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Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 18 2014,08:45) Quote (kerwin @ May 17 2014,16:57) Mike, In chapter 12 we are told that after Enoch was hidden from men he went to live with the holy ones.
And?
Mike,That would be angels as he was hidden from all human being and not only Seth's line. Of course the only reason I conclude that is Scripture states he was not found.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 18 2014,08:42) Quote (kerwin @ May 17 2014,16:27) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 17 2014,08:27)
Kerwin,Men have been taken to heaven in visions and dreams. What reason do I have to NOT believe the things they saw there?
Mike,Because to believe it means what you think it does means that you believe men have seen God even as you at the same same time believe no man has seen God.
Okay, listen carefully this time, Kerwin.I've said this before, and I don't want to have to KEEP saying it.
I believe that no man can see God with HUMAN EYES. I believe that eyes made of flesh are incapable of seeing God. I believe that, except for a few rare cases where God opens flesh eyes, angels are invisible to human eyes.
But men have been taken into God's realm in dreams and visions. While the man was sleeping, or whatever, the NON-FLESH part of the man (soul, spirit, mind, or whatever) was taken into heaven. And THAT PART of a man IS able to see God, and the angels in heaven.
So YES, men have seen the FORM of God. But NO, they cannot do it with their fleshy HUMAN eyes.
Mike,John 1:18 states no one has seen God. You say that is only speaking of physical eyes and not the eyes of the soul, both which can see outward likeness.
These men that saw Jehovah with the eyes of their soul then made his similitude known. They did it before “the only Son” was conceived on earth to make God known.
Do I have what you believe correct?
Mike,
Quote John 3:13 NASB ©
No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.I like the passage as it is obviously hard to understand.
There are obviously translators who believe Enoch and Elijah ascended to heaven so you wonder how they look at it. Some seem do go by the word ascended and say Enoch and Elijah did not ascend but were instead caught up.
I use the word ascend looser than they do and I do not see it as physical ascending or descending but as spiritual ascending and descending. Not the word “has ascended” is perfect tense and so means the spirit is currently in heaven. As you said Jesus was not currently in heaven at that time. On the other words the “descended” is a simple past and so the spirit may or may not be still on earth. So even without the literal words “who is in heaven” it still implies them by the use of a perfect.
Note: A chart of perfect and aorist usages.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 14 2013,05:53) Mike, Quote Your “dress” analogy is useless, because it doesn't fit the discussion – which is about whether or not God could cause a spirit being to be born again as a flesh being. Hardly, as I was careful to word in in order to replace dress with flesh and the creature you claim Jesus is as woman.
The question is not whether God could but rather whether God did do as you say.
Never the less this is a test of part of your chosen doctrine.
Are you claiming that John 1:14 can be translated the Word was conceived in the flesh?
Quote He came in the flesh? YES or NO? No, as according to you he is not coming inside the flesh. Instead you claim he became fully human both flesh and soul and therefore no longer an angel. I do not even believe that such a creature would be Michael at that point as such a drastic change is a act of creation just like adam was made of the earth and Eve of Adam's rib. Perhaps if you claim he was not truly human but instead had an angel soul inside a human body.
Quote Please list each number, with a YES or a NO beside it. In other words, don't DIVERT the discussion with an analogy that isn't even close to what we're talking about – just so you don't have to answer the nine points I made. Actually you are diverting this discussion with your questions as I initialized it. I will judge which I feel fit in with the conversation and are significant. At this point I waiting for you to iron out a seeming conflict in your doctrine.
You should reword 1,2, and 7 as I do not believe you hold the creature you claim became Jesus transformed into flesh without a soul.
Quote
1. He was turned into flesh? YES or NO?
2. He became flesh? YES or NO?
…
7. He was transformed into flesh? YES or NO?My answer is no to all three because the word was not made, become, or be transformed into flesh without a soul.
three, four, five, and six sound like the answer is yes.
eight and nine are not even in Scripture and so the answer is no.
KQuote My answer is no to all three because the word was not made, become, or be transformed into flesh without a soul. it is the soul of the son (THE WORD) THAT WAS MADE TO COME DOWN AND PUT INTO THE WOMB OF THE VIRGIN MAID, AND SO TO ALLOW HIM TO BE COME ONE OF US ,WITH FLESH
Hi KW,
Will you need to grow crops and kill animals to maintain your flesh or will you sup from the tree of life?Hi KW,
Phil 1
21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;
Hi KW,
Phil3
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
T,
Are you claiming that the soul of the word was placed into a human body instead of the body of the word being transformed into a human body?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 20 2014,22:33) Hi KW,
Will you eat the food of angels or will you need access to the latrine for eternity?
Nick,Adam and Eve and all the living souls in the garden were herbivorous.
The children of Israel ate manna.
Wakeup,
Quote When will you wake up, and understand, that the scribes are not there to lead us to the truth,but to lead us astray. You really should watch yourself to make sure you do not disagree with Jesus.
Matthew 13:52
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
Its not the fact the person is a scribe but whether or not they are instructed unto the kingdom of heaven.
Hi KW,
Phil 3
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 20 2014,22:25) Hi GB,
Rom7
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Nick,That is not about the resurrection. Paul is teaching us how things when he was under the law. He was a slave to sin and Jesus came and set him free and he is exceedingly grateful.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2014,02:34) hi KW,
yes.
So you will still need access to a latrine?
Nick,I assume Adam and Eve as wells as the children of Israel did. I see no reason that is not the same with the changed body.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2014,02:37) Hi KW
“Body of this death”
Nick,Spiritual dead. That is why he is alive in his mind at the same time.
Hi KW,
Be careful how you speak of Paul.
His heart was of God but his Body was yet influenced by “sin in the flesh”.Death would free him and he wanted to die.
.Romans 6:7
For he that is dead is freed from sin.Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2014,02:26) T, Are you claiming that the soul of the word was placed into a human body instead of the body of the word being transformed into a human body?
Kyes ,because a body is nothing but the soul is everything ,
you are not your body ,but your soul is you and covered by flesh that you put to work with the powers of your soul ,
THIS IS WHY IT SAYS THE SOUL THAT SINS WILL DIE
NOT THE BODY THAT SINS WILL DIE ,YOU EVER SEE A JUDGE CONDEMN A CAR IN AN ACCIDENT NO , IT IS THE DRIVER RIGHT ,YES THE DRIVER IS LIKE THE SOUL IN A LIVING BEING ,
AND NOT TRANSFORMED BUT ONLY THE SOUL WAS PUT INTO THE VIRGIN ,HE COULD NOT TAKE ANYTHING FROM HEAVEN ,THIS IS WHY IT SAYS HE HUMBLE HIMSELF TO BECOME LIKE US
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2014,02:26) Hi KW,
Phil3
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Nick,That is true.
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