- This topic has 3,120 replies, 19 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 9 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 14 2014,13:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 13 2014,02:27) What PERSON is metaphorically called “the wisdom of God” in the above verse, Kerwin? Could it be the same PERSON who is metaphorically called “the wisdom of God” in Proverbs 8?
Mike,Wisdom in Proverbs 8 is a personification and not a person as by her kings reign.
Jesus is the wisdom of God in the same way the God is love. He has the attribute of Wisdom and therefore reigns by Wisdom.
Luke 7:35
New International Version (NIV)35 But wisdom is proved right by all her children.”
Your question mistakenly assumes wisdom in Proverbs 8 is a person and either yes or no is a wrong answer.
In 1 Corinthians 1:24, the PERSON called “the wisdom of God” is Jesus. This is as clear as day from the wording of the scripture.And I asked you if Proverbs 8 could be referring to the SAME PERSON as “wisdom”.
If you don't believe the “wisdom” in Proverbs 8 is a PERSON, then you could have just said, “NO”. Or you could have said, “NO, because the wisdom in Proverbs 8 is not a person at all.”
Either way, it WAS indeed a “YES” or “NO” question that I asked. Agreed?
My intention was simply to point you and others to the similarities between the things said about “wisdom” in Proverbs 8, and the things said about “Jesus” elsewhere in scripture.
You are free to ignore those similarities, just as you ignore the similarities between “the Word” in John 1, and the things said about “Jesus” elsewhere in scripture.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 14 2014,14:26) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 13 2014,02:27) Hmmmmm………… Proverbs 8:22 says God brought this particular “wisdom” forth as the first of His works. Where have we heard that before? Do “firstborn of every creature”, “God's firstborn Son”, and “beginning of the creation by God” ring any bells?
Mike,The AV of the KJV translates Proverbs 8:22 differently.
From NETNotes:
There are two roots קָנָה (qanah) in Hebrew, one meaning “to possess,” and the other meaning “to create.” The earlier English versions did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Gen 4:1; 14:19; Deut 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root.The older versions have the translation “possess” because otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the beginning. They wanted to avoid saying that wisdom was not eternal.
…….the Greek and the Syriac versions have the meaning “create.” Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (“appointed,” “given birth”) argue for the translation of “create” or “establish”.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 14 2014,14:26) Proverbs 8 also states by Wisdom kings reign. That statement alone that Proverbs 8 is talking about the Wisdom of God and not a person.
If Proverbs 8 speaks about LITERAL wisdom, then God DID lack wisdom before He created it. Is that what you believe?Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 14 2014,14:31) Mike, Quote 8:23-26 mention how the origins of this particular “wisdom” were from ancient times. Where have we heard that before? Maybe in Micah 5:2, John 8:58, or Jude 1:25? Yes, I know of your misinterpretation of these passages. Your doctrine is not based on reason as more than one thing has old origins and say this one is the same one as that one without evidence is to speak without using reason.
You know Kerwin, it is reckless of you to claim I misinterpret those passages when we've never discussed any of them at any length.How can you just ASSUME that I am the one misinterpreting them?
For example, am I WRONG to say that Micah 5:2 speaks about a future ruler from Bethlehem whose origins are from the ancient past?
Am I WRONG that John 8:58 has Jesus claiming that he has existed before Abraham?
Am I WRONG that Jude 1:25 mentions glory being to Jesus Christ BEFORE THE AGES?
No. I'm not WRONG about any of those three things.
So it's lame for you to just blow them off with one false claim about how I misinterpret all of them.
But like I said, I was merely pointing out the many similarities for you and others. You are free to ignore them as usual.
You won't, however, be able to make them disappear from the Bible.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 14 2014,14:44) Mike, Quote 8:27-31 explain how this particular “wisdom” was a master craftsman at God's side during the creation process. Where have we heard that before? Perhaps in John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, 1 Corinthians 8:6, and Hebrews 1:2? You are probably using the Net bible's translation though some others seem to agree. The NIV and the AV of the KJV and others do not.
It is written that the ages were preferred by God's word so should it surprise you that his wisdom is called an artificer?
From NETNotes:
However, “craftsman” has the most support (LXX, Vulgate, Syriac, Targum.)Prov 8:30, Song 7:1; Jer 52:15;
Read those other verses which have the same Hebrew word, Kerwin. Even the KJV has the idea of a craftsman in Song 7:1. And the NKJV has “craftsman” in all three verses.
The NIV also has “craftsman”. I wasn't able to find the “others” you mention that don't have “craftsman”. They all either have “craftsman”, or the idea of “craftsman” – ie: “builder”, “worker”, “architect”.
I'm sure there are some that DON'T have “craftsman”, but it's not really all that important, since the vast majority of them DO have “craftsman”.
So, just ASSUME for a minute that “craftsman” IS the correct translation. How would that change your answer?
And what about Genesis 1:26? Perhaps the “US” was God talking to his literal “wisdom”?
Once again, I was merely point out the many similarities. I never expected you to let your own flawed man-made doctrine to be overwritten by the truth of the scriptures.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 04 2013,12:27) This thread is a continuation of part of a conversation between Mike and me in the Who is the Word thread. Miike wrote in response to my earlier words:
Quote Kerwin, if God chose to cause Michael the archangel to be conceived in the womb of a human woman tomorrow, could we later say about Michael: 1. He was turned into flesh? YES or NO?
2. He became flesh? YES or NO?
3. He came in the flesh? YES or NO?
4. He came in the likeness of sinful flesh? YES or NO?
5. He partook in flesh? YES or NO?
6. He was made in the likeness of a human being? YES or NO?
7. He was transformed into flesh? YES or NO?
8. He was changed into a human being? YES or NO?
9. He had two different “beginnings”? YES or NO?The only HONEST answer to all 9 questions is “YES”. So there is no contradiction in me believing that Jesus both “came in” and was “turned into” flesh.
So according to you it is honest to say that a woman both came in a dress and was transformed into a dress.
or
You believe it is honest to say both a creature transformed into a woman and her dress and came in a dress.
That is what I call nonsense.
KerwinGood post!
Quote (sonofGod @ Jan. 16 2014,19:32) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 04 2013,12:27) This thread is a continuation of part of a conversation between Mike and me in the Who is the Word thread. Miike wrote in response to my earlier words:
Quote Kerwin, if God chose to cause Michael the archangel to be conceived in the womb of a human woman tomorrow, could we later say about Michael: 1. He was turned into flesh? YES or NO?
2. He became flesh? YES or NO?
3. He came in the flesh? YES or NO?
4. He came in the likeness of sinful flesh? YES or NO?
5. He partook in flesh? YES or NO?
6. He was made in the likeness of a human being? YES or NO?
7. He was transformed into flesh? YES or NO?
8. He was changed into a human being? YES or NO?
9. He had two different “beginnings”? YES or NO?The only HONEST answer to all 9 questions is “YES”. So there is no contradiction in me believing that Jesus both “came in” and was “turned into” flesh.
So according to you it is honest to say that a woman both came in a dress and was transformed into a dress.
or
You believe it is honest to say both a creature transformed into a woman and her dress and came in a dress.
That is what I call nonsense.
KerwinGood post!
hi sonofgod and welcometell us why you think it is a good post
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2014,06:05) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 14 2014,13:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 13 2014,02:27) What PERSON is metaphorically called “the wisdom of God” in the above verse, Kerwin? Could it be the same PERSON who is metaphorically called “the wisdom of God” in Proverbs 8?
Mike,Wisdom in Proverbs 8 is a personification and not a person as by her kings reign.
Jesus is the wisdom of God in the same way the God is love. He has the attribute of Wisdom and therefore reigns by Wisdom.
Luke 7:35
New International Version (NIV)35 But wisdom is proved right by all her children.”
Your question mistakenly assumes wisdom in Proverbs 8 is a person and either yes or no is a wrong answer.
In 1 Corinthians 1:24, the PERSON called “the wisdom of God” is Jesus. This is as clear as day from the wording of the scripture.And I asked you if Proverbs 8 could be referring to the SAME PERSON as “wisdom”.
If you don't believe the “wisdom” in Proverbs 8 is a PERSON, then you could have just said, “NO”. Or you could have said, “NO, because the wisdom in Proverbs 8 is not a person at all.”
Either way, it WAS indeed a “YES” or “NO” question that I asked. Agreed?
My intention was simply to point you and others to the similarities between the things said about “wisdom” in Proverbs 8, and the things said about “Jesus” elsewhere in scripture.
You are free to ignore those similarities, just as you ignore the similarities between “the Word” in John 1, and the things said about “Jesus” elsewhere in scripture.
Mike,A no with an explanation would do.
I expect certain similarities between God's wisdom and Jesus because he personifies it.
Quote (sonofGod @ Jan. 16 2014,19:32) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 04 2013,12:27) This thread is a continuation of part of a conversation between Mike and me in the Who is the Word thread. Miike wrote in response to my earlier words:
Quote Kerwin, if God chose to cause Michael the archangel to be conceived in the womb of a human woman tomorrow, could we later say about Michael: 1. He was turned into flesh? YES or NO?
2. He became flesh? YES or NO?
3. He came in the flesh? YES or NO?
4. He came in the likeness of sinful flesh? YES or NO?
5. He partook in flesh? YES or NO?
6. He was made in the likeness of a human being? YES or NO?
7. He was transformed into flesh? YES or NO?
8. He was changed into a human being? YES or NO?
9. He had two different “beginnings”? YES or NO?The only HONEST answer to all 9 questions is “YES”. So there is no contradiction in me believing that Jesus both “came in” and was “turned into” flesh.
So according to you it is honest to say that a woman both came in a dress and was transformed into a dress.
or
You believe it is honest to say both a creature transformed into a woman and her dress and came in a dress.
That is what I call nonsense.
KerwinGood post!
Hi sonofGod,Nice to meet you and thank you.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2014,06:49) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 14 2014,14:44) Mike, Quote 8:27-31 explain how this particular “wisdom” was a master craftsman at God's side during the creation process. Where have we heard that before? Perhaps in John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, 1 Corinthians 8:6, and Hebrews 1:2? You are probably using the Net bible's translation though some others seem to agree. The NIV and the AV of the KJV and others do not.
It is written that the ages were preferred by God's word so should it surprise you that his wisdom is called an artificer?
From NETNotes:
However, “craftsman” has the most support (LXX, Vulgate, Syriac, Targum.)Prov 8:30, Song 7:1; Jer 52:15;
Read those other verses which have the same Hebrew word, Kerwin. Even the KJV has the idea of a craftsman in Song 7:1. And the NKJV has “craftsman” in all three verses.
The NIV also has “craftsman”. I wasn't able to find the “others” you mention that don't have “craftsman”. They all either have “craftsman”, or the idea of “craftsman” – ie: “builder”, “worker”, “architect”.
I'm sure there are some that DON'T have “craftsman”, but it's not really all that important, since the vast majority of them DO have “craftsman”.
So, just ASSUME for a minute that “craftsman” IS the correct translation. How would that change your answer?
And what about Genesis 1:26? Perhaps the “US” was God talking to his literal “wisdom”?
Once again, I was merely point out the many similarities. I never expected you to let your own flawed man-made doctrine to be overwritten by the truth of the scriptures.
Mike,I might have made a mistake about the NIV not using craftsman or the equivalent but I assumed it was a variation of craftsman in pointing out that it is equivalent when Scripture also states the ages were framed by God's word.
God is speaking to his host and wisdom is in his actions.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 16 2014,13:10) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2014,06:05)
If you don't believe the “wisdom” in Proverbs 8 is a PERSON, then you could have just said, “NO”. Or you could have said, “NO, because the wisdom in Proverbs 8 is not a person at all.”
Mike,A no with an explanation would do.
Hi Kerwin,Anytime I ask for a “YES” or “NO” answer, I'm not saying that's ALL you can post.
I EXPECT your “YES” or “NO” to include a REASON why.
Maybe I haven't been clear about that.
The reason I often ask for “YES” or “NO” answers is because so many times people will just start posting a rant about this, that, and the other – and by the time it's all over, I still don't know if their answer was “YES” or “NO” to what I actually asked.
I'm fine with the explanations of WHY you said “YES” or “NO” – as long as I see a clearly defined “YES” or “NO” somewhere in that post.
Otherwise, I'm just GUESSING at what your answer would have been, and it's hard to move the discussion forward if I'm not even sure what you truly think about the points that have already been brought up.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 16 2014,13:19) Mike, ……..I assumed it was a variation of craftsman in pointing out that it is equivalent when Scripture also states the ages were framed by God's word.
You are correct that it is equivalent.Here's what we know from scripture:
1a. Wisdom was the craftsman at God's side during the creation process.
1b. Jesus is called “the wisdom of God”.
2a. God framed the ages by His Word.
2b. Jesus is called “the Word of God”.
And Hebrews 1:2 links all of these hints together by coming right out and saying that God created the ages by none other than Jesus.
All these pieces fit like a glove, Kerwin. And there are many more pieces given to us in the scriptures as well. So what is it that keeps you from solving this relatively easy puzzle?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2014,09:57) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 16 2014,13:19) Mike, ……..I assumed it was a variation of craftsman in pointing out that it is equivalent when Scripture also states the ages were framed by God's word.
You are correct that it is equivalent.Here's what we know from scripture:
1a. Wisdom was the craftsman at God's side during the creation process.
1b. Jesus is called “the wisdom of God”.
2a. God framed the ages by His Word.
2b. Jesus is called “the Word of God”.
And Hebrews 1:2 links all of these hints together by coming right out and saying that God created the ages by none other than Jesus.
All these pieces fit like a glove, Kerwin. And there are many more pieces given to us in the scriptures as well. So what is it that keeps you from solving this relatively easy puzzle?
Mikeb.You have gotten that knowledge by seeking.
Dont forget: The more knowledge, the more responsibilities.
The more sorrows.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 17 2014,08:29) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2014,09:57) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 16 2014,13:19) Mike, ……..I assumed it was a variation of craftsman in pointing out that it is equivalent when Scripture also states the ages were framed by God's word.
You are correct that it is equivalent.Here's what we know from scripture:
1a. Wisdom was the craftsman at God's side during the creation process.
1b. Jesus is called “the wisdom of God”.
2a. God framed the ages by His Word.
2b. Jesus is called “the Word of God”.
And Hebrews 1:2 links all of these hints together by coming right out and saying that God created the ages by none other than Jesus.
All these pieces fit like a glove, Kerwin. And there are many more pieces given to us in the scriptures as well. So what is it that keeps you from solving this relatively easy puzzle?
Mikeb.You have gotten that knowledge by seeking.
Dont forget: The more knowledge, the more responsibilities.
The more sorrows.wakeup.
wyou are absolutely right ,
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2014,04:57) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 16 2014,13:19) Mike, ……..I assumed it was a variation of craftsman in pointing out that it is equivalent when Scripture also states the ages were framed by God's word.
You are correct that it is equivalent.Here's what we know from scripture:
1a. Wisdom was the craftsman at God's side during the creation process.
1b. Jesus is called “the wisdom of God”.
2a. God framed the ages by His Word.
2b. Jesus is called “the Word of God”.
And Hebrews 1:2 links all of these hints together by coming right out and saying that God created the ages by none other than Jesus.
All these pieces fit like a glove, Kerwin. And there are many more pieces given to us in the scriptures as well. So what is it that keeps you from solving this relatively easy puzzle?
Mike,It is plausible that Scripture credits Jesus with what the word did in order to show he personalizes the word but I do not think that is what it does.
To All……….Wisdom is not a PERSON of any kind, it is a Spiritual attribute, of Cognate thought, and anyone can have it. Wisdom is the wise use of he Knowledge we all have. It is Given by God and it is the Chief Spiritual Attribute that God uses in all his Doings. Jesus is Not Wisdom Himself, even if he has and uses the wisdom that is in him. That is why it say Christ has become the wisdom of God unto Us. Notice it say the Wisdom of GOD , to us , not the wisdom, of JESUS to us. If it is “OF” God it is God's Wisdom, not Jesus's wisdom.
peace and love to you all…………………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 17 2014,21:22) To All……….Wisdom is not a PERSON of any kind, it is a Spiritual attribute, of Cognate thought, and anyone can have it. Wisdom is the wise use of he Knowledge we all have. It is Given by God and it is the Chief Spiritual Attribute that God uses in all his Doings. Jesus is Not Wisdom Himself, even if he has and uses the wisdom that is in him. That is why it say Christ has become the wisdom of God unto Us. Notice it say the Wisdom of GOD , to us , not the wisdom, of JESUS to us. If it is “OF” God it is God's Wisdom, not Jesus's wisdom. peace and love to you all…………………………………………….gene
Gso his the son OF God
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 18 2014,02:22) To All……….Wisdom is not a PERSON of any kind, it is a Spiritual attribute, of Cognate thought, and anyone can have it. Wisdom is the wise use of he Knowledge we all have. It is Given by God and it is the Chief Spiritual Attribute that God uses in all his Doings. Jesus is Not Wisdom Himself, even if he has and uses the wisdom that is in him. That is why it say Christ has become the wisdom of God unto Us. Notice it say the Wisdom of GOD , to us , not the wisdom, of JESUS to us. If it is “OF” God it is God's Wisdom, not Jesus's wisdom. peace and love to you all…………………………………………….gene
GeneB.BY *His wisdom* created He everything.
Wisdom must have a source.
Wisdom alone with no source, can not exist.
Some Being; or a person has to *possess* that wisdom to put it into practise.wakeup.
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 17 2014,04:28) Quote (sonofGod @ Jan. 16 2014,19:32) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 04 2013,12:27) This thread is a continuation of part of a conversation between Mike and me in the Who is the Word thread. Miike wrote in response to my earlier words:
Quote Kerwin, if God chose to cause Michael the archangel to be conceived in the womb of a human woman tomorrow, could we later say about Michael: 1. He was turned into flesh? YES or NO?
2. He became flesh? YES or NO?
3. He came in the flesh? YES or NO?
4. He came in the likeness of sinful flesh? YES or NO?
5. He partook in flesh? YES or NO?
6. He was made in the likeness of a human being? YES or NO?
7. He was transformed into flesh? YES or NO?
8. He was changed into a human being? YES or NO?
9. He had two different “beginnings”? YES or NO?The only HONEST answer to all 9 questions is “YES”. So there is no contradiction in me believing that Jesus both “came in” and was “turned into” flesh.
So according to you it is honest to say that a woman both came in a dress and was transformed into a dress.
or
You believe it is honest to say both a creature transformed into a woman and her dress and came in a dress.
That is what I call nonsense.
KerwinGood post!
hi sonofgod and welcometell us why you think it is a good post
I John 4:Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
Jesus Christ is come in the flesh
The wording is clear.
Nothing about changing into flesh.
Nothing about putting on a flesh suit
Jesus Christ came in the flesh.
Matthew 1:18
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Jesus Christ had a birth, a beginning, a gennessis.
His beginning was flesh and blood
Not a transformation from spirit to flesh, but his beginning was flesh
I John 4 does not read, “God came in the flesh”
It reads, “Jesus Christ is come in the flesh”
It is that simple
Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2014,09:57) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 16 2014,13:19) Mike, ……..I assumed it was a variation of craftsman in pointing out that it is equivalent when Scripture also states the ages were framed by God's word.
You are correct that it is equivalent.Here's what we know from scripture:
1a. Wisdom was the craftsman at God's side during the creation process.
1b. Jesus is called “the wisdom of God”.
2a. God framed the ages by His Word.
2b. Jesus is called “the Word of God”.
And Hebrews 1:2 links all of these hints together by coming right out and saying that God created the ages by none other than Jesus.
All these pieces fit like a glove, Kerwin. And there are many more pieces given to us in the scriptures as well. So what is it that keeps you from solving this relatively easy puzzle?
Anything and everything that God does is wise.That includes:
1. creating the heavens and the earth
2. Having a plan for man's redemption and salvation before Adam and Eve's errors, that wise plan being Jesus Christ, the seed of the woman
3. God's words are always wise
4. Any one who takes God's word to heart and lives it is wise
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
