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Hi All,
I haven't been following this thread, but the scripture Roo quotes actually contradicts what Roo says.
It doesn't say the house receives NO glory, only not as much as the builder.
Jack, how can you argue a point when the scriptural proof that you are wrong is in your own post?
I don't think anyone will argue that Jesus is not greater than Moses. It is in scripture and is also logical to the human mind. On the other hand, the trinitarian arguement that God, in turn, is NOT greater than Jesus, even though it is also in scripture and logical to the human mind, is beyond me.
my two cents
mikeQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2010,13:01) Hi KJ,
So the whole point of this post is your rule that if someone is reconciled
that person cannot be a conciliator for others?2cor5 18-19
Riddles are for children.
See Nick? You must always stick in your 2 cents and have the last word in everything. I have been on other discussion boards and you're the only moderator that must speak so much.Were you ignored as a child?
Spend more time moderating please.
KJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 05 2010,13:09) Hi All, I haven't been following this thread, but the scripture Roo quotes actually contradicts what Roo says.
It doesn't say the house receives NO glory, only not as much as the builder.
Jack, how can you argue a point when the scriptural proof that you are wrong is in your own post?
I don't think anyone will argue that Jesus is not greater than Moses. It is in scripture and is also logical to the human mind. On the other hand, the trinitarian arguement that God, in turn, is NOT greater than Jesus, even though it is also in scripture and logical to the human mind, is beyond me.
my two cents
mike
TO ALL:The text does not have to say that the house receives no glory because it goes without saying. Does the house have a hand in building itself?
The text says that Jesus receives more glory than Moses “inasmuch as he who built the house receives more glory than the house.” Again, the house has no participation in building itself.
Did Moses take any credit for anything? No! He credited their deliverance to Jehovah and the Messenger of Jehovah (Numbers 20:16). He included Himself as being in the company of those who were delivered.The song of Moses also credited their salvation to Jehovah and the Messenger of Jehovah (Ex. 14-15). Moses clearly does NOT incude himself even as an inrermediate agent in his song.
It just gets in Mike's craw that he cannot reduce Jesus to the same “savior” status with Moses.
Mike
Quote I don't think anyone will argue that Jesus is not greater than Moses. Ah but you do argue that Jesus should receive the glory God receives which is exactly what the text plainly infers:
“Jesus is counted worthy of more glory than Moses inasmuch as he who built the hosue receives more glory than the house. He who built all things is God“
Jesus receives the glory of the builder. The builder is God. Ergo….
Kangaroo Jack
This is all amazing stuff!
This is all immensely, incredibly, diabolically, ludicrously, amazing!
How can there be an ingoing debate, a dispute, a difference of opinion, concerning,'He who builds the house receives more glory than the house'?
The builder is 'active', the house is 'passive'.
In the presence of 'active', 'passive' takes a backseat.
Scripturally, when the 'active' man is talking, the 'passive' woman, respectfully, keeps quiet (No sexism here, I did say 'Scripturally')
Without the 'active', the 'passive' can be eminent.
“Look at that house, isn't it glorious?”…no active…[unspoken tribute:'It must have a commendable builder!']
“Did you build that glorious house? You must be a commendable builder!”In both cases, both sentences allude to the builder getting the greater glory.
As it is said, 'The house did not build itself!'This is elementary ('My dear Watson')
If members here are getting stuck on the core of atomic level elements, what hope for more weightier matters?
Or is it really just a matter of one 'having to', 'being compelled to', disagree with an adversary, irrespective of the Truth spoken by that adversary?
JA……….Well put brother. As i have said before they just don't get it, no matter how clear it is presented, so they just bounce off the wall, that is why i believe KJ has chosen a more appropriate name. It is clear that GOD is the true builder of all things and Moses served Him in a Physical House , but Jesus served Him in a SPIRITUAL HOUSE. Jesus said clearly (UPON THIS ROCK) (which was The power of GOD to get into the minds of His called) he would build the Church and the gates of the grave would not prevail. Trinitarians driven by a deluding Spirit (INTELLECT) have been blinded to the truth and can not percieve it. So they go around and around going no where Just causing confusions and hindrance of the truth of GOD. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 06 2010,01:20) JA……….Well put brother. As i have said before they just don't get it, no matter how clear it is presented, so they just bounce off the wall, that is why i believe KJ has chosen a more appropriate name. It is clear that GOD is the true builder of all things and Moses served Him in a Physical House , but Jesus served Him in a SPIRITUAL HOUSE. Jesus said clearly (UPON THIS ROCK) (which was The power of GOD to get into the minds of His called) he would build the Church and the gates of the grave would not prevail. Trinitarians driven by a deluding Spirit (INTELLECT) have been blinded to the truth and can not percieve it. So they go around and around going no where Just causing confusions and hindrance of the truth of GOD. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………….gene
Gene,The text says this:
1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who BUILT the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.
The text CLEARLY says that Jesus is counted worthy of more glory than Moses “inasmuch as He who built the house is counted more worthy than the house.”
So Christ is counted worthy of the glory of the builder. Then it says that the builder is God. Therefore, Christ is counted worthy of the glory which God receives.
IT IS YOU WHO DOESN'T GET IT GENE! Does plain language mean anything to you Gene?
Roo
Jack,
There are two separate themes here.
One is the comparison of Jesus to Moses and the other is qualifying that even though Jesus built the House -it is God who built EVERYTHING.
This means God (Who is NOT Jesus -clearly) is the EVERYTHING PERSON rather than just the builder of the house man – God built not just the house but the gardens the fountains the forests the skies the heavens the seas the fields the animal – and Jesus built the house…under the directions of God.
That's how it Looks from the text.JustAskin said:
Quote One is the comparison of Jesus to Moses and the other is qualifying that even though Jesus built the House -it is God who built EVERYTHING.
JA,First, you are contradicting yourself. You say that it is Jesus who built the house but it is God who builds EVERYTHING. But if Jesus built the house and He is not God, then God does not build EVERYTHING because Jesus built the house.
Second, Verse 5 says that it is the Son's “OWN HOUSE.”
Third, this thread is about the Arain assertion that Jesus is a savior like Moses and therefore comparable to Moses. But Moses was not a savior at all. In Numbers 20:16 Moses himself CLEARLY credited the Messenger of Jehovah for saving the people out of Egypt. The Messenger was Christ (1 Cor. 10). Moses included himself as one of the people the Messenger saved. This means that Moses was not Israel's savior and there can be no comparison between Moses and Jesus. Moses was in the company of the saved.
the Roo
Jk………Moses was the one GOD delievered the physical house of Israel from Egypt through, He was a servant in the household of GOD'S people. Jesus was used as a builder of the (spiritual) House of GOD. What is so hard to understand about this. God in (Both) cases is the (SOURCE) of the work they both did. Trying to force the text to say somehow that makes Jesus GOD is flooish. IMO
peace and love……………….gene
KJ,
I sense a change in you and WJ since you BOTH (Coincidence?) went missing for a while.
Your arguments are more direct and Scripture based. WJ, has got more antagonistic… Did you and he decide to swap roles?
Anyway, your austere mis-intellect is boiling away under an apparently more pleasing interface.
I find it frustrating that you, who claims to have high qualification in Theology, cannot understand the concept of it being said in one place that 'The owner of the building built his own house' … And then, in another place, in reference to the builder, that 'he, the builder, built the house.'
I believe that there is only one reason for this inability to understand this ground basic, elementary concept.
And as to whether the 'owner' of the house is Jesus or God is neither here nor there.
And finally, Everything is Within God. So everything Jesus does is Within what God spoke the Word to perform.
Therefore, Everything the Word does is What God Spoke The Word To Do.
Jack, you power tripping.
You want to be Jesus, you want to gain power… Jack discuss Scriptures, not your personal unrealistic dreams.
So funny, first you quote 'God is the Builder', then you say that 'Jesus builds his own house'…
Jack, you are an oxymoron…an incongruence borne from desparation to be seen to be 'in charge', 'to have authority and power'.
Unfortunately, my diagnosis of you has not changed, you name change was only a cosmetic change that attempted to hide youe true inability to find your true position in life. You seek to attain a position over and above your designation…
Moses was designated by God to save God's chosen people out of Egypt.
He was saved from the threat of death at his birth and 'taken to Egypt' -Begotten into the household of 'Egypt' by the Queen of Egypt – Where, who is this represented by…Joseph…/Jesus…
Who is going to say that they don't see the analogy…Jesus was threatened with death at his birth, was taken to Egypt to save his life and then was brought 'out of Egypt'…'Egypt' is a byword for 'sinful nation', like Babylon. Read Revelation…
Joseph was taken to Egypt to save his life (His brothers wanted to kill him. Yeah, ok, he was bondaged into Egypt, but then wasn't Moses in 'bondage' in his swaddling baby clothes)
Did Joseph not 'save God's people', his family. He brought them into Egypt to save them, and then, the whole analogy repeats within itself in Moses who saves them out of Egypt.
Of course, Moses did not perform the ultimate, final 'saving', that, of course, is achieved by Jesus, to enable him to fulfil the prophecies, redeem the covenant promise and attain the throne of his 'predecessor' Father, David.
Hi Roo,
You said:
Quote The text does not have to say that the house receives no glory because it goes without saying. Does the house have a hand in building itself? Okay, okay. Just so you know that your are arguing that the house has NO glory against what the scripture actually says. Come to think of it, that is how most of your arguments go.
Lillies of the Valley did not have a hand in building themselves, yet Jesus implies they are indeed glorious when he says that not even Solomon in all his glory was as beautifully dressed as these flowers.
Think of it this way, Jack. The retreat that Solomon built – the Palace of the Forest of Lebanon – had glory, but not as much glory as it's builder, Solomon. But Solomon, as builder of this “house” still did not have as much glory as the builder of everything – God. Do you get it? Solomon, as builder of the house, has more glory than the house, but not as much as the builder of everything.
To apply your logic to it, Solomon was the builder of the house, but we know that God built everything, therefore Solomon is God. But you only claim these lame analogies when it comes to Jesus. It's like you can understand scripture just fine, but with everything written about Jesus, logic and rules of grammar and context fly right out the window because you ABSOLUTELY MUST make that scripture – no matter what it really says – imply that Jesus is God Almighty. And in doing so, you build arguments that a 3rd grader can tear down. You also make yourself look much less intelligent than I know you are.
You said:
Quote It just gets in Mike's craw that he cannot reduce Jesus to the same “savior” status with Moses. Mike
Quote I don't think anyone will argue that Jesus is not greater than Moses. Again, you claim something that the words in your very own post contradict.
Do you agree with this statement?
Jesus is the servant of God that God sent as the means by which God Himself would save mankind.peace and love,
mikeMike,
and more – you don't even go deep enough …
to jack, DID Solomon BUILD THE HOUSE … with his bare hands – NO, He employ Master Builders, Master Craftsmen, Master Chisellers, Master Stone Masons,etc etc etc.. So Jack, WHO BUILT THE HOUSE …out of all of those…?
“The House that Jack Built …”
“The argument that Jack constructed …”
There's a saying that I can't quite remember – Can any help me out here … something to do with Straw or Sand!Mike,
Quote I don't think anyone will argue that Jesus is not greater than Moses.
Is this an error – or belief?Did you mean to say:
Quote “I don't think [that] anyone will argue that Jesus is notgreater than Moses.”Quote (JustAskin @ June 07 2010,09:49) Mike, Quote I don't think anyone will argue that Jesus is not greater than Moses.
Is this an error – or belief?Did you mean to say:
Quote “I don't think [that] anyone will argue that Jesus is notgreater than Moses.”
Hi All,Sorry for my poor choice of words. I said: I don't think anyone will argue that Jesus is not greater than Moses.
What I meant is that no one in their right mind would ever argue: “No way, man! Jesus is NOT greater than Moses!”
Maybe Jack was right all along…maybe my English teachers WERE a waste of taxpayer's money!
Just to set the record straight for the next time my choice of words is inappropriate:
1. I think Jehovah God the Father is the only Almighty God. He is our God and also Jesus' God.
2. I think Jesus is the only begotten Son of our God, and the second most powerful being in existence.
3. I think that all spirit beings fall in below Jesus and his God, but I'm not sure which spirit creature outranks another spirit creature.
4. I think all of the above are mighty ones, and can therefore be called mighty gods in Biblical terms. But only one of the above is the God of gods and therefore the Almighty God.
5. I think that just because these other gods are not the Almighty God, it does not mean they are “false gods” or have no power or effect on human existence. It simply means that they are not the Almighty God.
Sorry, I know it's off topic, but I hope that clears things up for Roo. JA, thanks for assuming my innocence before condemning me.
peace and love,
mikeMike,
there is an easier way to say what you just been struggling to say.
In the beginning.
The Father is God.
The end.Don't get too immersed
Just give chapter and verse
make it simple at first
Not puffed up – ready to burst
Too much will cause one to curse
and force into reverse
perhaps …into a hearse…
Slow down – don't over exert
Murst…jurst…rerst…
ok, maybe a bit quicker…at worst!Mike, I only condemn the condemned and from how [most of] your discussions are stemmed you certainly don't qualify, my friend!
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