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Jesus did not say more glory.
But the glory *He HAD* with the Father,before the world.
The glory He had was doing God's will.
Creating all things,for his pleasure.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 04 2014,12:57) Jesus did not say more glory.
But the glory *He HAD* with the Father,before the world.
The glory He had was doing God's will.
Creating all things,for his pleasure.wakeup.
No, Wakeup, he had that glory after he would complete his ministry to fulfill God's plan. It was a done deal.Jesus is not the creator, and neither did God create the initial creation through him. God is making us in his image in the body of Christ, through his Word, that Jesus obeyed without sin unto death on the cross. The Lord is that quickening (life giving spirit).
Quote
Hbr 5:7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Hbr 5:8
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Quote
Hbr 3:4For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
Hbr 3:5
And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
Hbr 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Quote
Eph 2:20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Jan. 04 2014,12:04) Hi Mike: In response to your long post above, I would say nice try, Mike, but no, he did not say:
Quote So John 17:5 tells us that Jesus indeed HAD glory before the world began, and asked to be glorified again with that same glory There is that seemingly insignificant little word “again” that you are trying to force into the text.
And yes, he was speaking of the heavenly glory that he had from the foundation of the world it was a done deal from the beginning.
But about God giving him more glory than he asked, you post the scriptures about having a name more superior than the angels because of what he accomplished in his ministry on earth, and about his exaltation to his position as head of the church, and having a name above all names that at the name of Jesus every knee would bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God.
Ok., but now show me what glory he had with the Father before the world began so that we can see if God gave him more glory that what he asked.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty……….This is what Mike does best he forces the text to conform to his way of thinking. He doesn't realize that is exactly what Satan want him to do as he does all preexistence.s and Trinitarians ,and past Gnostic's alike.Their teachings turn Jesus a man, into a God, It is Satan who caused and instituted that DOCTRINE OF SEPARATION , that drives a “WEDGE” between Jesus, and the rest of his human brothers and sisters.
The whole concept of Jesus being different then we are “WORKS” in a subtle way, it causes people think they can not overcome or attain the way Jesus did, because it causes a mental SEPARATION to take place in the minds of men Making Jesus' existence no longer a attainable “GOAL” for humanity, why? because it teaches, Jesus was “DIFFERENT” then WE ARE. It moves our likeness away from him creating a schism it make humans think they can not attain to the “FULL” measure and stature of Christ Jesus.
It is a very clever scheme introduced into the Church by, Satan through the Gnostic's and Platonism of the Greek's of their beliefs of the multiplicity of God's and it works well. It created these false Doctrines of the Trinity and Preexistence's, It is very important to Satan that we View Jesus as “DIFFERENT” in existence then we are, because it serves to break down our Identity and connection with him, and works to drive a “WEDGE” between us and him
Even more it works to destroy GOD'S work in humanity also. God showed me a long time ago there is “ONLY” ONE TRUE GOD, all others as FALSE GODS to me that is. Jesus is no GOD at all to me , but a fellow Human Being who came into existence Just as I have through a Human Berth from a Mother. He was Perfected by the Spirit of God working “IN” him,and by it overcame the world, Just as we all can also by that same Spirit that was “IN” Jesus.
Rom 8:11….> But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell “IN” you, he shall “ALSO” quicken your “MORTAL” (dead) “BODIES” by his Spirit that “DWELLS” “IN” you.
“Notice”, it says dead bodies, not dead Spirits, why, because spirits don't die, they go back to him who gave them in the first place, so the resurrection is all about a dead physical Body being brought back to life again, not a Spirit being brought back to life.
and again…… For as many as are led by the Spirit of GOD. they “ARE” the “SONS” of GOD.
So, if i am led by the Spirit of God, can i “ALSO” Say, I am a SON of GOD?, and am I a Son of GOD as much as Jesus, another human being saying he is a SON of GOD? Yes, why? , because I don't move Jesus away from my human Identity with HIM, as all these false teachers do, Who are of the synagogues of Satan who teach this DOCTRINE OF SEPARATION
peace and love to all the ISRAEL of GOD…………………..gen
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 03 2014,19:04) Hi Mike: In response to your long post above, I would say nice try, Mike, but no, he did not say:
Quote (mikeboll @ 64) So John 17:5 tells us that Jesus indeed HAD glory before the world began, and asked to be glorified again with that same glory There is that seemingly insignificant little word “again” that you are trying to force into the text.
The word “again” is clearly implied, Marty. I could also say, based on the context, that Jesus was asking for the RETURN of a glory he used to have. I could also say he was asking for an old glory to be given BACK to him.All these thoughts are CLEARLY implied anytime someone asks for something he already HAD in the past.
Perhaps you could show me an example where someone asked for something HE HAD in the past, but WASN'T asking for the RETURN of that thing?
If you cannot, then you have no grounds to take issue with an implied meaning of “give it to me AGAIN”, “RETURN it to me”, or “give me BACK the thing I had before”.
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 03 2014,19:04) And yes, he was speaking of the heavenly glory that he had from the foundation of the world………
Close. He was speaking of the glory HE WAS HAVING in heaven BEFORE the world began.Quote (942767 @ Jan. 03 2014,19:04) But about God giving him more glory than he asked, you post the scriptures about having a name more superior than the angels because of what he accomplished in his ministry on earth, and about his exaltation to his position as head of the church, and having a name above all names that at the name of Jesus every knee would bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God. Ok., but now show me what glory he had with the Father before the world began so that we can see if God gave him more glory that what he asked.
Before the world began, Jesus had the glory of being the firstborn of every creature – the one through whom even the angels were created. (Col 1:15-16) He speaks about this past glory in John 17:24…..Father, I want those you HAVE GIVEN me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you HAVE GIVEN me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
You have agreed that Jesus was speaking about a HEAVENLY glory. Well, notice the perfect tense form of the bolded words above. Just as the disciples had ALREADY been GIVEN to Jesus at the time he spoke these words, so also that HEAVENLY glory had ALREADY been GIVEN to him before the creation of the world.
Phil 2:6 tells us Jesus was existing “in the form of God” before being made in the likeness of a human being. Surely that implies that Jesus had some glory, right?
Marty, there are more things I could list, but if you BELIEVE what the scriptures say about these things I did list, then it should be clear that Jesus had a fair amount of glory before he was made flesh.
And when you contrast the glory he used to have with the statement, “he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs”, it seems to me that while Jesus was already superior to the other angels before he became flesh, he was exalted EVEN MORE superior to them than he used to be.
Besides, he INHERITED the name above all names – which implies that, although he might have had a high name before, he didn't already have “the name above all names”.
And the fact that he BECAME worthy to open the scroll also supports this idea.
All of this is enough for me to make an educated guess that Jesus was exalted to an even HIGHER glory than the glory he left behind to do his mission on earth.
Of course, if you don't BELIEVE the scriptures that say Jesus was the firstborn of every creature, the beginning of the creation of God, and that ALL THINGS in heaven and on earth were created both through AND for him, then I don't expect you to come to the same conclusion I've come to.
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 04 2014,08:22) No, Wakeup, he had that glory after he would complete his ministry to fulfill God's plan. It was a done deal.
Basically what you're saying is that Jesus HAD that glory because he knew he was GOING TO HAVE that glory.But I bet you can't find any other reference in the scriptures, or even in secular writings, were someone spoke about something they HAD when referring to something they WERE GOING TO HAVE.
The whole concept goes AGAINST common sense, and AGAINST the most sensible way the words Jesus spoke could be understood.
Marty, what would happen if you took his words in the most LOGICAL way they could be meant? What would happen to your doctrine if you just accepted the most SENSIBLE meaning of Jesus asking for a glory he had actually HAD in heaven before the world began?
And what if you then combined that most logical meaning to the verses where Jesus point blank said he came down from heaven, and would ascend to where he was before?
And then what if you combined those things with the knowledge that all things truly WERE created through Jesus before he emptied himself to be made in the likeness of a human being?
What then, I wonder?
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 05 2014,01:22) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 04 2014,12:57) Jesus did not say more glory.
But the glory *He HAD* with the Father,before the world.
The glory He had was doing God's will.
Creating all things,for his pleasure.wakeup.
No, Wakeup, he had that glory after he would complete his ministry to fulfill God's plan. It was a done deal.Jesus is not the creator, and neither did God create the initial creation through him. God is making us in his image in the body of Christ, through his Word, that Jesus obeyed without sin unto death on the cross. The Lord is that quickening (life giving spirit).
Quote
Hbr 5:7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Hbr 5:8
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Quote
Hbr 3:4For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
Hbr 3:5
And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
Hbr 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Quote
Eph 2:20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marry.Can you tell me:
Who is this in glory?Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
wakeup.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 03 2014,22:29) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 02 2014,13:47) Mike, Quote If Michael, after the battle in heaven is done, asks God to glorify him with the glory HE HAD at the time he shouted for joy when God laid the foundations of the earth, would you assume Michael was talking about a glory he never actually HAD before? You are assuming Michael is Jesus.
Wrong again, Kerwin.I have NEVER claimed that Michael is Jesus, nor do I believe that.
And my analogy has nothing at all to do with Michael being Jesus. Here, let me change it for you, and see if I can get an actual ANSWER instead of a diversion:
If Gabriel, after delivering a message to Daniel, asked God to glorify him with the glory HE HAD at the time he shouted for joy when God laid the foundations of the earth, would you assume Gabriel was talking about a glory he never actually HAD before?
My point is that ANY TIME someone asks for something they HAD, you will automatically assume that person actually HAD that thing before. You assume this each and every time, because it is the only LOGICAL and SENSIBLE understanding of the words, “I HAD”.
And it is only in the case of John 17:5 that your personal wishes deter you from accepting this LOGICAL and SENSIBLE conclusion.
Mike,I am sorry I misunderstood your view on whether or not Jesus was Michael.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 03 2014,22:20) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 02 2014,13:15) Mike, Quote If Michael, after the battle in heaven is done, asks God to glorify him with the glory HE HAD at the time he shouted for joy when God laid the foundations of the earth, would you assume Michael was talking about a glory he never actually HAD before? According to you the word I had always imply that Jesus was with God.
Wrong. According to me, the words “I WAS HAVING” are never said by anyone who didn't actually HAVE that thing in the past.
Mike,So are you saying that Jesus may not have been with God when his glory was?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 03 2014,22:07) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 02 2014,01:33) Mike, The AV of the KJV used congregation in both passages. Psalms 74:2 is calling the whole of the nation if Israel a congregation.
Okay? ? ?I can agree that the nation of Israel, when gathered together, is a congregation/assembly. So what?
Show me when that congregation was ever in an assembly with God Himself, and God passed judgment upon them en masse.
Mike,The bible uses congregation for a group of people that are not necessarily gathered together in close proximity. That is my point. There is a uniting theme, such as being gods, or being the children of Israel.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 04 2014,16:00) Mike, The bible uses congregation for a group of people that are not necessarily gathered together in close proximity. That is my point. There is a uniting theme, such as being gods, or being the children of Israel.
So re-read Psalm 82:1, and see if it is talking about an actual assembly with God. It seems clear to me that it is.NETNotes says:
The psalmist pictures God standing in the “assembly of El” where he accuses the “gods” of failing to promote justice on earth. God pronounces sentence upon them, announcing that they will die like men. Having witnessed the scene, the psalmist then asks God to establish his just rule over the earth.This is also how I understand it.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 04 2014,15:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 03 2014,22:20) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 02 2014,13:15) Mike, Quote If Michael, after the battle in heaven is done, asks God to glorify him with the glory HE HAD at the time he shouted for joy when God laid the foundations of the earth, would you assume Michael was talking about a glory he never actually HAD before? According to you the word I had always imply that Jesus was with God.
Wrong. According to me, the words “I WAS HAVING” are never said by anyone who didn't actually HAVE that thing in the past.
Mike,So are you saying that Jesus may not have been with God when his glory was?
Don't be silly, Kerwin. If the glory was in heaven, and Jesus HAD that glory before the world began, then it stands to reason that Jesus was there to have it.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2014,04:40) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 04 2014,15:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 03 2014,22:20) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 02 2014,13:15) Mike, Quote If Michael, after the battle in heaven is done, asks God to glorify him with the glory HE HAD at the time he shouted for joy when God laid the foundations of the earth, would you assume Michael was talking about a glory he never actually HAD before? According to you the word I had always imply that Jesus was with God.
Wrong. According to me, the words “I WAS HAVING” are never said by anyone who didn't actually HAVE that thing in the past.
Mike,So are you saying that Jesus may not have been with God when his glory was?
Don't be silly, Kerwin. If the glory was in heaven, and Jesus HAD that glory before the world began, then it stands to reason that Jesus was there to have it.
Mike,That is what I said you believed and you disagreed with me.
You can have something and not be with it. For example the house I had in Europe 20 years ago does not mean the man was in Europe.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2014,04:34) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 04 2014,16:00) Mike, The bible uses congregation for a group of people that are not necessarily gathered together in close proximity. That is my point. There is a uniting theme, such as being gods, or being the children of Israel.
So re-read Psalm 82:1, and see if it is talking about an actual assembly with God. It seems clear to me that it is.NETNotes says:
The psalmist pictures God standing in the “assembly of El” where he accuses the “gods” of failing to promote justice on earth. God pronounces sentence upon them, announcing that they will die like men. Having witnessed the scene, the psalmist then asks God to establish his just rule over the earth.This is also how I understand it.
Mike,That is an interpretation but not in line with Jesus' words. I don't even think the word “promote” is in line with the Psalms itself. It is not promoting righteousness that Psalms 82 speaks of it is doing righteousness that it speaks of.
Quote How long will ye judge unjustly,
and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
Defend the poor and fatherless:
do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Deliver the poor and needy:
rid them out of the hand of the wicked.Of course Net Notes uses “” around the word “gods” and the phrase “assembly of El” so I doubt they are taking either of them as narrowly as you are. I think they are Trinitarians so they probably are speaking of human judges as that seems a popular interpretation among Trinitarians.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 05 2014,04:53) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2014,04:40) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 04 2014,15:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 03 2014,22:20) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 02 2014,13:15) Mike, Quote If Michael, after the battle in heaven is done, asks God to glorify him with the glory HE HAD at the time he shouted for joy when God laid the foundations of the earth, would you assume Michael was talking about a glory he never actually HAD before? According to you the word I had always imply that Jesus was with God.
Wrong. According to me, the words “I WAS HAVING” are never said by anyone who didn't actually HAVE that thing in the past.
Mike,So are you saying that Jesus may not have been with God when his glory was?
Don't be silly, Kerwin. If the glory was in heaven, and Jesus HAD that glory before the world began, then it stands to reason that Jesus was there to have it.
Mike,That is what I said you believed and you disagreed with me.
You can have something and not be with it. For example the house I had in Europe 20 years ago does not mean the man was in Europe.
Kwrong analogy; see it this way ;my father lives in Europe and now i say father give me back my room i had BEFORE I LEFT ,
THIS IS MORE IN LINE WITH WHAT WE DISCUSS RIGHT
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 05 2014,06:53) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 05 2014,04:53) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2014,04:40) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 04 2014,15:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 03 2014,22:20) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 02 2014,13:15) Mike, Quote If Michael, after the battle in heaven is done, asks God to glorify him with the glory HE HAD at the time he shouted for joy when God laid the foundations of the earth, would you assume Michael was talking about a glory he never actually HAD before? According to you the word I had always imply that Jesus was with God.
Wrong. According to me, the words “I WAS HAVING” are never said by anyone who didn't actually HAVE that thing in the past.
Mike,So are you saying that Jesus may not have been with God when his glory was?
Don't be silly, Kerwin. If the glory was in heaven, and Jesus HAD that glory before the world began, then it stands to reason that Jesus was there to have it.
Mike,That is what I said you believed and you disagreed with me.
You can have something and not be with it. For example the house I had in Europe 20 years ago does not mean the man was in Europe.
Kwrong analogy; see it this way ;my father lives in Europe and now i say father give me back my room i had BEFORE I LEFT ,
THIS IS MORE IN LINE WITH WHAT WE DISCUSS RIGHT
T,It sounds like you are referring to a room as being a person's because he occupies it. So how do you think that relates to the glory Jesus had with God before the world began?
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 05 2014,09:09) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 05 2014,06:53) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 05 2014,04:53) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2014,04:40) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 04 2014,15:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 03 2014,22:20) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 02 2014,13:15) Mike, Quote If Michael, after the battle in heaven is done, asks God to glorify him with the glory HE HAD at the time he shouted for joy when God laid the foundations of the earth, would you assume Michael was talking about a glory he never actually HAD before? According to you the word I had always imply that Jesus was with God.
Wrong. According to me, the words “I WAS HAVING” are never said by anyone who didn't actually HAVE that thing in the past.
Mike,So are you saying that Jesus may not have been with God when his glory was?
Don't be silly, Kerwin. If the glory was in heaven, and Jesus HAD that glory before the world began, then it stands to reason that Jesus was there to have it.
Mike,That is what I said you believed and you disagreed with me.
You can have something and not be with it. For example the house I had in Europe 20 years ago does not mean the man was in Europe.
Kwrong analogy; see it this way ;my father lives in Europe and now i say father give me back my room i had BEFORE I LEFT ,
THIS IS MORE IN LINE WITH WHAT WE DISCUSS RIGHT
T,It sounds like you are referring to a room as being a person's because he occupies it. So how do you think that relates to the glory Jesus had with God before the world began?
KLike Christ. HAD BEFORE
Kerwin ……….Let get back to the main subject her it is enough following they guys in their rabbit holes that go no where. So now lets get back to the main topic , Jesus came in the flesh and/ or was changed in the flesh I have yet to see “ANY” PROOF Jesus was ever “CHANGED into a FLESH PERSON. If any on has any please present it. Or we must assume Jesus came into being as a flesh person Just as we do by a human berth process.
Let get rid of all the “MYSTERY RELIGIOUS” Teachings of Trinitarians and Preexistences who produce not so much of a shard of PROOF, of “ANY” PRE- BERTH activity of Jesus as any kind as Sentinel being whatsoever. They only produce texts they can force to say what in fact, it is not saying, but any SOUND SOLID PROOF, NO Not so much as a TRACE of any PREEXISTENCE ACTIVITY, absolute Nothing written in any scripture, not even a shred of true evidence. You would think that would at least make them have some Kind of insecurity in what they profess as Dogmas wouldn't you? I believe their blindness os so obvious that it has to take a “DELUDING SPIRIT” to cause them to believe all those LIES, (2 Ths 2). I thank God. he has left us some, who do not buy into those LIES. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………….gene
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 04 2014,16:53) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2014,04:40) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 04 2014,15:54) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 02 2014,13:15) Mike, According to you the word I had always imply that Jesus was with God.
Wrong. According to me, the words “I WAS HAVING” are never said by anyone who didn't actually HAVE that thing in the past.
Mike,So are you saying that Jesus may not have been with God when his glory was?
Don't be silly, Kerwin. If the glory was in heaven, and Jesus HAD that glory before the world began, then it stands to reason that Jesus was there to have it.
Mike,That is what I said you believed and you disagreed with me.
That's not what you said, Kerwin. I've supersized what you actually said in the quote box above.And “NO”, the words, “I HAD” do not always imply that Jesus was with God.
But……….. The fact that Jesus was asking to be glorified IN GOD'S PRESENCE with the glory he was having IN GOD'S PRESENCE BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN indicate that Jesus was in God's presence before the world began.
And let's face it: Where else could Jesus be having that glory before the world even existed?
Also, I don't believe you've answered my question about Gabriel.
If Gabriel today asked God for the glory HE WAS HAVING at the time he shouted for joy when the foundations of the earth were laid………. would you automatically assume that Gabriel actually HAD that glory back then?
Or would you go scurrying about, trying to find other definitions of words to avoid that most obvious and logical meaning of Gabriel's words?
In other words, would you bend over backwards trying to find a way to make the words say God was HOLDING that glory for Gabriel, but Gabriel didn't really HAVE it back then?
Please give me an HONEST and DIRECT answer to this compound question.
First of all……… once again you have failed to address the things that needed to be addressed, Kerwin.
Did you re-read the psalm like I asked? And was it clear to you that God was actually STANDING in the midst of a REAL assembly of people, and rendering judgment upon them?
If so, let's stop DIVERTING the issue with things like this: The bible uses congregation for a group of people that are not necessarily gathered together in close proximity.
Because it seems abundantly clear from context that God and these others WERE in close proximity. Which forces me to ask you once again: When, in scripture, did God ever assemble directly with a large group of Israelites, and render judgment upon them for not upholding the needs of the weak, etc?
Also, I'm STILL waiting for your answer about what it means for God to tell mortal men that they would someday die LIKE men.
THOSE are the things you are supposed to be addressing.
That being said, I only posted the NETNotes info to give you an idea that I'm not the only one who understands it this way. After this post, I will try to post some information from a scholar named Michael Heiser. He is the guy who's teaching the Hebrew class that Kathi tried to encourage some of us to enroll in.
But the bottom line is that this discussion ISN'T about what Trinitarians, in general, believe about Psalm 82. Nor is it about what the NETNotes scholars believe. And it isn't even about what Michael Heiser believes.
I will, however, address your points about the NETNotes info I posted.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 04 2014,17:22) Of course Net Notes uses “” around the word “gods” and the phrase “assembly of El” so I doubt they are taking either of them as narrowly as you are. I think they are Trinitarians so they probably are speaking of human judges as that seems a popular interpretation among Trinitarians.
They also say:The present translation assumes that the Hebrew term אֱלֹהִים (’elohim, “gods”) here refers to the pagan gods who supposedly comprise El’s assembly according to Canaanite religion. THEIR VIEW
Those who reject the polemical view of the psalm prefer to see the referent as human judges or rulers (אֱלֹהִים sometimes refers to officials appointed by God, see Exod 21:6; 22:8-9; Ps 45:6) YOUR VIEW
or as angelic beings (אֱלֹהִים sometimes refers to angelic beings, see Gen 3:5; Ps 8:5). MY VIEW
But to ensure you that the NETNotes people ARE INDEED understanding the gods to be supernatural beings, here is their version of verse 7, along with their notes:
Psalm 82:7
Yet you will die like mortals 15; you will fall like all the other rulers.15 Heb “men.” The point in the context is mortality, however, not maleness.
You will die like mortals. For the concept of a god losing immortality and dying, see Isa 14:12-15, which alludes to a pagan myth in which the petty god “Shining One, son of the Dawn,” is hurled into Sheol for his hubris.
So you can see that the NETNotes scholars do indeed believe the psalm is about supernatural gods – and not men.
I will try to find and post the Michael Heiser info soon. In the meantime, please address the things in this post that I've highlighted for you as the things I want you to address.
Kerwin, here is a link to the writings of Michael Heiser on the Divine Council of God.
Give it a read, if you like.
There is a lot of information, and it is quite in depth…… which is why I haven't yet brought it up on Heaven Net.
Unfortunately, most of HN's members are still on milk when it comes to the scriptural teachings of the many gods mentioned in the Bible.
You though, are able to handle this information. If you like, after reading it, we can start a thread and discuss some of the scriptures he uses, and the claims he makes.
He has also written many other things on this subject.
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