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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 05 2006,05:39) Hi RR,
As I expected the writer expresses his opinion that what is reported in scripture as happeneing could not actually have happened. It does not surprise me.
NickThis same subject was raised in this topic on about page 4 or 5 in a discussion with Adam Pastor.
Am I to understand that you believe that satan has the power to raise the dead – whether that be the body or spirit?
It has always been my understanding that only God can raise the dead.
Quote 1 Samuel 28: 6 And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by the prophets.
7 ¶ Then Saul said to his servants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “In fact, there is a woman who is a medium at En Dor.”
8 So Saul disguised himself and put on other clothes, and he went, and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. And he said, “Please conduct a seance for me, and bring up for me the one I shall name to you.”
9 Then the woman said to him, “Look, you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off the mediums and the spiritists from the land. Why then do you lay a snare for my life, to cause me to die?”
10 And Saul swore to her by the LORD, saying, “As the LORD lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.”
11 Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.”
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”
13 And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”
14 So he said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.
15 ¶ Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” And Saul answered, “I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.”
16 Then Samuel said: “Why then do you ask me, seeing the LORD has departed from you and has become your enemy?
17 “And the LORD has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David.
18 “Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day.
19 “Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”
20 ¶ Then immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, and was dreadfully afraid because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten no food all day or all night.(verse 6) Why would YHWH choose to allow him to receive answers now and by such means?
If, as you believe, the witch was able to bring Samuel to life, it is interesting to note that the witch asks who is to be ‘brought up’, he tells her who he wishes to be ‘brought up’, she then sees a spirit ascending 'out of the earth', and then Samual states that he was ‘brought up’. Up from where? The grave? So his spirit was buried with him then. It doesn’t sound like his spirit was in heaven.
(verse 13 and 14) It appears that only the witch could see the spirit and not Saul. He understood it to be Samuel only by the description given to him by the witch.
(verse 19) Samuel says they Saul will be where he is the next day. Assuming this is Samuel's spirit speaking
I gather he is referring to where his spirit just came from. I believe the spirit remains in the grave so this verse causes no problem for me as he would be telling Saul that tomorrow he would be in the grave. But, I understand that you believe that the spirit goes to heaven (or is that paradise) when a person dies so this would mean that Saul is going these. Surely that cannot be the case.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 05 2006,06:33) Hi RR,
I believe what is written in scripture.
I don't believe that actually answered the question I asked.Quote Am I to understand that you believe that satan has the power to raise the dead – whether that be the body or spirit? Hi RR,
I do not see Satan mentioned in the scriptures here.
Saul claims responsibility for calling up Samuel.
Bodies are resurrected not spirits.
Samuel was awakened from Sheol which is not in heaven but in the earth.
He spoke and prophesied correctly confirming the spirit of godly prophecy.
Nowhere does scripture say this was divination or satanic power or not true as written.
When souls are seen to be enlivened scripture calls them spirits, as with the apostles believing they saw a spirit when Jesus walked on the water.
By the way you do not tell me that Jesus could not have walked on the water as that is impossible.
So why do you try to show that what happened with Samuel was not possible because you cannot understand how or why it happened?
Do we only believe what we can prove according to our minds?Hi RR,
Raising the dead is resurrection.
Samuel was not resurrected .
He was not seen as a physical body which was still rotting in the earth.
He was aroused from his sleep in the bosm of Abraham where he was with the other souls of the righteous I would expect.Nick,
Quote I do not see Satan mentioned in the scriptures here. Quote Nowhere does scripture say this was divination or satanic power or not true as written.
This women had a familar spirit and I would understand a familar spirit to be from the evil one.Quote 1 Samuel 28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor. Quote Saul claims responsibility for calling up Samuel.
Confusion. I thought the woman with the familiar spirit did the job.Quote Bodies are resurrected not spirits.
It was only Samuel's spirit that was said to have came up, not his body. Where do you believe a persons spirit goes when they die? I understood from previous posts that you believed they returned to God. But Samuel's spirit (which came up) was obviously not with God then.Quote He spoke and prophesied correctly confirming the spirit of godly prophecy. Acts 16:16 16 ¶ Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling. 17 This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, “These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation.”18 And this she did for many days. But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And he came out that very hour.
It appears that a spirit from the evil one knows of the future.
Quote When souls are seen to be enlivened scripture calls them spirits, as with the apostles believing they saw a spirit when Jesus walked on the water.
By the way you do not tell me that Jesus could not have walked on the water as that is impossible.
I don't understand what this had to do with the current discussion but I will answer. Yahshua had much power given him by YHWH. He could turn water into wine, make the lame walk and the blind see and calm a storm. I don't see why he wouldn't be able to walk on the lake. Besides, it wasn't a ghost they saw but Yahshua. Are there really ghosts?Quote So why do you try to show that what happened with Samuel was not possible because you cannot understand how or why it happened?
I suppose it's because I thought only God could raise the dead. That must be pretty dumb of me hey!Quote Do we only believe what we can prove according to our minds?
Without using the witch of Endor, can you show me where else in scripture it shows that those with familiar spirits (spirits not of YHWH) can truly raise the dead (their spirit or their body)? Maybe you can help me understand this better.Hi RR<
It is scripture that says that the spirit of a man returns to God who gave it[Eccl].Scripture also shows that man is body , soul and spirit [1Thess] and that there is a division between the soul and the spirit of a man[Heb 4]The spirit of a man is that which gives him life and as James 2.26 says
“For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead”
The scriptures do not say that occult powers do not exist or are not effective. The magicians of the court of the Pharaoh were able to replicate some of the miracles wrought by God through Moses. And in the last days we are warned in Revelation about the powers that can deceive the elect shown by Satan.
The Psalms, Ezekiel and other places are full of descriptions of Sheol which is in the earth and where the rich man and Lazarus were as shown by Jesus in Lk 16. Since the body was rotting and their spirit had returned to God then the soul is the only aspect of the being of man that is left.
Did you think it was the body of Samuel?
Surely not.Quote Did you think it was the body of Samuel?
Surely not.Where have I indicated that I believed it was the body of Samuel?
Hi RR,
I take that as a no but my confusion stems from your comment about raising the dead, which relates to resurrection.
We need to learn so much about Sheol and Hades as scripture is full of descriptions of it though many ignore them preferring an understanding of it as a common grave for the bodies of the dead and yet Jesus showed us so much about it in Lk 16.Quote Nowhere does scripture say this was divination or satanic power or not true as written. For the edification of others who have ears to hear …
(1 Chr 10:13-14) So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against YAHWEH, even against the word of YAHWEH, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of IT; 14 And inquired not of YAHWEH: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.
Hi Adam Pastor
So Saul died because He asked a witch instead of asking God. But what I think Nick was meaning was that the witch ended up regretting what she had done when she realised that the King had summoned Samuel the prophet – who (being yet a prophet of God – though dead) rebuked Saul and told him that he would be that same day in the same place as Samuel was.
Before the victory of Christ at his resurrection – scripture tell us the souls of the righteous were held captive, and were led out of this captivity with Jesus when he rose from the dead.
Saul was the Lord's anointed – according to David – whom David refused to kill when he had the opportunity.
So personally I believe that Saul was killed for his disobedience to God's commands and God even allowed a woman with a familiar spirit to be instrumental in this, to bring forth the spirit of Samuel who then condemned the King.
Quote (Adam Pastor @ Aug. 05 2006,11:25) Quote Nowhere does scripture say this was divination or satanic power or not true as written. For the edification of others who have ears to hear …
(1 Chr 10:13-14) So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against YAHWEH, even against the word of YAHWEH, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of IT; 14 And inquired not of YAHWEH: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.
Hi AP,
Yes a familiar spirit is of the occult power world which is under the kingdom of Satan.
This unique event was sought through occult means and
allowed by God for our edification.Ps GGGIrl; this is the thread spoken of.
Hi Adam Pastor,
The sin of Saul that led to the Spirit of God leaving him [1Sam 16.14]and eventually to his death at his own hand was disobedience to the Lord as shown in1 Sam 15
10f
“8He captured (A)Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and (B)utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.9But Saul and the people ©spared Agag and the best of the sheep, the oxen, the fatlings, the lambs, and all that was good, and were not willing to destroy them utterly; but everything despised and worthless, that they utterly destroyed.
10Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel, saying,
11″(D)I regret that I have made Saul king, for (E)he has turned back from following Me and has not carried out My commands ” And Samuel was distressed and (F)cried out to the LORD all night.12Samuel rose early in the morning to meet Saul; and it was told Samuel, saying, “Saul came to (G)Carmel, and behold, he set up a monument for himself, then turned and proceeded on down to (H)Gilgal.”
13Samuel came to Saul, and Saul said to him, “(I)Blessed are you of the LORD! I have carried out the command of the LORD.”
14But Samuel said, “(J)What then is this bleating of the sheep in my ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?”
15Saul said, “They have brought them from the Amalekites, for (K)the people spared the best of the sheep and oxen, to sacrifice to the LORD your God; but the rest we have utterly destroyed.”
16Then Samuel said to Saul, “Wait, and let me tell you what the LORD said to me last night.” And he said to him, “Speak!”
17Samuel said, “Is it not true, (L)though you were little in your own eyes, you were made the head of the tribes of Israel? And the LORD anointed you king over Israel,
18and the LORD sent you on a mission, and said, '(M)Go and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are exterminated.'
19″Why then did you not obey the voice of the LORD, (N)but rushed upon the spoil and did what was evil in the sight of the LORD?”
20Then Saul said to Samuel, “(O)I did obey the voice of the LORD, and went on the mission on which the LORD sent me, and have brought back Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites.
21″But (P)the people took some of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the choicest of the things devoted to destruction, to sacrifice to the LORD your God at Gilgal.”
22Samuel said,
“(Q)Has the LORD as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
As in obeying the voice of the LORD?
Behold, ®to obey is better than sacrifice,
And to heed than the fat of rams.
23″For rebellion is as the sin of (S)divination,
And insubordination is as (T)iniquity and idolatry
Because you have rejected the word of the LORD,
(U)He has also rejected you from being king.”24Then Saul said to Samuel, “(V)I have sinned; (W)I have indeed transgressed the command of the LORD and your words, because I feared the people and listened to their voice.
25″Now therefore, (X)please pardon my sin and return with me, that I may worship the LORD.”
26But Samuel said to Saul, “I will not return with you; for (Y)you have rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD has rejected you from being king over Israel.”
Interestingly and ironically his disobedeince was put alongside the sin of divination.
Hi Adam Pastor,
You say“Let me add that Paul saw himself as a living mortal soul with a likewise mortal body. He therefore knew one day he would die. He would cease to live.
Paul therefore looked forward to the day when he would be immortalized i.e. resurrected as an immortal soulHe never once envisaged himself existing/living at any point without a body (like the Greeks/Platonists believed) hence his statement: (2 Cor 5:3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
He called this Greek way of thinking … nakedness.
Paul, like every other Jew who believed in the hope of the resurrection; looked forward to the day that he would be clothed with immortality; i.e. immortalized with an immortal body.
The house [2 Cor. 5.1ff] therefore was that immortal corporeal spiritual body that is promised to every saint.
Paul like every other saint, will be clothed with that new body in the resurrection; henceforth the saints will be immortal human beings like our Lord Jesus the Messiah.The OT Jews and the early church were not dualists.”
Dualism came from the Hellenistic Gnostics. It originated in Greek philosophy & Platonism.The Gnostics propagated Dualism under the guise of Christianity, that somehow mankind is split up into two parts:
a mortal body and an immortal soul.Later on, the Greek fathers used this view to propagate their version of Jesus. That is, Jesus had a mortal body which housed an immortal being known as the Logos. That is, Jesus was this pre-existing immortal being namely the Logos, become flesh.
So at the crucifixion, the body died but the immortal, pre-existing Logos (which was who Jesus really was) lived on.The rest is history.”
I see your pont.
The first resurrection is the hope of Paul and of us such that we will be found clothed in immortality at the return of Jesus.
But it does not explain Paul's view of death as putting aside of the old tent body, in your view that man is soul and such separation is not possible.Hi WIT,
You say“In my view, spirit is the breath that YHWH gives us that causes us to be alive. When we die, that breath leaves us, and our bodies live no more. Thus, when Y'shua committed his spirit to YHWH on the cross, he immediately breathed his last, (Luke 24:36). The word “spirit” has other meanings, and are used in different ways in scripture, but this is its most fundamental meaning. It's most used secondary meaning is somewhat synonymous with the word “mind”. In other, words, if you have the spirit of christ, you have the mind of christ (1 Corinthians 2:16).
Adam Pastor has already discussed the meaning of soul above, so I won't duplicate his thoughts. I would just add that the most common secondary meaning of the word “soul” is similar to how we use the word “heart”. Though we have a physical heart that beats and keeps us alive, when we say, “My heart is sad”, we are describing our emotional mental state, not making the heart into something that exists on its own. “
My view:
Gen 2.7 says man is man when just dust.The breath of God makes us living beings
Dust =flesh
Living=spirit
beings=personand when we die the spirit leaves, as with Jesus, and returns to God but our being remains unto the resurrection of the body..
Hi Adam Pastor,
You say“He never once envisaged himself existing/living at any point without a body (like the Greeks/Platonists believed) hence his statement: (2 Cor 5:3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
He called this Greek way of thinking … nakedness.”
Ps 49 certainly speaks of nakedness, or having no habitation.
” 13This is the (W)way of those who are foolish,
And of those after them who (X)approve their words. Selah.
14As sheep they are appointed (Y)for Sheol;
Death shall be their shepherd;
And the (Z)upright shall rule over them in the morning,
And their form shall be for Sheol (AA)to consume
So that they have no habitation.
15But God will (AB)redeem my soul from the power of Sheol,
For (AC)He will receive me. Selah.”Sheol consumes the form of man but the soul can be redeemed.
Hi ,
Matt 23
” 25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.”
If man is like a vessel or a cup could it be that the outside of that cup is the flesh and the inside of that cup the soul making an integral person till death when the spirit that gives us life leaves man to return to God?
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