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- Wakeup wrote:
Mike B.
God simply calls them the four beasts they also are created, maybe the first.
1. So the fact that we aren’t given their NAMES doesn’t mean they don’t truly exist, right? Thank you.
2. If they were the first, then they could be called “the firstborn of every creature”, and “the beginning of the creation by God”, right? 🙂 But of course we know who IS called those things, because HE was the first.
Wakeup wrote:Mike B.
Paul also said that Jesus is the first born of the dead.
He was the first resurrected from the dead.Correct. He is called “the firstborn of the dead” because he WAS the first to be raised from the dead. Now, use that same easy understanding to figure out why he is called “the firstborn of EVERY CREATURE”. Get it? “Firstborn of dead” = “The first one from the dead to be born”. Therefore, “Firstborn of every creature” = “The first creature to be born”.
Wakeup wrote:Creatures in heaven are not born, they need a mother to give birth.
Angels are created; not born.That is like saying angels cannot be “sons” of God, because all “sons” have fathers and mothers. It is a fallacy, Wakeup – and no further consideration need be given to it.
Wakeup wrote:John never mentioned the Word BORN. He used the WORD WAS.
In 1:18, John calls Jesus the “only begotten“. Anyone who was “begotten” didn’t exist from eternity. This is common sense.
Wakeup,
How do you understand john’s statement when He said;
It is actually know that John, a Jew, was just using the word logos for Law as according to the rabbis of that time the Law(Logos) was preexistent. In that teaching it is God’s instrument in creation, and is the source of light and life
In the beginning was the Word. He was simply saying what many Jews of his day would understand. It has nothing to do with the word being a spirit being.Stephen L. Harris stated:
Jews. To the rabbis who spoke of the Torah (Law) as preexistent, as God’s instrument in creation, and is the source of light and life, John replied that these claims apply rather to the Logos.
From what I have read Mr Harris, a theologians, does not realize that the Law and the word are one and the same.
Jesus **IS** The Word made flesh.
Yes, he is as he embodies the characteristics of the Word just like he gives the word the characteristics of humanity.
He was in spirit form before the world was.
Scripture states his origins occurred when he was conceived in Mary.
He had glory with God.
Yes, as he was predestined to be the Son of God and his predestined origins occurred before the world began.
All are getting confused because they tend to mix the before and the after creation;and birth.
There is a before creation and an after creation,and the birth of the flesh.I am not sure what you are getting at here. As far as I know God has always existed and so there is no beginning as far as he is concerned. John did choose to leave his use of beginning vague so it may not be speaking of the beginning of creation but only of the beginning of the word coming into the world. I use creation only because it can be demonstrated the word was with God at that time.
Note: My quote of Stephen L. Harris comes from the Wikipedia article labeled Logos (Christianity) accessed 7-27-2014
t8 wrote:Yes we are begotten of our parents, and created by God, but see the subtle difference there? Created because we came through something/someone. Begotten as a direct derivative of our parents, but not begotten from God at that point.
And after we are begotten by God, do we cease to be “creations” of God? If not, there is no difference. Besides, Jesus is not ONLY said to have been “begotten” and “born” of God. He is also said to be the firstborn of every CREATURE, and the beginning of the CREATION by God.
No subtle difference needed, t8. “Born”, “begotten”, “brought forth”, and “created” all amount to the same thing, ie: Someone who didn’t used to exist has begun to exist.
kerwin wrote:It is actually know that John, a Jew, was just using the word logos for Law as according to the rabbis of that time the Law(Logos) was preexistent.
How is that “known”, Kerwin? It’s the first I’m hearing of it. Was John talking about the “pre-existent Law” in Rev 19:13?
The difference is this. Your mother begat you, but did not create you.
God created you, but did not begat you.
However, we are offered the new birth from above. This is what it is to be born again.
While all humans are created, not all humans accept the new birth which is to be begotten of God.Jesus is the only begotten of the Father and then partook of flesh and creation for our sake.
Mike,
kerwin wrote:
Yes, as [the Word] became flesh first through Jesus and then in those that believe in his name.
That’s not the teaching, Kerwin. We are not told that the Word “became flesh THROUGH Jesus”. We are told that the Word became the flesh BEING known as “Jesus”.
If you understood Scripture correctly then you would know it was. It is not even like it is a foreign language. “was made” is a form of “be” and this case that the characteristics of humanity was added to the word of God. You would also know that those who live by the Spirit have the characteristics of the word and therefore the word was given the characteristics of each of them. Jesus is even more so as he is the one by which others are made the word.
It was “the Word” who became flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God’s only begotten Son. And we know that Jesus is the only flesh being who ever did such a thing, right?
Verse fourteen says as the only begotten of God and that can be interpreted a few different ways as you pointed out.
Colossians 1:27New English Translation (NET Bible)
27 God wanted to make known to them the glorious riches of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
and
Colossians 3:4New English Translation (NET Bible)
4 When Christ (who is your life) appears, then you too will be revealed in glory with him.
and
2 Thessalonians 2:14New English Translation (NET Bible)
14 He called you to this salvation through our gospel, so that you may possess the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Also, there is no other instance in the Bible of the Word “becoming flesh”.
John is the only one I know writes that way and John itself is about Jesus. The other letters and prophecy he wrote may have something he states in passing but I do not think so. In short you have to understand where John is coming from to understand where his words. Others do voice the same idea. Paul states believers become a servant/slave to righteousness; another way of saying servants/slaves to the word.
t8.
I nothing but to agree with your statement.
As the Word of God will create many children,that does not make God less,but greater in worship and glory.wakeup.
Mike,
I know because trinitarism is not a Jewish belief while what I wrote is. John was not part of making a new religion, that cam later.
Kerwin.
There was a time when God STARTED creating.This is the beginning of His work.
Not creating God,because He was there from everlasting.
There must be a time when God did not have STARTED creating.
When there was only God.
God is still creating today.
He is creating children through His Word.
All things are created by His Word,and He is not finished with creating.
We are being worked on today and since israel was a nation under God as king of israel.
Then they replaced Him with soul;a man as king.wakeup.
wakeup.
Mike B.
Jesus the man; was made like unto his brethren,he was made flesh; means creature.
He felt pain,had sorrows and tears,and He died like any creature.But He was not a creature before He was made flesh.
He was next to God; and humbled himself to be made unto a creature.
Not only that; he also humbled himself unto death.wakeup.
Wakeup,
There was a time when God STARTED creating.This is the beginning of His work.
Not creating God,because He was there from everlasting.
There must be a time when God did not have STARTED creating.
When there was only God.
God is still creating today.I agree that there was a beginning of creation and that he is still creating today. There has always been one God and that has not and will not change.
He is creating children through His Word.
I agree with the word but the meaning you ascribe to them is different than the ones I do. You use Word as if it is a name Jesus is called by but he was not called by it in Scripture except one place in Revelations, a place he is given many titles.
Kerwin.
Here is scriptural proof that the Word is not just vibrations or breath.
It is the spiritual flesh of Jesus,and can be eaten.
Same with Gods Word he has spiritual flesh.
Not just speech.
That same Word was made flesh.John 6:48 I am that bread of life.
John 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
John 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
John 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
John 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
John 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
John 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
John 6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
Wakeup,
Here is scriptural proof that the Word is not just vibrations or breath.
It is the spiritual flesh of Jesus,and can be eaten.That sounds like cannibalism. I am assuming you understand that before Jesus was originated in his mother’s womb God told his people is they turned away from all their sins and did all that was right their previous sins would not be remembered and so they would have eternal life. So when Jesus states ” Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life” it is clear that those who eat his flesh and drink his blood turn away from all their sins and do all that is good. Elsewhere it is said those who do not believe in the word of God that is spoken by Jesus will be judged by that word but Jesus denied he would judge them, John 12:47-48. If you want eternal life then it is clear that you have to believe Jesus’ words and as a result turning from all your sins and do all that is right.
Kerwin.
You act as those men when Jwsus said those words;you must eat my flesh.
They walked away,but not the apostles.
Jesus meant, You must seek the scriptures for in them contained His spirit.
The more you seek;the more you are feeding yourself with the spirit.
The less you seek; the less you will get of the spirit.
That would lead to starvation of the spirit.Just like the five virgins.wakeup.
Wakeup,
Are you saying as is I that those that believe and obey Jesus’ words are symbolically eating his flesh and drinking his blood?
Kerwin.
Not symbolically Kerwin.
As you dwell more in the bible and seek;you are absorbing spiritual knowledge.
The more undestanding,the more you wil conform to the spirit.
You will get the renewing of the mind and will walk in the spirit of Christ.wakeup.
t8 wrote:The difference is this. Your mother begat you, but did not create you.
God created you, but did not begat you.Genesis 4:1
Now the man had marital relations with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. Then she said, “I have created a man with the help of the LORD!”Also, consider………….
Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were born, before you gave birth to the earth and the world, you were God. You are God from everlasting to everlasting.There really is no difference. Anyone or anything in the history of existence that was “born”, “begotten”, or “given birth” is a CREATION. God CREATED mountains, yet it is said that mountains were “born” in a few scriptures. God CREATED the earth, yet it is said to have been “given birth”.
Jesus was “begotten” by God. Jesus was “born of God”. Jesus was “created by God”. All three are equally true, and all three simply mean that Jesus was brought forth into existence by God. He took part in FLESH. He did not take part in “creation”, for he was the firstborn of every creature BEFORE all things in heaven and earth were created through him.
Jesus/the Word is the first living being that God ever CREATED.
John 1
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.T8, when the above happens, and certain ones are “born of God”, will those ones still be a CREATION of God – even though they were “born/begotten” by God? YES or NO, please.
mikeboll64 wrote:That’s not the teaching, Kerwin. We are not told that the Word “became flesh THROUGH Jesus”. We are told that the Word became the flesh BEING known as “Jesus”.
kerwin wrote:If you understood Scripture correctly then you would know it was.
I understand it just fine, Kerwin………. WITHOUT all the twists and turns you have to ADD to it.
The subject is the same in both parts of 1:14. Ie: [b]THE WORD[/b] became flesh. And THE WORD is who dwelled on earth with the glory of God’s only begotten Son.
So since THE WORD is the PERSON who dwelled on earth with the glory of God’s only begotten Son, which PERSON is the Word? What is that PERSON’S name?
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