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Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2014,02:02) Hi KW,
In what way was the uncorrupted body changed?
Nick,The short answer is:
2 Corinthians 5:4
New English Translation (NET)4 For we groan while we are in this tent, since we are weighed down, because we do not want to be unclothed, but clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 25 2014,01:00) Quote (kerwin @ May 23 2014,17:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2014,04:46) Hi KW,
Jesus made plain that it was the SAME body showing them the holes still in it.
Nick,There is no evidence there were any holes in his body after his resurrection. Only marks were literally mentioned.
And what were those “marks” made from, Kerwin?How did those “marks” come to be on Jesus' resurrected body?
See, it doesn't matter if you want to go against the most logical understanding of Thomas placing his finger in the HOLE – because even if you insist it was a “mark”, and not a “hole”, the point remains that those MARKS were caused by Jesus' crucifixion – which means Jesus was raised in the same body that was crucified.
Mike,A scar is a mark.
A mark can be a scar or the fresh wound or something in between.
I am not sure why you believe the most reasonable explanation is that the scars are wounds. Do you believe they were bleeding as well? Do you believe Thomas said I won't believe Jesus is alive unless I see his dying body and touch his mortal wounds.
To me the most reasonable is that Jesus' wounds were healed but scars remained because that is what God desired. It was done by the same power that raised him from the dead.
I don't believe Jesus was standing there like the living dead with his entrails open to view to his disciples and insisting he was fine and alive. Such a belief sounds unreasonable to me.
Hi KW,
Where is this SCAR mentioned??
Is reason the best basis for scriptural understanding?His entrails would only have fallen out if the wound was in the centre of his belly
The wound was in his sideQuote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2014,02:40) Hi KW,
He was brought back to life in the old tent
The new tent awaited him
Nick,What you say is invention and God said his flesh and bone body nor any other part of him would see corruption any more. In other words he does not and any more. His body was already freed from corruption just as all of creation will be one day.
Romans 8:21
New English Translation (NET)21 that the creation itself will also be set free from the bondage of decay into the glorious freedom of God’s children.
Hi KW,
“What you say is invention and God said his flesh and bone body nor any other part of him would see corruption any more. “is ANY MORE added?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2014,02:40) Hi KW,
He was brought back to life in the old tent
The new tent awaited him
Nick,Stop and think because I am sure your grasp of grammar is large enough to know scar and mark are synonyms. Print used by the AV of the KJV means even less as is means the impression, stamp, etc.
John 20:25
Good News Translation (GNT)25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
Thomas said to them, “Unless I see the scars of the nails in his hands and put my finger on those scars and my hand in his side, I will not believe.”
Hi KW,
Indeed the new creation is not corruptible
So the tattered body of Jesus was yet of the old creationHi KW,
Stopping and thinking so that reason can rule via adjustments of the text is not the way to study scripture is it?Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2014,03:02) Hi KW,
“What you say is invention and God said his flesh and bone body nor any other part of him would see corruption any more. “is ANY MORE added?
Nick,I paraphrased it but it means the same thing. It is in Acts 13:34 and goes “And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption” in the AV of the KJV.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2014,03:05) Hi KW,
And Thomas was not shown SCARS but wounds.
Nick,There are some translations that translate the word to wounds but many do not. Imprint is about the closest English to the Koine Greek word. The Koine Greek word instead is used for pattern, model, imprint, etc. In no other case is it used for wound. There are actually better words for wounds and used for wound quite often.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2014,03:06) Hi KW,
Stopping and thinking so that reason can rule via adjustments of the text is not the way to study scripture is it?
Nick,In reality the ability to correct paraphrase reveals the correct understanding. On the other hand not addressing the point and leveling accusations looks deceptive.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2014,03:06) Hi KW,
Stopping and thinking so that reason can rule via adjustments of the text is not the way to study scripture is it?
Nick,Stopping and thing means you are quick to list and slow to speak. Scripture declares it is a good thing.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2014,03:04) Hi KW,
Indeed the new creation is not corruptible
So the tattered body of Jesus was yet of the old creation
Nick,You insist in saying what is not written even though you know it is not written. That is not good fruit. That is responding without considering what is right.
Acts 13:34
New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)34 As to his raising him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way,
‘I will give you the holy promises made to David.’
What Paul states is the Jesus was raised from the dead no more to return to corruption. You seem to believe he was raised from the dead to return to corruption.
I already pointed out a time will come when creation will be liberated from corruption. Jesus is just early to be liberated.
Hi KW,
Acts 2
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
but you say
” You seem to believe he was raised from the dead to return to corruption.”How could you imagine that?
Mike,
Quote He wanted to see and touch the actual wounds from Jesus' crucifixion – in order to believe it was truly Jesus, and that he was truly raised from the dead. Some translations claim he did while most say it was the imprint, print, marks, etc. of the nails. I found one that said scars. I looked at the original language and imprint is most likely right. Even though some translated it wound I saw no where else the same word is translated wound but I did see other words the more often translated wound. stigma may have been better as Paul uses it to speak of Jesus' marks in Galatians 6:17.
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