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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 26 2013,08:05) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 23 2013,20:01) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 24 2013,10:56) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 21 2013,09:48) Mike……..So i can also say the Glory I had with the Father before the world began right?
You could only say it if you actually HAD glory before the world began, Gene. Did you?Also, don't forget that it is literally, “the glory I WAS HAVING”.
Hi Mike:He had that glory by the following principle:
Quote
Rom 4:17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Quote
Jhn 17:24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Love in Christ,
Marty
No Marty. One cannot speak of something they HAD – unless they actually HAD that thing in the past.You can PRETEND your claim makes a lick of sense – along with Kerwin and Gene…… but it never will. Nor do the scriptures you posted actually support what you claim.
Mike, he had it from the foundation of the earth because it was a done deal from the beginning. God knew that a precise moment in history that Jesus would come forth and fulfill his ministry, and that he would be glorified to his present position.It was the same with Abraham. God said to him “I have made you the Father of many nations”. Yet, at that time, he did not have any children, but it was a done deal, was it not?
Isaac was the promised child through whom, that is his lineage, the promised Messiah would come forth. It was a done deal.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 27 2013,21:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 26 2013,08:28) Agreed. But having glory RESERVED for us is NOT the same thing as us HAVING that glory before the world began. We can't ask God to give us the glory WE WERE HAVING BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN – because none of us were actually HAVING that glory BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN.
Mike…….Why would it not be the same thing as Having it already, can God LIE?, If Jesus was in his Plan from the beginning of the foundations of the earth, it was a done deal, just as, It was a done deal for Cyrus, 200 years before his berth, for John the baptist before his berth, for Moses before his berth, for the Prophet Jeremiah before his berth, for Jesus before his berth, for us before our berth also. How is that so hard for you to comprehend Mike? Come on you can understand that.Jesus was in his plan and will also and so was his Glory he was to receive , and Jesus never said he was Having it “already” before as a sentinel being, before he existed on this earth. That is your rendition, to keep alive you belief of His preexistence, as a God.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
gnot all things are in Gods mind
Jer 19:5 They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.
if your heart lays into one direction only things in that direction will enter your mind ,
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 26 2013,00:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 26 2013,03:37)
Kerwin,Are you continuing to insist that the word of God didn't come to angels – after I just posted one scripture that proves you wrong – and pointed you to a second one?
Did you read Rev 1:1 like I asked you to?
Mike,Revelation 1:1 does not support you……….
Yeah Kerwin……… it DOES. Just like the scripture where the word of God came to Gabriel supports me.Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 26 2013,00:26) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 26 2013,03:52) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 24 2013,12:34) This allows him to give a person a “gift” before the person comes to exist.
But it doesn't allow that person to say they WERE HAVING that gift before they actually had it.
Mike,Actually it does as it is theirs and none others.
Okay Kerwin.Let's say your rich uncle has left you a million dollars, that you can take possession of when you turn 65 years old.
Let's say you are now only 40 years old. Do you actually HAVE that million dollars? Can you go buy a house with it?
Can you turn 65 and say, “Give to me now the million dollars I HAD when I was 40″ ?
No, no, and no are the only honest answers to those questions.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 26 2013,00:38) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 26 2013,03:47)
Interesting. What about John 17:24? It is part of the same passage. Where do you think Jesus wants them be with him – so they can see that glory God has given him? In God's presence in heaven? Or on earth, away from God?
Mike,Jesus is talking of the believers in general by that point as he switched to them in verse 20. He is also talking about believers being in him and he in them. I am prone to think he is asking that believers be with him spiritually.
John 17
13 “I am coming to you now………….24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
You are being willfully ignorant, Kerwin.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 27 2013,09:56) Mike…….Why would it not be the same thing as Having it already, can God LIE?,
What are you talking about? What part of what I'm saying means God lied?
Gene, Marty, and Kerwin:
You guys can “rationalize” this until the cows come home. But the fact will ALWAYS remain that no one can ever speak of something he HAD in the past, unless he actually HAD that thing in the past.
And Jesus is asking for the glory HE WAS HAVING before the world began.
That means he WAS HAVING that glory before the world began.
And the fact that he uses the Greek word “para” in parallel is even more telling.
He is asking to be glorified IN GOD'S PRESENCE (para) with the glory he had IN GOD'S PRESENCE (para) before the world began.
End of story. Rationalize until your hearts are content…….. but you'll never change the FACTS of the words Jesus actually said. And you'll never change the FACT that this is but one scripture out of 50 that speaks of Jesus' preexistence.
Quote (942767 @ Dec. 27 2013,10:51) Mike, he had it from the foundation of the earth because it was a done deal from the beginning.
Marty,Instead of rationalizing the crap out of this thing to FORCE it to align with your false, man-made doctrine – what if the words just meant the most likely thing those words could mean? What if they simply meant that Jesus had glory in God's presence before the world began?
Then we could come to an equally sensible understanding of scriptures like these:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God…….. and the Word became flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.
have the same mindset as Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped; rather, he made himself nothing by taking on the form of a servant – being made in human likeness.
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
“Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
Does this offend you? Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
Through the Word all things were made……….
For through him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
These are but the tip of the iceberg, Marty. There are many more scriptures that support the ones I quoted.
But you have to take that first step, and accept ONE of them in the most sensible way it could be taken. You guys spend all of your time and efforts trying to rationalize away the most sensible meaning of ALL OF THESE teachings. You can't just rationalize away one of them. You do it to about 40 different scriptures. Doesn't that bother you? Doesn't it make you wonder – when you have to put aside the most sensible meaning of so many scriptures, and swap it out with nonsensical rationalizations?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 27 2013,12:51) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 27 2013,09:56) Mike…….Why would it not be the same thing as Having it already, can God LIE?,
What are you talking about? What part of what I'm saying means God lied?Gene, Marty, and Kerwin:
You guys can “rationalize” this until the cows come home. But the fact will ALWAYS remain that no one can ever speak of something he HAD in the past, unless he actually HAD that thing in the past.
And Jesus is asking for the glory HE WAS HAVING before the world began.
That means he WAS HAVING that glory before the world began.
And the fact that he uses the Greek word “para” in parallel is even more telling.
He is asking to be glorified IN GOD'S PRESENCE (para) with the glory he had IN GOD'S PRESENCE (para) before the world began.
End of story. Rationalize until your hearts are content…….. but you'll never change the FACTS of the words Jesus actually said. And you'll never change the FACT that this is but one scripture out of 50 that speaks of Jesus' preexistence.
Amen and Amen!
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 27 2013,23:38) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 26 2013,00:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 26 2013,03:37)
Kerwin,Are you continuing to insist that the word of God didn't come to angels – after I just posted one scripture that proves you wrong – and pointed you to a second one?
Did you read Rev 1:1 like I asked you to?
Mike,Revelation 1:1 does not support you……….
Yeah Kerwin……… it DOES. Just like the scripture where the word of God came to Gabriel supports me.
Mike,The message from God was communicated to John by an angels, that is why angels are called messengers. Is Jesus speaking about those who are given messages when he states those to whom the word of God came. If so then it covers all of the ones that communicated a message of God's.
Though it never states the word of the Lord came to any angel in Scripture it does state it came to a number of the Prophets in the OT. Those Prophets did communicate the message to others even in some cases when it was addressed to them. So you can support you conclusion with the idea that since human messengers are said to have the word of God come to them so to can it be said of angel messengers.
Of course Scripture does literally state it about human messengers so you need an argument to support your conclusion. You have no way to eliminate humans.
When humans received the Word through the intercession of angels you could also say the word of God came to the angels and they delivered it to the humans so that the humans could obey it. Angels do not need to receive the word of God in order to obey it and the Law is for the disobedient.
His words to those that received the word are.
Psalm 82:2-5
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)2 How long will ye judge unjustly,
and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless:
do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy:
rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand;
they walk on in darkness:
all the foundations of the earth are out of course.Is he speaking to those who are obedient or those who are servants of sin?
Are these addressed to the angels of God or to the children of Israel?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 27 2013,23:43) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 26 2013,00:38) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 26 2013,03:47)
Interesting. What about John 17:24? It is part of the same passage. Where do you think Jesus wants them be with him – so they can see that glory God has given him? In God's presence in heaven? Or on earth, away from God?
Mike,Jesus is talking of the believers in general by that point as he switched to them in verse 20. He is also talking about believers being in him and he in them. I am prone to think he is asking that believers be with him spiritually.
John 17
13 “I am coming to you now………….24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
You are being willfully ignorant, Kerwin.
Mike,You are skipping a lot of content to connect those two. “I am” is probably continuous as with “I am with you always”. I have not bothered to confirm that as Jesus states “I in them” and “they also may be one in us”.
In context
John 17:20-24
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.The other passage I am referencing is:
Matthew 28:16-20
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 27 2013,23:40) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 26 2013,00:26) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 26 2013,03:52) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 24 2013,12:34) This allows him to give a person a “gift” before the person comes to exist.
But it doesn't allow that person to say they WERE HAVING that gift before they actually had it.
Mike,Actually it does as it is theirs and none others.
Okay Kerwin.Let's say your rich uncle has left you a million dollars, that you can take possession of when you turn 65 years old.
Let's say you are now only 40 years old. Do you actually HAVE that million dollars? Can you go buy a house with it?
Can you turn 65 and say, “Give to me now the million dollars I HAD when I was 40″ ?
No, no, and no are the only honest answers to those questions.
Mike,Let us instead say I was a elder son whose younger brother had already claimed his inheritance before our father had died and run off and wasted it. Then poverty stricken he returned and our father through a party for him. I became offended at this and my father spoke to me stating”all that I have is thine”. Is my father correct? Is it still mine if my father wills it to me before I am conceived because he knows I will come be?
Reference:
Luke 15:11-32
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)11 And he said, A certain man had two sons: 12 and the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. 13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living. 14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want. 15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him. 17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father’s have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, 19 and am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. 20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. 21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. 22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 23 and bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 24 for this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing. 26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound. 28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him. 29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: 30 but as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf. 31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. 32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 27 2013,13:27) Though it never states the word of the Lord came to any angel in Scripture………
Are you blind, Kerwin? Or just being willfully ignorant, as is your norm?Daniel 9:23 NRSV ©
At the beginning of your supplications a word went out, and I have come to declare it, for you are greatly beloved. So consider the word and understand the vision:Kerwin, who did the “word” come out from?
Could Gabriel have acted on his own, without first receiving that “word” from God?
You act as if God doesn't have to instruct His angels about anything, because whatever God knows, they also know. Is that what you believe? If not, then God DOES give commands and instructions to His angels, right? And if that is the case, the “word of God” DOES come to angels, right?
Revelation 1
1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must happen very soon. He made it clear by sending his angel to his servant John,2 who then testified to everything that he saw concerning the word of God……….
So “the word of God” came FROM God TO Jesus, who then passed it on to one of God's angels, who then passed it on to John. John then testified to everything concerning that “word of God” that FIRST came to angels.
So the whole thing started with God. Now, did Jesus and Jesus' angel already KNOW everything God was about to show John? Was God even needed, since all the angles know everything God knows? Because that's how you make it sound.
If that is NOT the way you understand it, then you must know that GOD knows all things, and then relays certain things TO His angels. And that means “the word of God” comes TO God's angels.
The only other option is that the word of God doesn't ever need to come to angels, because they already know as much as God knows. But 1 Peter 1:12 puts an end to that thought, right?
So perhaps we should start a thread on Psalm 82 for discussion. But before we go that far, consider these things:
Verse 1: When did God ever preside in a huge assembly of human god prophets, and pass judgment on them?
Verses 6 and 7: What sense would it make for God to tell MEN that they were going to die LIKE MEN?
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 27 2013,13:27) Is he speaking to those who are obedient or those who are servants of sin?
Are these addressed to the angels of God or to the children of Israel?
He is obviously speaking of those who were disobedient – hence He renders judgment upon them.But since when are all angels of God obedient, Kerwin? Have you never heard of Satan and his angels?
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 27 2013,13:38) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 27 2013,23:43) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 26 2013,00:38) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 26 2013,03:47)
Interesting. What about John 17:24? It is part of the same passage. Where do you think Jesus wants them be with him – so they can see that glory God has given him? In God's presence in heaven? Or on earth, away from God?
Mike,Jesus is talking of the believers in general by that point as he switched to them in verse 20. He is also talking about believers being in him and he in them. I am prone to think he is asking that believers be with him spiritually.
John 17
13 “I am coming to you now………….24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
You are being willfully ignorant, Kerwin.
Mike,You are skipping a lot of content to connect those two.
Oh brother! May God have mercy on your argumentative soul, Kerwin.Okay. Why don't YOU just tell us what Jesus meant when he said, “And now Father, glorify me WITH YOU…..”.
Remember that Jesus knew he was about to go back to the Father when he said those words.
So tell us what the “WITH YOU” part meant.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 27 2013,13:47) I became offended at this and my father spoke to me stating”all that I have is thine”. Is my father correct? Is it still mine if my father wills it to me before I am conceived because he knows I will come be?
Only IF you can personally take POSSESSION of the things your father is saying are “yours” will you be able to say you HAVE those things.The phrase, “all I have is yours” can either mean that these things WILL be left to you WHEN I die and no longer need them……… or it can mean that I will give you whatever is in MY OWN possession to help you out if you need me to.
If I tell my son, “All I have is yours”, it DOESN'T mean that my son immediately OWNS my car, or house, or even my computer. I still POSSESS those things, and therefore am the ONLY one who actually HAS them. They don't get transferred to my son's name just because I made that statement.
Consider:
1 Peter 1:4
and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you,Does Peter believe we already HAVE that inheritance of “praise, glory and honor” (verse 7)? Or is this inheritance being KEPT for us in heaven?
Kerwin, you will argue the gnat right out of a discussion, while swallowing down the entire camel.
I don't have the time or patience for it anymore. Jesus said he wanted the glory HE WAS HAVING IN GOD'S PRESENCE BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN.
And that means Jesus HAD glory in God's presence before the world began. This would be before he “became flesh” and was “made in the likeness of a human being”. It would be at the time that “all things, in heaven and on earth, were created through him and for him”. It would be before he “came DOWN from heaven to do the will of He who sent him”. And before he ascended BACK to where he WAS BEFORE.
So play word games with someone else. Pretend away all the sense of the words Jesus spoke with someone else.
Jesus said he had glory with God before the world began. You guys say he didn't. I hope Jesus will forgive those lies you tell about him when the time for judgment has arrived.
Mike,
Quote Only IF you can personally take POSSESSION of the things your father is saying are “yours” will you be able to say you HAVE those things. The phrase, “all I have is yours” can either mean that these things WILL be left to you WHEN I die and no longer need them……… or it can mean that I will give you whatever is in MY OWN possession to help you out if you need me to.
If I tell my son, “All I have is yours”, it DOESN'T mean that my son immediately OWNS my car, or house, or even my computer. I still POSSESS those things, and therefore am the ONLY one who actually HAS them. They don't get transferred to my son's name just because I made that statement.
Basically you want to believe the father is speaking figuratively to his son and not literally. I am not sure that is an issue as Jesus could have been speaking figuratively as well. All I know is that God knew Jesus before the beginning of the world and had his glory ready for the time when Jesus would receive it.
I have more to say but it may be irrelevant.
Mike,
Quote 1 Peter 1:4
and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you,Does Peter believe we already HAVE that inheritance of “praise, glory and honor” (verse 7)? Or is this inheritance being KEPT for us in heaven?
The situation is if the inheritance is already the heirs or if it is not yet the heirs. If we were talking that about humans who are not all knowing keeping it then the later would apply but with God who is all knowing the earlier applies.
Mike,
Quote I don't have the time or patience for it anymore. Jesus said he wanted the glory HE WAS HAVING IN GOD'S PRESENCE BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN. Is this conversation hard on your world view?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 28 2013,23:47) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 27 2013,13:38) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 27 2013,23:43) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 26 2013,00:38) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 26 2013,03:47)
Interesting. What about John 17:24? It is part of the same passage. Where do you think Jesus wants them be with him – so they can see that glory God has given him? In God's presence in heaven? Or on earth, away from God?
Mike,Jesus is talking of the believers in general by that point as he switched to them in verse 20. He is also talking about believers being in him and he in them. I am prone to think he is asking that believers be with him spiritually.
John 17
13 “I am coming to you now………….24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
You are being willfully ignorant, Kerwin.
Mike,You are skipping a lot of content to connect those two.
Oh brother! May God have mercy on your argumentative soul, Kerwin.Okay. Why don't YOU just tell us what Jesus meant when he said, “And now Father, glorify me WITH YOU…..”.
Remember that Jesus knew he was about to go back to the Father when he said those words.
So tell us what the “WITH YOU” part meant.
Mike,I already did but you chose to omit it.
Here is my words:
Quote “I am” is probably continuous as with “I am with you always”. I have not bothered to confirm that as Jesus states “I in them” and “they also may be one in us”. My references are John 17:20-24 and Matthew 28:16-20.
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