What is sown is ignoble, what rises is glorious. Weakness is sown , strength rises up. A natuaral body is put down and a spiritual body comes up. If there is a natural body , be sure there is a spiritual body. Scripture has it that Adam, the first man, became a living soul:the last Adam has become a life giving spirit. Take note. The spiritual was not first :first came the natural and after that the spiritual. The first man was of earth ,formed from dust , the second is from heaven. Earthly men are like the man from earth, heavenly men are like the man from heaven. Just as we resemble the man from earth , so shall we resemble the likeness of the man from heaven.
This is what I mean, brothers:flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God: no more can corruption inherit incorruption.
Now I am going to tell you a mystery. Not all of us shall fall asleep, but all of us are to be changed-in an instant,in the twinkling of an eye, at the sound of the last trumpet. The trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. This corruptible body must be clothed with incorruptibility, this mortal body with immortality. When the corruptible frame takes on incorruptibility and the mortal immortality then shall the saying of scripture be fulfilled
'Death is swallowed up in the victory' ”
That which Paul is saying must be important as he repeats it and explains it in so many ways. The new body will not be the same as the resurrected body of Jesus as it still bore the wounds, that Thomas was able to put his fingers in, and must have been the old one despite the fact he could go through walls and doors.
Does this scripture only apply to the first resurrection of the saved? I think it unlikely it could apply to the second as they do not have the life giving Spirit. Earthly bodies of flesh and blood are clothed in the spiritual and they become immortal.
Who can give more light here?November 13, 2004 at 10:10 pm #4507
Just a couple of things for now:
1) Our bodies are of this earth and God is going to create a new Earth and Heavens where sin has never dwelt. So a completely new creation, even our bodies it seems.
2) Also the reason why our hands stop when we clap them rather than going through each other is not because the atoms are touching, rather it is the electromagnetic waves that repel. Just as larger objects in the universe hold smaller ones in their orbit by reason of their mass (a sort of magnetic property) so it is that physical cannot go through physical because of electromagnetic waves. Scientists define these as laws, such as gravity. Of course we know that there is a law maker.
Perhaps Jesus wasn't subject to the physical laws of the universe anymore and his physical body had spirtual properties by reason of the laws it was subject to.
Whatever the truth is here, it is certain that we will have a spirtual body after we shed this physical one and no more will we be tempted by the desires of this flesh. We will be free and free to soar to the highest places in God.
Jesus himself soared up to heaven and in like manner that he left is how he will return. He came as a humble man and he will return a glorious and triumphant king. The wicked will hate the light that much that they would rather the rocks fall on them.November 14, 2004 at 2:08 am #4509
Here are some of my thoughts.
The flesh and blood body derived from Adam and earth is no more when we are resurrected on earth to reign for 1000 years with Jesus and thence into eternity. If we are alive when Jesus returns our old body will transform to the new body instantaneously.
But the old body was made in the image of God and the Son of God except that ours was of earth. Angels have spiritual bodies that are imperishable and not designed for reproduction-we are told we will have bodies like to theirs. The Son of God too had a heavenly and spiritual body of a similar nature to the angels I expect.
Our new body will be based on the same framework [perhaps the soul] as our old earthly body but will like to the spiritual body of the Logos. It will be imperishable and glorious.
who knows?November 14, 2004 at 5:56 pm #4510
Of course if Jesus, the man from heaven, had a heavenly body then he must have preexisted in heaven. Otherwise these verses make no sense.
His glory far exceeded that of the angels and we will share that glorious new form. We have not seen this heavenly body so it must have been part of what he shed to assume our likeness? It does make it easier to grasp that we were made in his likeness too.November 15, 2004 at 1:34 am #4511
No, I am not sure that I was right there. Because the natural came first, not the spiritual. Of course the Son of God did not become man till his physical birth. So the body of the heavenly man would not have been formed till he was resurrected? So his initial heavenly form may be different to that after his resurrection?
I am getting out of my depth so give us a hand.November 15, 2004 at 4:45 am #4513
If all things were created through Christ, then he pre-existed Heaven (if Heaven is created). I would of thought that a body is a vehicle that gives you access to a realm. E.g. A body from earth for earth and a body from heaven for heaven.
So perhaps before creation Christ didn't have a body, but was a Spirit. Not sure of this and I am only speculating here.
What form if any, the Logos had I do not know, but I know that the Logos was WITH God in the beginning and came from God.
For us the physical comes first, then the Spiritual. But I am not sure if that is the order for Christ. After all he came from above to begin with, whereas we come from here and are translated upward.
He inherited the highest position, whereas we are rewarded with postion for our good works that sit on the true foundation.November 15, 2004 at 8:27 am #4516Adam PastorParticipant
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Hmmm! Beginning to see it now are you!
That's right. The natural came first. Paul has no notion of a pre-existent Christ as an angelic being, spiritual creature; a living being of some kind called the Logos or such like.
NO! Christ's beginning was in the womb of Mary …
Miraculous conception, nonetheless, a man.
Christ existed after Adam.
Paul juxtaposes the two because they were both on equal terms.
Both miraculously created without sin.
Adam, whilst sinless, was tempted … sadly he yielded to sin.
Christ, also sinless, was tempted … he overcame
Where the first Adam failed, the last Adam succeeded.
The last Adam now resurrected, immortalized, and glorified, has been made a life-giving spirit.
However, in the order of things, Adam came first … obviously, being the first ever (hu)man
In the fulness of time [Gal 4.4], as recorded by Luke (3:23,38); Christ was born, the Last Adam, who is NOW a life-giving spirit.
The first ever man, Adam, was made of the dust of the earth, earthy.
The second man, Christ, was made of a woman by the power of GOD … he is the Lord who will come FROM HEAVEN … he is hence, heavenly.
If one takes plainly what 1 Cor 15.46 says … Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
It is obvious that Paul, did not believe that the Last Adam pre-existed the First!!! He had no such concept.
1 Cor 15.46 alone should refute the so-called personal pre-existence of Christ.
That is why, you may feel you're getting out of your depth … or why there is the need for speculation.
Because this verse does refute the idea of Christ literally pre-existing Adam.
Fortunately, for the both of you … there is another optionNovember 15, 2004 at 6:04 pm #4520
Hi Adam Pastor,
Neither Adam, nor Jesus, nor us are only bodies. This scripture addresses only the flesh.
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