- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Kerwin,
You understand nothing of my conversation with Miia. What I said I said in jest. But you say-
“The fornicators, unless they are male, are not blessed.
From what I understand proof of the woman virginity, i.e. she bled on the marriage blankets, was kept.”
And just how are male fornicators blessed above female ones then? Your stupid comment only shows how brainwashed and chauvinistic you really are!
Nick and Kerwin,
I quote myself, “And so many women have suffered tortuous lives and deaths based upon these words.” And neither of you give a damn about that do you? All either of you care about is trying to be religiously right trying to “save yourselves” regardless of all the suffering these religious words have caused. Go ahead and tell me how you try and love your”neighbor” when you are both such heartless fools.
AndrewAD,
Male fornicators were not put to death under the Law if they failed to prove they were innocent of being fornicators.
Deuteronomy 22:13-21Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
13 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, 14 and give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: 15 then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel’s virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: 16 and the damsel’s father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; 17 and, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter’s virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. 18 And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him; 19 and they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days. 20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: 21 then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father’s house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
Actually there is an out for her and that is the words But if this thing be true, as well as the tokens of her virginity not being found before she is judged guilty. If it is interpreted that way then the token are extra insurance if the woman is otherwise judged guilty.
AndrewAd,
Nick and Kerwin,
I quote myself, “And so many women have suffered tortuous lives and deaths based upon these words.” And neither of you give a damn about that do you? All either of you care about is trying to be religiously right trying to “save yourselves” regardless of all the suffering these religious words have caused. Go ahead and tell me how you try and love your”neighbor” when you are both such heartless fools.
Should I roll my eyes because I do not believe what you say.
Those same women disobey God’s commands whenever they choose and yet strangely they can separate from their oppressor because they want to obey God.
Stop buying into the nonsense of the world.
People have always misinterpret the words of wisdom unto their own damnation and if all do is suffer for it in this world then they are blessed.
Kerwin,
“Should I roll my eyes because I do not believe what you say.
Those same women disobey God’s commands whenever they choose and yet strangely they can separate from their oppressor because they want to obey God.
Stop buying into the nonsense of the world.
People have always misinterpret the words of wisdom unto their own damnation and if all do is suffer for it in this world then they are blessed.”
It’s really no surprise to me that you say this since you live in your own little religious mind and as I said before your only concern is try to”spiritually” save yourself. You either have no idea or no concern at all for the abuse that goes on in this world over religion .It seems plain to me that you live in outright denial of real truth in favor of manipulation.
AndrewAd,
I live in the real world and I see woman refuse to leave and even defend those that abuse them. I assure you such women are not living by the flesh for God hates those who love violence, Psalms 11:5. These women when they are not not are violent as the men that abuse them still are lovers of the flesh. I am not saying anything that is not know but excuses are made to justifies the behavior of the women despite the fact their behavior is part of the problem. You cannot save anyone who does not want to be saved. They also suffer from lack of faith. It is truly a mess.
Whether it is the abuser or the victim they both live according to the flesh. One is violent and the other suffers from low self esteem and the fear of being alone. Jesus was not addressing the situation of violence in marriage because it will not occur when both people walk according to the Spirit and there should be a lifeline when at one walks according to the Spirit. Those that live by the Spirit may choose to suffer but they will not behave like normal victims.
Immature Christians may walk more by the flesh than by the Spirit and so are vulnerable to the depreciation of Satan. That is the troubles and tribulations of this world.
Can an abused woman leave or divorce her husband
Jesus did not say that divorce was wrong, he said that remarriage (after a divorce) is wrong/ is adultery.
In Mark, the pharisees question Jesus over the right to divorce a wife. Jesus said that was written for their hard hearts, but divorce was not so from the beginning. When the disciples were alone with him they asked him what he meant. He replied with a new understanding – a restoration to the beginning. “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another she commits adultery.” So, the master wants it to be like it should be. A couple marries, they get divorced, they live until death single. Divorce isn’t wrong, but remarriage is. The chapter continues with a man kneeling before Jesus and asking what he should do to inherit eternal life. Jesus answered him to obey the ten commandments, including the commandment against adultery. He says that what is impossible with men is possible with God. We can’t do some things on our own, but we can when God is with us (such as being single).
Luke is exactly the same. Luke says “it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the law to become void”. “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery”. Again, this is only regarding REmarriage, that’s all Jesus was talking about – a return to the beginning where marriage was a permanent covenant until death, even if there was a divorce. He then tells the story of Lazarus and the rich man and how the rich man fed scrumptiously every day while Lazarus suffered and hungered, (do you understand?). After death Lazarus ended up in Abraham’s bosom and the rich man in torment. Abraham told the rich man “Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things and Lazarus in like manner evil things; and now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.” The rich man begs him to send word to his five brothers to warn them, but Abraham says “If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.”
As for Matthew.. something is not making sense.
Nick and Kerwin, I quote myself, “And so many women have suffered tortuous lives and deaths based upon these words.” And neither of you give a damn about that do you? All either of you care about is trying to be religiously right trying to “save yourselves” regardless of all the suffering these religious words have caused. Go ahead and tell me how you try and love your”neighbor” when you are both such heartless fools
Andrew, not sure if you are refering to the OT or NT there.
Nevertheless, I just finished reading the book, “A Thousand Splendid Suns” about two Muslim woman married to an abusive man. Without giving away the story… imagine if he divorced them after all he did, then remarried, and treated the new woman like gold. According to Jesus, his divorce and remarriage would be a punishable sin.
Miaa,
We should be careful not to turn a statement of fact into a command.
Jesus stated the facts and that fact is that a marriage joined by God cannot be dissolved by human beings.
He did not say every marriage is joined by God though I work under the assumption it is. But considering Paul’s words a marriage and a believer and an unbeliever may not be jointed by God but the word of the believing spouse is binding unless the unbelieving spouse dissolves it. I sure a homosexual marriage is not joined by God.
Scripture states God hates a violent man and such a human is will be kicked out of a godly church if he does not change his ways. Should he or in some cases be kicked out they are then treated as an unbeliever.
Matthew 18:15-17New English Translation (NET Bible)
15 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault when the two of you are alone. If he listens to you, you have regained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others with you, so that at the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. If he refuses to listen to the church, treat him like a Gentile or a tax collector.
Gene,
God does hate divorce, so how does it equate with these words of his through Ezra.
Ezra 10:3New English Translation (NET Bible)
3 Therefore let us enact a covenant with our God to send away all these women and their offspring, in keeping with your counsel, my lord, and that of those who respect the commandments of our God. And let it be done according to the law.
Why would there be no exception to remarriage in Mark and Luke, when Matthew says something questionable?
There are two possibilities,
- The text in Matthew might have been altered by a Priest named Erasmus.
- The so called exception clause in Matthew is speaking of the betrothal period, (I think Kerwin said that).
more possibilities anyone?
The following is Matthew 19:9 in the Latin Vulgate and in Erasmus Latin New Testament compared. They are translated from Latin to English.
Erasmus’ Latin New Testament:
And I say to you that whosoever shall repudiate his wife, unless it be for disgrace, and shall marry another, committeth adultery.
Latin Vulgate:
And I say to you that whosoever shall put away his wife, such as for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery.
Study: http://morechristlike.com/documents/biblical-teaching-on-divorce-and-remarriage.pdf
Somewhere else I read the Latin Vulgate translated as:
And I say to you that whosoever shall put away his wife, even for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery.
Makes more sense, considering Mark and Luke’s no exception to remarriage.
Miia,
Joseph was considering putting Mary away because she was with child. She was promised to him and it was his thought, though mistaken, that she carried another man’s child. The angel came and informed him the child was a miracle of God and not another man’s child. The bible treats his attempted actions as righteous.
Jesus was not commandment but was speaking the ideal. The Law of Moses, as interpreted by the Pharisees, took into considerations the heart of those that live by the flesh while Jesus’ words do not.
God hates divorce so Jesus’ words should be interpreted with that in mind but also sees times when it is necessary or he would not have commanded divorces through Ezra. Jesus is not condemning God’s actions through Ezra.
Kerwin, growing up with christian parents, most of their married friends are still married till this day to the same person. I think out of about a hundred of their friends only one divorced (due to violence).
I know a christian from my generation, who won’t listen to a word that Jesus says on this. I wonder, is she a minority or majority today?
Miia,
Most Christian are not Christians from the heart because they do walk according to the fruits. It is unrealistic to expect anyone to abide by the words of Jesus if they do not live according to the Spirit. There are some that are able to but the fruits of the flesh are oppressive and it take various amounts of sufferance to resist rebelling against that oppression. Divorce is one option and perhaps the best option in some cases.
An abusive, or sexual immoral, person is not a Christian from the heart. They may be an immature Christian whose heart is still corrupt though it is being purified. Such an individual will seek to avoid those things that tempt them and so separate from their loved ones for a time though doing so will be a struggle. They sexual immoral will seek those situations when they are vulnerable to temptation as will the greedy and others.
Of my twelve brothers ans sisters two died at birth or shortly before, 6 have been married once and stayed married, 2 have married and divorced and married again. One has married twice. The reasons are almost always adultery though in one case it was abandonment. Even though those were the reasons for the divorce there were more sins involved. There were sins involved in the ones that stayed together as well. I have never married nor had a cohabitation relationship. I am also not free of sin though I hope one one day to be so.
At least some of us claim to be Christians. Two have since died and their breath is in the hands of God while they soul reside in Sheol waiting for Judgement Day.
Most Christian are not Christians from the heart because they do walk according to the fruits. It is unrealistic to expect anyone to abide by the words of Jesus if they do not live according to the Spirit. There are some that are able to but the fruits of the flesh are oppressive and it take various amounts of sufferance to resist rebelling against that oppression. Divorce is one option and perhaps the best option in some cases.
An abusive, or sexual immoral, person is not a Christian from the heart. They may be an immature Christian whose heart is still corrupt though it is being purified. Such an individual will seek to avoid those things that tempt them and so separate from their loved ones for a time though doing so will be a struggle. They sexual immoral will seek those situations when they are vulnerable to temptation as will the greedy and others.
That’s true Kerwin. Sad and frustrating when we care about someone’s life.
Of my twelve brothers ans sisters two died at birth or shortly before, 6 have been married once and stayed married, 2 have married and divorced and married again. One has married twice. The reasons are almost always adultery though in one case it was abandonment. Even though those were the reasons for the divorce there were more sins involved. There were sins involved in the ones that stayed together as well. I have never married nor had a cohabitation relationship. I am also not free of sin though I hope one one day to be so.
At least some of us claim to be Christians. Two have since died and their breath is in the hands of God while they soul reside in Sheol waiting for Judgement Day.
12 siblings is a lot.
I had one brother (autistic) and he vanished (assumed drowned). If that was so, I believe he is in heaven.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
