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Mike,
That passage in revelations states Jesus is called by the name of the pre-existent law. It is just another way of saying he has the same characteristics as God’s word. That is a message that is repeated often and in many different ways in the New Testament.
Mike,
The rest of those are jumping conclusions though it is my thought trinitarian teachings or its children influence that action. Revelations itself is passage that uses symbolism so I can not even say it is a smoking gun. I do believe it is Jesus is states is called by the the name of the word. I know place that any writer spoke of Jesus by the title of the word. Offhand I can only member them using Son, Christ, and his actual name. That passage and most likely others list quite a few titles. I think he is called by some of his titles in Revelations.
T8,
NET seems to use two different translation strategies in such a way as it looks like two translation teams with completely different translation strategies worked on it. One team translating some parts and the second team other parts then the divergent parts put together as a whole. Since the Hebrew word does not translate creation it seems they were paraphrasing their understanding of Eve’s words.
So mikes premise appears to be at least some experts share his opinion.
Ed J wrote:Hi Mike,
You say that because you believe it is Jesus the writer is speaking of, therefore he is excluded contextually from everything.
But you are also excluding God in the same instance that you are excluding Jesus, do you have a precedence that excludes
someone else besides the one being spoken of? …because that is what you will need – for your theory to have ANY merit.Really Ed? 🙂 Who or what do YOU think the Word in John 1:3 is? Whatever your answer, is it true that God Himself came into existence THROUGH the Word of God? No.
And is it true that the Word came into existence THROUGH itself? No.
So no matter who or what you think the Word is, my point stands exactly how I said it. All things, EXCEPT FOR GOD AND THE WORD OF GOD, came into existence through the Word. Not one thing, EXCEPT FOR GOD AND THE WORD OF GOD, came into being without the Word of God.
And in 1 Cor 8:6, all things, EXCEPT FOR GOD AND OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, came through our Lord Jesus Christ.
If you cannot follow this easy concept, then I cannot help you.
Ed J wrote:*PLUS* you will ALSO need to prove that “The Word” referrers to who you claim, which you have NOT been able to do.
Actually, I’ve proven it beyond a shadow of a doubt for anyone who is really interested in truth. But there will always be those like you, Kerwin, and the Trinitarians who prefer their own illogical man-made concoctions over the actual truth of scripture.
Ed, who is the ONLY person to have EVER dwelled on earth with the glory of God’s only begotten Son? Because that is the one who BECAME FLESH, and dwelled on earth with the glory of God’s only begotten Son. He is called “Jesus” in many scriptures, and “The Word” in a few other ones.
But you cannot LOGICALLY or TRUTHFULLY refute the fact that the being who BECAME FLESH and dwelled on earth with the glory of God’s only begotten Son (John 1:14), is the ONLY being to have EVER dwelled on earth with the glory of God’s only begotten Son (Jesus Christ). You will most likely argue against that clear and easy understanding until the day you die, but you’ll never be able to actually refute it.
Kerwin, I could barely understand most of the stuff you posted. I gathered that you think the rider of the white horse in Rev 19 is “God’s pre-existent Law”. Yet you seem to ignore that the description of the Word of God who rides the white horse is the very same description Jesus gave of himself in Rev 1, 2, and 3. So the rider of the white horse is CLEARLY Jesus Christ, and not “God’s pre-existent Law” – whatever that is. And if John, through revelation from God, calls Jesus by the name “The Word of God” in Rev 19:13, then it becomes OBVIOUS to those of us who are seeking truth that Jesus is also the one the same author (John) calls “The Word of God” in John 1:1 and 1:14.
As for your claim about the NETNotes, you didn’t actually support your theory with examples. Like, “Here they say THIS, and in this other place they say THAT”. But none of that really matters anyway, because you can surely see the list of synonyms for the word “create” in the previous page of this thread, right? So need I say more? If one is “fathered”, that one is a CREATION. If one is “begotten”, that one is a CREATION. If one is “brought forth into existence”, that one is a CREATION.
So any sentient being that God “caused to be” is a CREATION by God. And Jesus/The Word was the first of all those creations by God. That is why he is called “the firstborn of every CREATURE”, and “the beginning of the CREATION by God”. It is why he said the following:
Proverbs 8
22 Jehovah created me as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;23 I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, before the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was born, when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth…..
When I look at your view of Jesus Christ in its entirety I am confused about the following. Perhaps you can clear this up for me. I apologise if you have already done this elsewhere. Also, correct me if I am wrong in representing your views.
You believe:
- The Word that was with God had a beginning.
- Jesus is the Word that was with God in the beginning.
- Jesus as the Word is a created being. God made him.
- God created all things through and for Jesus who is the Word of God.
- As the Word, he existed in the same form as God and at his right-hand side.
- He then he partook of flesh and men beheld his glory as the son of God.
- He has returned to the same glory that he had with God before the cosmos came into being.
- He is still called the Word of God.
Okay, hopefully I have represented you correctly here.
First thing to note is that he was before the Cosmos which was created through him. I guess you could argue that the sons of God were also before the Cosmos itself as they did shout for joy at the creation of the Earth. So it is at least possible that they were there before the Cosmos too, thus if it is possible that the sons are not part of the Cosmos itself, then all the more so the Word of God. Is this your view here?
Where I really struggle however to see consistency in your view is really with the Biblical definition of what it means to be MADE/CREATED. I have mentioned this to you before, and you could have answered me, but I may not have seen it or perhaps I just plain forgot about it.
It is John 1 where I cannot reconcile your view. Interesting how this chapter causes the most problems and differences among Believers than perhaps any other chapter in the Bible.
John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.In case John 1:3 is just a difficult translation, we also have a verse in Colossians that poses the same problem with your view.
Colossians 1:16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.…I am sure you can see what I am about to say.
If Jesus is created/was made then he had to have been created by the Word. Thus he cannot be the Word because he could not have been created through himself a sort of chicken and egg scenario.
And if he is the Word as you contend, then he existed before all that was created including rulers and authorities which would mean he was before all created things which includes the sons of God. So if he is before all creation, then how can he be before himself if he is created. Its as confusing as the Trinity dogma that implies Jesus is the God that he is the son of.
It seems to me at least that the Word is unique and we do see in scripture that Jesus is the only begotten of God, thus an explanation is given about his uniqueness and origin. In fact some Biblical writers go to great lengths to tell us that he is the ONLY BEGOTTEN, so there must be something important for us to learn regarding this. It also seems that he being the only begotten is a point of difference with him and created beings such as ourselves.
So did God begat the Word and then created all things through the Word? Or did he create the Word and then create all things exclusively through his Word which would mean that the Word was created through the Word. Thus the need for a difficult formula to describe the apparent contradiction.
Mike,
I am sorry as sometimes I get tired and/or careless and confuse the issue.
Jesus is not literally the preexistent law. He does have the characteristics of the preexistent law.
This is from biblehub
[“According to Hebrew notions, a name is inseparable from the person to whom it belongs, i.e. it is something of his essence. Therefore, in the case of the God, it is specially sacred” (Souter).]
I am using characteristics to mean essence.
t8 wrote:You believe:
•The Word that was with God had a beginning.
•Jesus is the Word that was with God in the beginning.
•Jesus as the Word is a created being. God made him.
•God created all things through and for Jesus who is the Word of God.
•As the Word, he existed in the same form as God and at his right-hand side.
•He then he partook of flesh and men beheld his glory as the son of God.
•He has returned to the same glory that he had with God before the cosmos came into being.
•He is still called the Word of God.Okay, hopefully I have represented you correctly here.
I don’t know if Jesus had yet been given the “right hand position” before he was made flesh. And Jesus asked for the “same glory” in John 17:5, but as it turned out, God exalted him to an even higher glory than the one he left.
Other than those two things, you have it spot on.
As for your struggle with the Biblical view of “made/created”, see the list of synonyms on the previous page. It is clear from certain scriptures that those same kinds of synonyms applied also in the Bible. You seem to forget that Jesus isn’t ONLY called God’s “begotten” in scripture. He is ALSO called “the beginning of the creation by God”, and the “firstborn of every creature“. Likewise, mountains are said to have been “created” in scripture. But they are also said to have been “born”, and “given birth”.
As for your other perceived problem with my understanding, I have addressed it on the previous page as well…….. once for you, and once for EdJ. t8, it is said many times in scripture that “EVERYTHING” in heaven was created by God. Well……… did God create HIMSELF? Or is it understood that God Himself is EXCLUDED from the “EVERYTHING”? It is the latter, right?
So if the scripture says “EVERYTHING” was created through Jesus/The Word, then isn’t it equally clear that Jesus/The Word is EXCLUDED from the “EVERYTHING”?
Read 1 Cor 8:6. It is the same “ALL THINGS” that came from God which also came through our Lord, Jesus Christ. Now since it’s clear that God Himself is NOT one of the “ALL THINGS” that came from God, it should be clear that Jesus himself is NOT one of the “ALL THINGS” that came through Jesus.
Can you understand that concept?
T8………Jesus is the only begotten son ( from the physical creation of God ) he is the FIRST-BORN from all physical creation into the KINGDOM OF GOD. He is the first OF MANY BROTHERS BORN INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD. Your logic is right about Jesus not being the Word of GOD, Jesus is exactly as we are he is and always was a SON OF MAN, he is also a Son of God in the same way we are without exception, even if his berth was unique it was no more unique the Adam and Eve was. He is a pure human being who came into existence at just the right time in human history by the foreknowledge of God , He is the first perfected human being a prototype of what God has in mind for us ALL.
These trinitarians and preexistences are simply playing into the hands of Satan, who hates the human creation and he himself formulated the false teachings, that cause human beings not to see their great potential , to cloud the truth, he created “THE DOCTRINE OF SEPARATION” , to hide the truth, that we can come to the measure and FULL STATURE OF CHRIST JESUS
peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
Mike,
I am not sure what you are looking for here.
I believe the definition of essence that applies is:
dictionary.com
the basic, real, and invariable nature of a thing or its significant individual feature or features:
Freedom is the very essence of our democracy.It could instead be:
dictionary.com:
Philosophy. the inward nature, true substance, or constitution of anything, as opposed to what is accidental, phenomenal, illusory, etc.
The be indicatives of be such as used in John 1 would phrase it as:
dictionary.com
(used as a copula to connect the subject with its predicate adjective, or predicate nominative, in order to describe, identify, or amplify the subject):
Martha is tall. John is president. This is she.and equivilent meaning from another dictionary is.
Merriam-Webster
d : to have a specified qualification or characterization <the leaves are green>
If you instead desire to hear particular characteristics then John did not say in either John 1 or Revelations 19.
Kerwin, HUH? 🙂
And what I’m looking for is your understanding of the “characteristics” of God’s preexistent Law – whatever that is.
Actually, never mind, Kerwin. I already knew from the first time you mentioned “God’s preexistent Law” that you were once again off in la-la land, trying to confuse the issue with things you cannot even describe or explain to us.
In other words, like always, you will reach for ANY crazy notion to keep from accepting the truth.
I’m not really interested in your “preexistent Law” concept. I just wanted to point out to others that you don’t even know what you’re saying.
Mike,
I mentioned God’s preexistent Law because it is a belief know to actually exist in the first century unlike yours or many of the other ones I hear on this site. I actually obtained it from Wikipedia. In the Logos(Christianity) article though looking again the quote is from Robert Roberg and not Stephen L. Harris as I previously claimed. The Jewish Virtual Library also discusses it in the article Judaism: The Written Law – Torah.
I had to fix that post as the dictionary definitions did not copy and paste without their code.
So if the scripture says “EVERYTHING” was created through Jesus/The Word, then isn’t it equally clear that Jesus/The Word is EXCLUDED from the “EVERYTHING”?
Read 1 Cor 8:6. It is the same “ALL THINGS” that came from God which also came through our Lord, Jesus Christ. Now since it’s clear that God Himself is NOT one of the “ALL THINGS” that came from God, it should be clear that Jesus himself is NOT one of the “ALL THINGS” that came through Jesus.
Can you understand that concept?
This is the exact point. If all that was made/created came by God through the Word, and not anything else existed that was made, then if Jesus is the Word, then the Word could not have been made? Further, if the Word was not made, then how did the Word come to be beside God? Well there are a number of prominent scriptures that point out that he was begotten. Remember it doesn’t say that nothing existed, but that all that was made was made through the Word and no other way.
Obviously God is not included because he was not made so that goes without saying, and secondly the Word could not be made unless the Word was made through the Word, a sort of indefinite loop of which we would need to explain with some kind of weird doctrine similar to what the Trinitarians have to do with theirs.
So if the scripture says “EVERYTHING” was created through Jesus/The Word, then isn’t it equally clear that Jesus/The Word is EXCLUDED from the “EVERYTHING”?
I will explain it again so you don’t overlook it.
You believe Jesus was made/created. He is a created being thus he was created.
But we are clearly told that ALL that was created/made was made through the Word, and to further cement this point, it backs this up with “WITHOUT him NOTHING WAS MADE that has been made. ”
So clearly all is created through him and clearly there is nothing that was created that was not created through him.
So just as we know that God was not made and is not subject to this, so it is that the Word could not be created either. Thus if Jesus existed with God as the Word, then his origin is not the Word, but exclusively the Father, of which the term “only begotten of the Father” seems a fitting title.
As for the firstborn of all creation verse. Well a couple of points need to be made here.
- Some translations say, “firstborn over all creation”
- We also know that he partook of creation by coming in the flesh in our likeness.
I will make it even simpler for you @Mikeboll64
Q: Was the Word created?
If you say yes, then you have a problem as to how the Word was created through the Word.
If you say no, and if Jesus is the Word, then you admit that he was not created.
t8
{If Jesus is created/was made then he had to have been created by the Word. Thus he cannot be the Word because he could not have been created through himself a sort of chicken and egg scenario.}
God ,created THE WORD (JESUS not through his words ) as his first creation ;no words were needed for it was all taken from God it self ,but after the creation of THE WORD then it became necessary for THE WORD to be their ;for all creation will be created through him and for him ,
I hope this put some clarification to it ?
Okay terraricca, if we accept that the Word is created, then these two scriptures have to be wrong.
John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.Colossians 1:16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.…Through the Word all was made and nothing that is made came any other way but through the Word. These two scriptures do not allow for the Word and/or Yeshua to be made.
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