What does it mean that Jesus came in the flesh?

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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 30 2013,10:16)

Mike……….Jesus became what was written in Scriptures and that Glory was also written there before he ever acquired it, Can't you see that?

So in your understanding, Jesus could have spoken on earth about the time in the past when he had a sword coming out of his mouth and defeated death…….. all because GOD knew beforehand that would eventually happen?

Gene, what if it is your destiny to become Jesus' right hand man in that battle against Satan? Would you KNOW about it RIGHT NOW? Would YOU, as a human being, with a human point of view, be able to speak to others about the time in the past that you helped Jesus defeat Satan and death?

Can you say these words right now: Boy, I remember with great fondness how I helped Jesus defeat Satan before the world began. ?

Of course not. Stop trying to put nonsense into the scriptures, just because the way they are written goes AGAINST your own preconceived notions of what SHOULD be.

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 30 2013,10:16)

Why would he ask for a past glory when what he was about to receive was far Superior. Jesus full well know what scripture said concerning Him and make no sense for him to ask for a lesser glory then what he was just about to receive, Right?

We know from scripture that Jesus knew he would die and be raised again. We know that Jesus knew he would come back to earth with much glory and power.

What we DON'T know from scripture is that Jesus had any inkling he would receive an even greater glory than the one he left to be made in the likeness of a human being.

But let's just assume, for argument's sake, that Jesus DID know that he was going to be exalted to an even higher place in heaven than the place he left when he was made flesh. Would Jesus be presumptuous enough to ASK God for this higher esteem and glory? Let's see:

Luke 14
8 “When someone invites you to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for a person more distinguished than you may have been invited.

9 If so, the host who invited both of you will come and say to you, ‘Give this person your seat.’ Then, humiliated, you will have to take the least important place.

10 But when you are invited, take the lowest place, so that when your host comes, he will say to you, ‘Friend, move up to a better place.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all the other guests.

11 For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

What does that parable tell you about the answer, Gene? Would Jesus have been presumptuous enough to ask for the seat of honor God had waiting for him…….. even IF he did know about it ahead of time?

December 30, 2013 at 6:49 pm#365019

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Quote (942767 @ Dec. 30 2013,11:25)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 31 2013,03:22)

Read verse 24 that you quoted for that answer, Marty. If Jesus was talking about the same kind of glory in verse 22 that he was talking about in verses 5 and 24, there would be no need for Jesus to hope they can be where he is, and behold that HEAVENLY glory.

Understand? The apostles wouldn't have to go anywhere to behold his EARTHLY glory. So he was APPARENTLY not talking about his EARTHLY glory in verse 5 and 24, right?

No, Mike, I have what he has promised me by faith, and it is the same principle that he used in stating:

Quote

Jhn 17:4

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Jhn 17:5

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Marty, why do you suppose Jesus' hope was for the disciples to be where he was in order to see that glory he was talking about?

Do you suppose it is because it was the SAME EXACT glory the disciples had already seen in him on earth? YES or NO?

Quote (942767 @ Dec. 30 2013,11:25)

And, you have not shown me where the scriptures state that God gave him more glory than he asked?

I pointed you to my post to Gene. Did you read it? Or would you like me to copy and paste the exact same thing to you?

December 30, 2013 at 6:52 pm#365020

Blocked

Marty and Gene and Kerwin,

I find it ridiculous that this discussion is now encompassing many teachings from many scriptures – when the simple point remains that Jesus couldn't have spoken about a glory HE WAS HAVING before the world began unless he was actually HAVING that glory before the world began.

This is a no-brainer, and it's clear that all these other “points” you are attempting to make are only DIVERSIONS away from that first, simple truth.

December 30, 2013 at 8:09 pm#365023

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 30 2013,23:52)

Marty and Gene and Kerwin,

This is a no-brainer, and it's clear that all these other “points” you are attempting to make are only DIVERSIONS away from that first, simple truth.

Mike,

Newsflash! Insisting something is true with evidence and contrary to the evidence does not make it true.

Ignoring the context of a sentence or phrase because it does not fit with your preconceived notions does not make your claim true either.

December 30, 2013 at 8:15 pm#365024

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 30 2013,21:38)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 28 2013,13:40)

Mike,

Quote (mikeboll @ 64)

Verse 1: When did God ever preside in a huge assembly of human god prophets, and pass judgment on them?

I do not believe God is speaking to the prophets who merely convey his word. He was speaking to the children of Israel who received his word as their law.

He always presides over the assembly of humans and he always judges their hearts. That is why we are under the Wrath of God.

Okay. When in scripture did God assemble together with the entire nation of Israel, and render upon them judgments for their lack of defending the fatherless, poor, and oppressed?

Mike,

Quite often. That is why he appointed prophets to warn of his wrath. For example:

Isaiah 1:16-17
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

16 Wash you, make you clean;
put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes;
cease to do evil; 17 learn to do well;
seek judgment, relieve the oppressed,
judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

December 30, 2013 at 9:07 pm#365028

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 30 2013,22:51)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 29 2013,18:58)

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 30 2013,06:50)

……..He had glory with God before the world was.

Wakeup,

…..he was asking God for his glory that God had already prepared for him before the word began.

……….he was foreknown to receive that glory.

It's easy to see that Wakeup, in this case, is understanding Jesus' words in the most logical and sensible way they could be taken.

And Kerwin, on the other hand, has completely TWISTED the meaning of the words Jesus actually said, by adding his own words and rationalizations into the words Jesus actually spoke.

Kerwin, Jesus did NOT say the words, “the glory I was foreknown to receive”. Nor did he say the words, “the glory you had already prepared for me“.

You scurry, scamper, twist, and imagine these other words INTO the words Jesus actually spoke. That is bad business for anyone seeking the TRUTH of the scriptures.

Mike,

Those phrase are just ways of expressing the idea “I had”. You still seem not to be able to grasp the idea that God knew us before the world began even though we had not existed.

Inserting one of the three base meanings for the Koine Greek equivalent you have.

And now, O Father, (give me the judgement) with thine own self with the (judgement) which I had with thee before the world was.

Even though it may be technically true I do not see God as having an opinion as all he speaks are facts. View did not seem to fit though the sentence can be structure so it does.

The base meaning of both Doxazo and Doxa seems to be.

Quote

opinion, judgment, view
opinion, estimate, whether good or bad concerning someone

in the NT always a good opinion concerning one, resulting in praise, honour, and glory

It also has other means that were associated with that according to the cultures that took part in the evolution of Koine Greek. I do not find that they fit but you will probably disagree.

glory has basically the same meaning as long as Doxa and Doxazo are used in the sense of good opinion.

December 30, 2013 at 9:15 pm#365031

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 30 2013,22:38)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 29 2013,18:34)

Wakeup,

Jesus had glory that was with God before the beginning of the world.
Jesus had not yet been given that glory as he was only then asking to be given it.

This is what I meant by “scurrying” and “scampering”, Kerwin.

Your first sentence speaks about a glory Jesus HAD, but then you scurry, scamper, and rationalize to the point that your second sentence actually DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS your first one.

Look at your words:

1. Jesus had glory……..

2. Jesus had not yet been given that glory………

He either HAD it, or he DIDN'T.

He says he HAD it, and so I believe HIM – not you.

Mike,

Now use the mind God gave you to determine how what I said does contradict.

December 30, 2013 at 9:23 pm#365035

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 30 2013,07:35)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 30 2013,06:34)

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 30 2013,01:27)

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self
***with the glory which I had with thee before the world
was***.

HE HAD GLORY WITH GOD **BEFORE THE WORLD WAS**.
***HE*** HAD GLORY.
THE WORD IS A **HE**. NOT JUST VIBRATIONS OF WORDS SPOKEN BY GOD.

wakeup.

Wakeup,

Jesus had glory that was with God before the beginning of the world.
Jesus had not yet been given that glory as he was only then asking to be given it.

TAKE A LOT OF EXPLANATION TO MAKE A TRUTH OF GOD FALSE IS N IT

The explanation is only for those who choose not to believe. Those that believe need none as God will reveal the truth to them when the time right.

December 31, 2013 at 1:39 am#365043

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 30 2013,13:09)

Mike,

Newsflash! Insisting something is true with evidence and contrary to the evidence does not make it true.

Ignoring the context of a sentence or phrase because it does not fit with your preconceived notions does not make your claim true either.

Kerwin,

You're such a knucklehead sometimes.

It's like the evidence says, “George Washington was the first President of the U.S.”

And you don't LIKE the fact that George Washington was the first President of the U.S., and so try to find UNRELATED evidence that talks about prime minsters, kings, and czars……… as a DIVERSION.

And then I point out this evidence, that evidence, and even some more evidence, and tell you to stop diverting from the point at hand, which is a simple and provable point.

And then your response is: Newsflash! Insisting something is true does not make it true! :laugh:

But the fact is that I don't have to “insist” on anything. The truth is right there for all SANE people to see. And the fact that YOU, for your own PERSONAL REASONS, don't WANT to see it, is really of no consequence to me.

And the FACTS of this matter is that Jesus spoke about the glory HE WAS HAVING………….. IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD………. BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN.

End of story.

December 31, 2013 at 1:42 am#365044

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 30 2013,13:15)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 30 2013,21:38)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 28 2013,13:40)

Mike,

Quote (mikeboll @ 64)

Verse 1: When did God ever preside in a huge assembly of human god prophets, and pass judgment on them?

I do not believe God is speaking to the prophets who merely convey his word. He was speaking to the children of Israel who received his word as their law.

He always presides over the assembly of humans and he always judges their hearts. That is why we are under the Wrath of God.

Okay. When in scripture did God assemble together with the entire nation of Israel, and render upon them judgments for their lack of defending the fatherless, poor, and oppressed?

Mike,

Quite often. That is why he appointed prophets to warn of his wrath. For example:

Isaiah 1:16-17
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

I'm sorry Kerwin. I didn't read in your passage where God assembled with a huge assembly of Israelites, and passed judgment on them en masse.

Perhaps you could point out that part for me. Or maybe a different scripture where God ASSEMBLED in a great ASSEMBLY with these “man-gods”.

December 31, 2013 at 1:47 am#365046

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 30 2013,14:07)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 30 2013,22:51)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 29 2013,18:58)

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 30 2013,06:50)

……..He had glory with God before the world was.

Wakeup,

…..he was asking God for his glory that God had already prepared for him before the word began.

……….he was foreknown to receive that glory.

It's easy to see that Wakeup, in this case, is understanding Jesus' words in the most logical and sensible way they could be taken.

And Kerwin, on the other hand, has completely TWISTED the meaning of the words Jesus actually said, by adding his own words and rationalizations into the words Jesus actually spoke.

Kerwin, Jesus did NOT say the words, “the glory I was foreknown to receive”. Nor did he say the words, “the glory you had already prepared for me“.

You scurry, scamper, twist, and imagine these other words INTO the words Jesus actually spoke. That is bad business for anyone seeking the TRUTH of the scriptures.

Mike,

Those phrase are just ways of expressing the idea “I had”. You still seem not to be able to grasp the idea that God knew us before the world began even though we had not existed.

Inserting one of the three base meanings for the Koine Greek equivalent you have.

And now, O Father, (give me the judgement) with thine own self with the (judgement) which I had with thee before the world was.

Even though it may be technically true I do not see God as having an opinion as all he speaks are facts. View did not seem to fit though the sentence can be structure so it does.

The base meaning of both Doxazo and Doxa seems to be.

Quote

opinion, judgment, view
opinion, estimate, whether good or bad concerning someone

in the NT always a good opinion concerning one, resulting in praise, honour, and glory

It also has other means that were associated with that according to the cultures that took part in the evolution of Koine Greek. I do not find that they fit but you will probably disagree.

glory has basically the same meaning as long as Doxa and Doxazo are used in the sense of good opinion.

More nonsensical diversions.

Everyone………. Look at Kerwin scampering about for other meanings of the word “doxa”! Look at him scurrying all over the place trying ANYTHING to make John 17:5 NOT say what it so clearly DOES say.

Kerwin, what if it simply means the most LOGICAL thing those words could mean? What if it simply means Jesus was asking for the return of a glory he had in heaven before the world began?

Then what?

Oh, but you can't ALLOW that to be the case, can you? Your flawed, man-made doctrine will FORCE you to keep scurrying and scampering about, won't it?

December 31, 2013 at 1:51 am#365047

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Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 30 2013,14:23)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 30 2013,07:35)

kerwin,Dec. wrote:

TAKE A LOT OF EXPLANATION TO MAKE A TRUTH OF GOD FALSE IS N IT

The explanation is only for those who choose not to believe.

Yep. The long and extravagant explanations are for those who choose not to believe the most sensible and logical meaning of the words Jesus spoke.

December 31, 2013 at 4:23 pm#365068

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 31 2013,11:51)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 30 2013,14:23)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 30 2013,07:35)

kerwin,Dec. wrote:

TAKE A LOT OF EXPLANATION TO MAKE A TRUTH OF GOD FALSE IS N IT

The explanation is only for those who choose not to believe.

Yep. The long and extravagant explanations are for those who choose not to believe the most sensible and logical meaning of the words Jesus spoke.

Mike………Kinda like you and others do with John 1:1, right ?,you can't see it, just as it is written, you must change the word, “word”, to mean a person, instead of its “simple” meaning, right?, not only that, you also force the text to say Jesus was a God, when scripture says there is “NO” God, But “ONE”. you have no problem ignoring those scripture in there “SIMPLEST” Form it seems.

So i would not be talking about Kerwin if i were you brother, With all the scriptures you guys twist and alter to fit you Dogmas. IMO

peace and love to yuo and yours…………………….gene

December 31, 2013 at 4:50 pm#365069

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 31 2013,04:35)

Can you say these words right now: Boy, I remember with great fondness how I helped Jesus defeat Satan before the world began. ?

Of course not. Stop trying to put nonsense into the scriptures, just because the way they are written goes AGAINST your own preconceived notions of what SHOULD be.

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 30 2013,10:16)

We know from scripture that Jesus knew he would die and be raised again. We know that Jesus knew he would come back to earth with much glory and power.

What we DON'T know from scripture is that Jesus had any inkling he would receive an even greater glory than the one he left to be made in the likeness of a human being.

Luke 14
8 “When someone invites you to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for a person more distinguished than you may have been invited.

9 If so, the host who invited both of you will come and say to you, ‘Give this person your seat.’ Then, humiliated, you will have to take the least important place.

11 For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Mike……..How could anyone speak about something that has not happened yet , Jesus was about to recieve a Prophesied Glory to be given Him, reserved in Heaven BY GOD for him sense the foundations of the earth He simply had it is that sense, and was ready to receive it. Why is that difficult for you to understand , it is easy for anyone that does not have a pas conviction implanted into their mind set, to understand.

Then you take and give us an example of some future event given in symbolic form, and say I can say it already happened , No i can't, But i can say it will actually happen though because it is a Prophetic event, so it is a future event that will take place, and because it is written in scripture, it is sure to happen, Just as the Glory Jesus' was about receive was Prophesied for him, he well knew it, and he was asking for it.

Now Mike if God the Father had in mind for me to be Jesus' right hand man and defeat Satan, you could take it to the Bank , it would actually happen. But to say i all ready happened would be false , Just as you are saying Jesus already was “HAVING” in a Past time as a Preexistence Being the Glory he was about to receive. You getting your Prophesied things mixed up with Past events if you ask me. IMO

peace and love……………………….gene

December 31, 2013 at 5:06 pm#365070

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 31 2013,09:23)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 31 2013,11:51)

Yep. The long and extravagant explanations are for those who choose not to believe the most sensible and logical meaning of the words Jesus spoke.

So i would not be talking about Kerwin if i were you brother, With all the scriptures you guys twist and alter to fit you Dogmas. IMO

peace and love to yuo and yours…………………….gene

I do understand John 1:1 “just how it's written”, Gene. The many uses of masculine personal pronouns support the understanding that “the Word” is a person – as does the rest of the chapter, which makes it clear John was talking about Jesus.

Look at verse 17, Gene. Although John wrote about the same subject for the first 18 verses, in verse 17 he begins to call this subject “Jesus Christ”, instead of “the Word”.

So focus on verses 16 and 17. In 16, John tells us that we received grace from “the Word”, and in 17, he tells us we received that grace from “Jesus Christ”.

So even if you are oblivious to the many obvious clues in the first 15 verses that the Word is Jesus, the transition from “the Word” in verse 16 to “Jesus Christ” in verse 17 should be enough to set you right.

Also, Jesus is called a god in many verses, including Isaiah 9:6, John 1:18, and Hebrews 1:8. So the fact that John calls him a god in John 1:1 actually aligns with other scriptures.

On the other hand, because of personal wishes, you are forced to speak nonsense about God hanging out with His own spoken words in the beginning. Imagine this scenario:

“Hey Ma, we're going to run down to the store.”

“Who's we?”

“Oh, I'm taking my word along with me, and that's why I said we.”

See how nonsensical that analogy is, Gene? Nobody in the history of the world has EVER said any nonsense like that.

Yet you would have us believe that nonsense is normal – just to satisfy your own personal wishes for Jesus to have been nothing but a regular old human being like you. And what's worse is that this wish of yours stems from your SELFISH desires for Jesus to have been just like you so YOU feel more empowered to accomplish the things he did.

I'm sure there's a name for such a complex that compels you to lower someone else so that you can feel as great as he was – but I can't think of it.

December 31, 2013 at 5:24 pm#365071

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 31 2013,09:50)

…..i can say it will actually happen though becasue it is a Prophetic event so it is a future event that will take place, and because it is written in scripture it is sure to happen……….

Gene,

Do you see the words I supersized? None of those FUTURE TENSE words align with the IMPERFECT TENSE “I was having” that Jesus spoke in John 17:5.

You want Jesus to have said these things:

Give me the glory YOU were holding for me

Give me the glory I was DESTINED to someday receive

Give me the glory that YOU knew I already had before the world began

But Jesus DIDN'T say any of those things, Gene. Instead, he asked for the glory HE HAD before the world began. And you cannot twist the words, “the glory I HAD” into any of those other things.

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 31 2013,09:50)

Just as the Glory Jesus' was about receive was Prophesied for him, and he was asking for it.

See what I mean? Jesus did NOT say, “Give me the glory that was prophesied for me to someday receive”. See how you have to TWIST the words “I HAD”, in order to “trick” the scripture into teaching what you WANT it to teach?

Do you think that is a sound and honest practice? I don't.

December 31, 2013 at 6:05 pm#365074

Participant

Mike…….. So in your system of reasoning You actually believe Jesus did not know the Glory laid down for him, written clearly in scriptures right?, How dumb is that Mike ?.

Well tell us then. If I WAS TO HAVE something, by way of PROPHESY, then WHO was I EVER “HAVING” or “HAD” it WITH before it ever HAPPENED, NOT MYSELF, that is for sure , it was “WITH” GOD, as written in his , “PROPHETIC” WORDS given through the prophets, and I do believe Jesus full well understood His position and Glory in all that. Did that fly over you head MIKE, or can you understand it? Another thing the word “WAS” is not even in that scripture Mike you added it to shore up your personal dogmas of a preexisting Jesus.

“O” and Mike……….Hears one you still have not addressed we know that there is no idol in the world and that there is “NO” God , but “ONE” . would love to hear you commits on that, filtered through your “EMPHATIC” or “EMPATHETIC” system of reasoning's. Talking about “LET BE HONEST” Now there a good one for you.

peace and love……………………………………gene

December 31, 2013 at 6:39 pm#365075

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 01 2014,03:24)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 31 2013,09:50)

Just as the Glory Jesus' was about receive was Prophesied for him, and he was asking for it.

Do you think that is a sound and honest practice? I don't.

Mike ……Firt of all where did a Say Jesus did say that, i was just giving you and example of what i perceive that about what Jesus was asking for. But to try to imply i actually say scripture writes it that way is a false accusation of me. Because i never said that. But then that is how you try so desperately to discredit others right Mike, and then to say “do I think that is a sound and honest practice”?

Yes i do if it get across the point I and others here are trying to make. The only misrepresent what is said was you by saying, I was saying it is “written” that way in scriptures. That is dishonest and deceptive on you part Mike, not mine. I was simply showing how I perceive it to mean Mike.

You say I am trying to Make Jesus an ordinary Human being, so I can feel whatever, is totally false, I Believe Jesus was a pure human being , who was Perfected by God, from human Stock and was the First from human stock, to accomplish what God has in Mind for us all. It glorify's God's work in humanity, it shows God's intent for us all, It shows how God can take an ordinary Man and glorify him and give him eternal life, It Honors Jesus as the FIRST to achieve that Goal with God the Father, It is an “encouragement”, to all humanity.

But your false view moves Jesus away from his human brothers and sisters, Makes him “SEPARATE” for us all, “DIFFERENT” then we are, So while He could attain, we can not because, He was “DIFFERENT”, then we are, in your view, and for Him to say to all who “OVERCOME” “AS” I have means “nothing” to you and those who believe like you, why because you see Jesus as “DIFFERENT”,and in that way you and those like you “PUSH” Jesus away from the rest of his brother and sisters. Your “Doctrine of Separation”, and Jesus being a God is nothing but A LIE It is the work of a DELUDING SPIRIT sent from God himself, that blinds the eyes of those who “LOVE NOT THE TRUTH”, IMO

peace and love………………………………gene

December 31, 2013 at 7:01 pm#365076

Wakeup

Participant

A question for GeneB.
Please clarify.

Who was melchisedek?
Was he not a living being without beginning
of life and no end of life?
Was he not the king of salem(peace),
and righteousness?
The high priest for ever?

wakeup.

December 31, 2013 at 8:47 pm#365081