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Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2013,10:32) Wakeup, Quote Please provide scriptures saying,
satan is flesh with evil in him.So you are claiming even though evil is a spirit Satan, the evil one, does not have it in him?
1 Corinthians 2:12
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Whose spirit do you think the spirit of the world is?
John 8:44
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Which spirit do you thing Satan lives when he does evil things?
Which spirit do you think his children live by?Luke 22:3
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
How do you think Satan entered into Judas Iscariot?
Kerwin.My question was:
Please provide scriptures saying Satan is flesh.
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 30 2013,06:27) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2013,10:32) Wakeup, Quote Please provide scriptures saying,
satan is flesh with evil in him.So you are claiming even though evil is a spirit Satan, the evil one, does not have it in him?
1 Corinthians 2:12
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Whose spirit do you think the spirit of the world is?
John 8:44
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Which spirit do you thing Satan lives when he does evil things?
Which spirit do you think his children live by?Luke 22:3
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
How do you think Satan entered into Judas Iscariot?
Kerwin.My question was:
Please provide scriptures saying Satan is flesh.
wakeup.
Wakeup,Sorry, that is not the part of the question you asked that I view as overly important. I was proving he had the evil spirit in him and was the father of that spirit.
The angels that visited Lot's home were shown to be corporeal by the fact that they both ate and were touched. There seems other angel beings that are non-corporeal according to a passage in Job and possibly also Micaiah's vision. So you ask which sort of angel does Scripture say Satan is? As far as I know it remains silent on the issue as I know of nowhere where Satan either eats or is touched and it does not talk about any angel in that explicit of terms.
I tend to go by traditions that he but those are unreliable. If you have evidence he is non-corporeal then please share it.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2013,19:21) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 30 2013,06:27) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2013,10:32) Wakeup, Quote Please provide scriptures saying,
satan is flesh with evil in him.So you are claiming even though evil is a spirit Satan, the evil one, does not have it in him?
1 Corinthians 2:12
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Whose spirit do you think the spirit of the world is?
John 8:44
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Which spirit do you thing Satan lives when he does evil things?
Which spirit do you think his children live by?Luke 22:3
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
How do you think Satan entered into Judas Iscariot?
Kerwin.My question was:
Please provide scriptures saying Satan is flesh.
wakeup.
Wakeup,Sorry, that is not the part of the question you ask that I view as overly important. I was proving he had the evil spirit in him and was the father of that spirit.
The angels that visited Lot's home were shown to be corporeal by the fact that they both ate and were touched. There seems other angel beings that are non-corporeal according to a passage in Job and possibly also Micaiah's vision. So you ask which sort of angel does Scripture say Satan is? As far as I know it remains silent on the issue as I know of nowhere where Satan either eats or is touched and it does not talk about any angel in that explicit of terms.
I tend to go by traditions that he but those are unreliable. If you have evidence he is non-corporeal then please share it.
Kerwin.You are the compliant;
you need to come with your evidence.
You disagree that satan is spirit as the angels are spirit.
So come up with your evidence based on your disagreement.
That satan is flesh,some special flesh.wakeup.
Wakeup,
It is not that important of issue for me as Scripture does not seem to give any evidence one way or another. Tradition is fine as long as it does not contradict Scripture. I was asking if you know of anywhere it does contradict Scripture.
It is obvious that some angels are corporeal. Traditionally the non-corporeal ones are low ranking creatures.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2013,19:54) Wakeup, It is not that important of issue for me as Scripture does not seem to give any evidence one way or another. Tradition is fine as long as it does not contradict Scripture. I was asking if you know of anywhere it does contradict Scripture.
It is obvious that some angels are corporeal. Traditionally the non-corporeal ones are low ranking creatures.
Kerwin.It certainly is very important.
For you are saying that Jesus is flesh still, and we will be resurrected in the flesh also.
And this contradicts many scriptures. And you are preaching it.If satan is flesh with an evil spirit in him.
Was he perfect before that evil spirit went in him?
This only means that the evil spirit
has more power then him.You should read Ez 28. and Isiah 14.
There you will read how lucifer became evil.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 30 2013,15:09) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2013,19:54) Wakeup, Jesus is not that important of issue for me as Scripture does not seem to give any evidence one way or another. Tradition is fine as long as it does not contradict Scripture. I was asking if you know of anywhere it does contradict Scripture.
It is obvious that some angels are corporeal. Traditionally the non-corporeal ones are low ranking creatures.
Kerwin.It certainly is very important.
For you are saying that Jesus is flesh still, and we will be resurrected in the flesh also.
And this contradicts many scriptures. And you are preaching it.If satan is flesh with an evil spirit in him.
Was he perfect before that evil spirit went in him?
This only means that the evil spirit
has more power then him.You should read Ez 28. and Isiah 14.
There you will read how lucifer became evil.wakeup.
Wakeup,Jesus having a flesh and bone body does not contradict any Scriptures. You just don't understand what God says nor do you seek to overcome your lack of knowledge.
Spirits are incorporeal and therefore have no body spiritual or otherwise. You refuse to acknowledge that fact and so you do not believe certain passages and give them your own interpretation.
There is nowhere in Scripture where Jesus is said to be incorporeal.
What is revealed is that Jesus was buried in a flesh and blood body and raised in a flesh and bone one, just as Paul declares a human is buried in his natural body and raised in his Spiritual one.
It is your choice not to learn those things that are necessary to correctly understand Scripture.
Wakeup,
As far as I know there was no evil spirit before Satan chose to rebel. Essentially evil is rebellion against good. I find it hard to believe God created evil as he cannot even be tempted by evil. Still he created Satan and gave him free will to choose righteousness or wickedness.
Satan was not overpowered by evil but knowingly committed blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. Each and every one of the angels that fell did.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 29 2013,17:57) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2013,05:52) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 27 2013,12:13) Your only real sticking point because you choose to disregard evidence that Jews, like Paul, used “flesh and blood” as an idiom to mean mortal.
Kerwin,When Paul was explaining about the differences between the flesh of people, animals, birds, and fish, did the word “flesh” literally MEAN “flesh”? Or did it mean “mortal” or “sinful”?
Which one please?
Mike,Paul was probably talking about mortal flesh as his examples were creatures mentioned were were not yet creatures of the world to come. He was applying the pattern to both mortal and immortal bodies so it may be he was talking about both.
Kerwin,The point is that when Paul used the word “flesh” in describing the various animals, man included, he actually MEANT “flesh” – and not some abstract meaning.
So why then would you think he DIDN'T actually mean “flesh” when he said “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God”?
To all……..God created both Good and Evil, we could not “know” what evil is without good, and we could not “know” what good is without evil, the KNOWLEDGE of these two opposites explain what life consists of, they both come from “ONE” TREE placed in the garden of Eden by GOD, so they are combined in defining life. Y They both, give us wisdom in understanding of how life works and what consequences they each effect in LIFE. I believe they will exist forever giving balance to all Life forever. Good Explains what Evil is and Evil explains what Good is. IMO
Peace and love to you all…………….gene
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 29 2013,17:46) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2013,05:44)
So then your FINAL answer is that SOME angels of God and Satan are truly spirit beings, while OTHER angels of God and Satan have “spiritual flesh”?
Mike,It seems so from what is written in Job. Micaiah's words seem to hint that way as well.
Angel “flesh” is not human flesh.
I am not as sure of non-corporeal members of the hosts nor am I sure of what angel flesh is composed of, except I know it is not composed of spirit as spirit is non-corporeal.
I did not make up Spiritual flesh as the living body is flesh of some type and Scripture mentions the Spiritual body.
Otherwise it sounds like you are correct.
Don't say I'm correct, because I'm not the one claiming this stuff. I was merely posting what I thought YOU believed.I believe ALL angels of God and of Satan are spirit beings, consisting of spiritual bodies.
Don't confuse yourself with the standard definitions of things like “non-corporeal”. Because to human beings, “wind” is also non-corporeal, although we can see a definitive BODY of wind on the radar when looking at a hurricane or tornado.
So since “non-corporeal” angels are said to be like the wind, it doesn't mean they don't have a body at all. It only means they don't have a “typical” body like we are used to in the natural world.
Mike” …….A radar, or a ray sent from a sending unit does not see anything, it only record the effect of the elements it hits and times the response forward and backward and this measurement in time is give a calculation for distance and size. It cannot see the wind itself at all.
So you must find another example for BODIED Spirits, because that one is sure wrong. Even Jesus related to a spirits invisibleness, saying you can hear the sound or better the effects of it but you can't see it. SO is everyone Who is born of the spirit.
But that in no way is saying a spirit is a body of any kind. In fact without a body a spirit is considered as naked. Spirits Seek bodies to DWELL in, they are useless without a body to live in. Same with clean or unclean spirits when they leave a body they go about in “ARID” places seeking rest, and that is why it says the spirit EARNESTLY desires us. Spirits are NOT bodies of any kind? THEY Are INTELLECTS giving the living BODIES they are “IN” their particular attributes , they exist in all types and kinds. The can only influence the bodies they are “IN” , in fact they can completely take them over, as scripture has shown.
Peace and love………………………..gene
Kerwin,
Wakeup is right here. You are the one taking it upon yourself to pretend the teaching that all angels are (not “have”) ministering spirits is flawed, and that angels have flesh.
If YOU cannot prove such a thing from any scripture, then YOU shouldn't make such a claim in the first place.
Wakeup is also right that the ONLY reason you are making this stuff up in the first place is because you don't WANT Jesus to be existing in his new, glorious, spirit body at the right hand of God – who is also a spirit being. You WANT Jesus to have never been anything but flesh like us, and you WANT him to still be that way.
It is those personal DESIRES that keep you from seeing that Jesus pre-existed his flesh, and is no longer flesh in heaven, since he was given back the glory he had with his God before the world began.
And since we showed you how silly it is to think Jesus is the only living being in heaven who has flesh, you invented this “spiritual flesh” thing that you said ALL angels consist of. Then, when showed scriptures that prohibit such an idea, you partially surrendered, and now claim that only SOME of the angels have this “spiritual flesh”, while others are indeed spirits – like the scriptures say.
I've been with you through the entire process, Kerwin. It is easy to see how you start with something you WANT to be true, and then set out MAKING it true – whether it really is or not. And it's easy to see how you alter your original claim as you go, changing just enough to fit your understanding into the explicit scriptures we show you, but always reserving for yourself a “fallback” so you don't have to COMPLETELY concede. For example, when cornered, you will point out that “ruwach” can also mean “wind” – just so you can weave your way out of a tight spot. That way, you can always keep a tattered and torn remnant of the original claim for yourself.
I've watched you do this on many various subjects for the past 3 or 4 years here.
What if you accepted the teaching that all angels ARE ministering SPIRITS?
What if you accepted that, and therefore had no need to make up “spiritual flesh”? And then you could correctly understand Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 15. And you could know that Jesus doesn't exist in heaven as a flesh and bone human being, sitting at the right hand of One who lives in light that is unapproachable to human beings. And you wouldn't be claiming that Satan is flesh, in opposition to Paul's teaching in Ephesians 6:12.
See how much better you'd be aligned with scripture if you stop trying to be like Charles – making up your own Bible as you go along?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 30 2013,16:54) So you must find another example for BODIED Spirits, because that one is sure wrong.
Gene,I live in Arizona, where “dust devils” are common. When that body of wind picks up the dust of the desert and moves it around, humans can see the body of wind with their own eyes.
Water is another thing that dictionaries would probably list as “non-corporeal”. But a lake is a BODY of water.
I'm only telling Kerwin to keep things like this in mind when relying on standard definitions. Because the two things I've listed are actually NATURAL things on earth. And if the standard definitions don't apply to these NATURAL things, how much less will they apply to heavenly and spiritual things?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 31 2013,04:16) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 29 2013,17:57) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2013,05:52) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 27 2013,12:13) Your only real sticking point because you choose to disregard evidence that Jews, like Paul, used “flesh and blood” as an idiom to mean mortal.
Kerwin,When Paul was explaining about the differences between the flesh of people, animals, birds, and fish, did the word “flesh” literally MEAN “flesh”? Or did it mean “mortal” or “sinful”?
Which one please?
Mike,Paul was probably talking about mortal flesh as his examples were creatures mentioned were were not yet creatures of the world to come. He was applying the pattern to both mortal and immortal bodies so it may be he was talking about both.
Kerwin,The point is that when Paul used the word “flesh” in describing the various animals, man included, he actually MEANT “flesh” – and not some abstract meaning.
So why then would you think he DIDN'T actually mean “flesh” when he said “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God”?
Mike,Flesh has many uses in Scripture while flesh and blood is a Jewish idiom that then and now means mortal. In addition Jesus chooses to use flesh and bone to describe his post resurrection body, a body Paul had jest written was not the same as the pee-resurrection body.
So in your thinking, the body Jesus was raised from the dead in – the one with scars and holes – is the new glorified body in which Jesus exists now at the right hand of God?
Quote
Jesus having a flesh and bone body does not contradict any Scriptures. You just don't understand what God says nor do you seek to overcome your lack of knowledge.
Spirits are incorporeal and therefore have no body spiritual or otherwise. You refuse to acknowledge that fact and so you do not believe certain passages and give them your own interpretation.
There is nowhere in Scripture where Jesus is said to be incorporeal.
What is revealed is that Jesus was buried in a flesh and blood body and raised in a flesh and bone one, just as Paul declares a human is buried in his natural body and raised in his Spiritual one.
It is your choice not to learn those things that are necessary to correctly understand Scripture.This is the truth.
mikeboll64,Oct. wrote:[/quote]
Mike,Acts 7:54-59 The murder of Stephen … “When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord.”Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 31 2013,05:30) So in your thinking, the body Jesus was raised from the dead in – the one with scars and holes – is the new glorified body in which Jesus exists now at the right hand of God?
Mike,The body that Jesus rose in and the one that bore marks of his being glorified is the body that was resurrected from the grave to make him the chief of those resurrected from the dead.
Paul teaches us those that are resurrected from the burial place do not have the same body that is planted there and if Jesus did have the same body then he, like Lazarus, would not be an example of those that are raised from the dead.
Kerwin.
I feel sorry for those in Christ,
with no arms and legs and no eyes.
Because you say; Jesus was resurrected as he was.wakeup.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2013,03:45) No, spirit gives birth to a new spirit in the man that is born again. A new spirit is necessary to inherit the reign of God.
Kerwin …..> That is absolutely a true statement brother. A spirit is not to be born a new Spirit, nor gives berth to one either, All Spirit are created by GOD both Good and Evil . Spirits give us its own Cognition of Life, their own specific intellects of life are imparted those they are in. They can ABIDE in FLESH and God can remove them or add them into a Flesh Body as he see fit, Just as he has done in all physical creation, even animals , foul, fish, and man and angels, of every kind. God makes us a Body, and then adds Spirit into it, and WE then become a “LIVING SOUL” . That Spirit he puts into it will determine its actions. Either for Good or evil, “For GOD gives it a “BODY”, just as He chooses”.Spirit can not Change they can be removed and replaced in a “BODY” though. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
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