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Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2014,19:54) Hi MB,
Thy kingdom come thy will be done.
Kingdom is by rule
Is the kingdom of God a literal PLACE? YES or NO?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 31 2014,08:48) Quote (kerwin @ May 31 2014,05:56)
Also Jesus told the thief he would meet him in paradise that day and the Hades has a paradise according to Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
Kerwin……..Jesus did not tell the thief he would be with him in paradise “that day” Jesus was not in paradise that day he was dead in the grave that day, that is not paradise .The proper way it should be understood is the Jesus said it this way, I am telling you this day, you “SHALL” be with me in paradise.
I agree with what Gene said, Kerwin. Once you look into that verse, you'll find that it could be translated either way.Mike…….Yes it is literally or actual, it is within a person, GOD is A SPIRIT and rules SPIRITUALLY within a person , his rule is from the inside out, not from the outside as human kingdoms rule. The effects of his rule are see literally on the outside also.
Those who have God in them and through them are in his kingdom. Why because as Jesus said THY kingdom come and thy “WILL” be done For he WORKS “IN” us both to “WILL” and do of “HIS” good Pleasure. This is were God rules , his kingdom does not come with OBSERVATION, it is “WITHIN” you, according to Jesus our lord and brother.
Peace and love to you and your…………………..gene
Quote (kerwin @ May 30 2014,13:24) Mike, It is a physical heaven as physical plants are describes as existing in is though I will not have evidence you will except that Enoch has a flesh body unless it is literally states that.
And what do you think of heaven? No plants at all? Just a barren wasteland?
I imagine that the incalculable number of wonders and beauty God made for us on earth can't compare to the wonders and beautiful things of heaven.
Enoch said the plants he saw were unequalled in goodness. He said they had the appearance of vermillion and fire. He said they smelled sweet, and their fruits were good.
I don't think there is a lack of “physical” plants, mountains, lakes, animals, and persons in heaven. They just aren't made from the elements those same things are made from on earth.
I believe the ugliest of those things in heaven are far more beautiful than the prettiest of those things on earth.
But that is my speculation. At any rate, your passage didn't say Enoch was there in a flesh human body. And in Book I, he clearly says he was in visions and dreams when he visited heaven. I have no reason to not assume the same in the part you quoted.
Quote (kerwin @ May 30 2014,13:24) In this case I wanted merely to establish is a physical place we cannot see.
So is the Mariana Trench – the deepest part of the world's oceans.Flesh human beings cannot go there either. But I bet we could with our new, glorious, spiritual bodies.
Pierre and Nick,
Thank you for those scriptures. The do indeed lend credence to the thought that Jesus was actually in Hades.
I will look more closely at those things this time through the Bible.
Gene,
I already know your thoughts on the matter, and they disagree with many scriptures. For example, Jesus said prostitutes will be entering the kingdom of God before the Pharisees. Will literal flesh and blood prostitutes enter into their own bodies? Will they enter into another persons “internal heaven”?
Anyway, I wanted to see what Nick thought about it.
(In a different thread, David has given many scriptures to show that the kingdom of God is a real place, with a real governing body. I have no doubts that the kingdom of God is a literal PLACE that people can enter. I just wanted Nick's input on the matter.)
Gene,
Here is one of those threads, in which David, using scripture, makes it undeniably clear that the kingdom of God is a literal PLACE that people can enter into.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2014,11:01) Hi KW,
And what makes it certain to you that when the nations see him is the same time he meets with his brothers in the air?
I think he will have the wedding feast with them while the wrath of God is satiated on the earth
Nick,Matthew 25:10
New American Standard Bible (NASB)10 And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.
According to this parable the wedding feast is where the brides waited for the coming of the groom.
Acts 1:11
New American Standard Bible (NASB)11 They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into [a]the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”
Footnotes:Acts 1:11 Or heaven
Revelation 20:3
New American Standard Bible (NASB)3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
Revelation 20:4
New American Standard Bible (NASB)4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of [a]their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Footnotes:Revelation 20:4 Lit the
Revelation 20:6
New American Standard Bible (NASB)6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
These seem to foretell that Jesus will come down and dwell with us on earth for the Messianic Age.
Revelation 21:1-2
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The New Heaven and Earth21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
This one seems to tell us the new Jerusalem comes down after the new earth and the new heavens come to be.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 31 2014,22:25) Gene, Here is one of those threads, in which David, using scripture, makes it undeniably clear that the kingdom of God is a literal PLACE that people can enter into.
Mike,It is mentioned in the book of Daniel.
Daniel 2:34-35
New American Standard Bible (NASB)34 You [a]continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
Footnotes:Daniel 2:34 Lit were
Daniel 2:35 Lit like oneQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 31 2014,21:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2014,19:54) Hi MB,
Thy kingdom come thy will be done.
Kingdom is by rule
Is the kingdom of God a literal PLACE? YES or NO?
Mike,I assume you mean that physical items are in it.
Hi KW,
You say
Matthew 25:10
New American Standard Bible (NASB)10 And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.
“According to this parable the wedding feast is where the brides waited for the coming of the groom.”
There is only one bride?
You speak of the bridesmaids?I do not believe they are men but angels
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 31 2014,21:44) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 31 2014,08:48) Quote (kerwin @ May 31 2014,05:56)
Also Jesus told the thief he would meet him in paradise that day and the Hades has a paradise according to Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
Kerwin……..Jesus did not tell the thief he would be with him in paradise “that day” Jesus was not in paradise that day he was dead in the grave that day, that is not paradise .The proper way it should be understood is the Jesus said it this way, I am telling you this day, you “SHALL” be with me in paradise.
I agree with what Gene said, Kerwin. Once you look into that verse, you'll find that it could be translated either way.
Mike,The verse itself is vague. To understand it you need to know the essential Jewish teaching of Sheol which was the base of Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus parable.
None of those that write or that are in the NT go into it very much and it was derived from the OT.
The book of 1 Enoch teaches of it but that place four sections of which only 1 is the paradise. In is mentioned vaguely in Chapter 22:9
Quote And this division has been made for the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of water. Here is a man who ventures the opinion that paradise was once part of Sheol even though I disagree with his opinion based on the fact that Paradise is a generic name that just means pleasure garden, I do agree with some of his evidence.
Quote The truth is that Scripture supports that Hades included both hell AND heaven (Abraham’s bosom, or what Jesus and many of the everyday Jews of his day referred to as Paradise). According to Jesus, in between the two was “A great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.” (Luke 16:26) Note: Source Paradise
Mike,
Quote
And what do you think of heaven? No plants at all? Just a barren wasteland?Some people see it as clouds. It could be wasteland for all I know or just one giant palace. There are ten heavens according to the book of 2 Enoch and 7 according to other sources so I am speaking of the highest heaven.
I was skimming through 2 Enoch some more and found out that there are ten heavens not seven as I said previously. I did not find a description of the landscape of the highest heavens. I found this interesting.
20:1 And those two men lifted me up thence on to the seventh heaven, and I saw there a very great light, and fiery troops of great archangels, incorporeal forces, and dominions, orders and governments, Cherubim and seraphim, thrones and many-eyed ones, nine regiments, the Ioanit stations of light, and I became afraid, and began to tremble with great terror, and those men took me, and led me after them, and said to me:
Note: Ioanit stations of light sound like mirrors of the message of truth according to a blog which I consider unreliable. If you can find better sources and more of them please let me know.
Mike,
2 Enoch may not say he was there in his flesh body but it does say he was changed into a body that was like “(transfigured) one of his glorious ones.” That is in verse 22:9 and after he saw God's face in 22:1-3 as he was in the tenth and highest heaven.
I have not looked into what 1 Enoch says about the heavens but 2 Enoch is said to say that both Eden and Sheol are located in the third heaven.
Quote (kerwin @ May 31 2014,12:16) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 31 2014,21:35) Is the kingdom of God a literal PLACE? YES or NO?
Mike,I assume you mean that physical items are in it.
Yes Kerwin,It is a PLACE (a physical LOCATION) that has tables with food on them, chairs, thrones, a river, trees, angels, etc.
Quote (kerwin @ May 31 2014,12:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 31 2014,22:25) Gene, Here is one of those threads, in which David, using scripture, makes it undeniably clear that the kingdom of God is a literal PLACE that people can enter into.
Mike,It is mentioned in the book of Daniel.
Daniel 2:34-35
New American Standard Bible (NASB)34 You [a]continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
Footnotes:Daniel 2:34 Lit were
Daniel 2:35 Lit like one
David's last post on page one of that thread gives some good proof. As do his first three posts on page two of that thread.Gene needs to read some of those scriptures. He has a habit of taking just one mention of something in scripture, and applying the teaching of that particular context to ALL scriptures.
He does it with “spirit”, thinking that because SOMETIMES “spirit” refers to something inside of a person, it ALWAYS refers to that.
He is now doing it with “the kingdom of God”. He is taking one scripture in one context, and applying it to ALL scriptures. And what's worse, he's using a translation that could only mean the kingdom of God was INSIDE of the PHARISEES.
It is a bad translation. “In your midst” or “among you” are far better translations of those words Jesus said – and those translations DON'T contradict many other scriptures – like his understanding of the KJV translation does.
Perhaps he'll come around………. perhaps not. After all, he STILL insists upon only that ONE meaning of “spirit” – even after all the scriptures people here have shown him.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2014,00:24) Hi KW,
You say
Matthew 25:10
New American Standard Bible (NASB)10 And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.
“According to this parable the wedding feast is where the brides waited for the coming of the groom.”
There is only one bride?
You speak of the bridesmaids?I do not believe they are men but angels
Nick,In the parable there are 10 virgins waiting to marry the bridegroom. Those virgins are symbolic of the church. At other times it is symbolized by one bride. Whatever the number chosen to symbolize the church the idea that the bridegroom comes and enters into the place the virgin(s) waited for him seems to be supported by the words of the angels in Acts 1. Revelations tells us the Messianic Age follows the first resurrection. We are told that resurrection takes place just before the Saints are taken up to meet Jesus in the air as he descends.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2014,01:29) Quote (kerwin @ May 31 2014,12:16) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 31 2014,21:35) Is the kingdom of God a literal PLACE? YES or NO?
Mike,I assume you mean that physical items are in it.
Yes Kerwin,It is a PLACE (a physical LOCATION) that has tables with food on them, chairs, thrones, a river, trees, angels, etc.
Mike,That much I agree with.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2014,01:39) Quote (kerwin @ May 31 2014,12:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 31 2014,22:25) Gene, Here is one of those threads, in which David, using scripture, makes it undeniably clear that the kingdom of God is a literal PLACE that people can enter into.
Mike,It is mentioned in the book of Daniel.
Daniel 2:34-35
New American Standard Bible (NASB)34 You [a]continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
Footnotes:Daniel 2:34 Lit were
Daniel 2:35 Lit like one
David's last post on page one of that thread gives some good proof. As do his first three posts on page two of that thread.Gene needs to read some of those scriptures. He has a habit of taking just one mention of something in scripture, and applying the teaching of that particular context to ALL scriptures.
He does it with “spirit”, thinking that because SOMETIMES “spirit” refers to something inside of a person, it ALWAYS refers to that.
He is now doing it with “the kingdom of God”. He is taking one scripture in one context, and applying it to ALL scriptures. And what's worse, he's using a translation that could only mean the kingdom of God was INSIDE of the PHARISEES.
It is a bad translation. “In your midst” or “among you” are far better translations of those words Jesus said – and those translations DON'T contradict many other scriptures – like his understanding of the KJV translation does.
Perhaps he'll come around………. perhaps not. After all, he STILL insists upon only that ONE meaning of “spirit” – even after all the scriptures people here have shown him.
Mike,You agree with Gene when you claim the Spirit can only rule the spirit of a man and not their body. In the current world the Spirit does only rule the spirit and not the physical world. In the current heaven the Spirit's rule is more extensive, as the bodies of angels are immortal, but even there rebellion exists.
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