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Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 02 2010,17:45) Mike, So, who ARE the 'others', 'the Princes of whom one has fallen', and one is Gabriel, 'who stands in the presence of God', and another is 'Michael', the captain of the armies of angelic hosts of God.
Two Archangels at least.And who is 'Lucifer' (by the name we give him). Lucifer MUST be as powerful as they else he could not have done what he did. Nor could he have challenged God, nor be made 'God' of the earth. The other angels were thrown down from their position, but Lucifer was not, why? Not until Jesus triumphed over sin and death, thus proving Satan, the deceiver of men, to be wrong, wrong that any of mankind could live a sinless life and resist temptation, that mankind could live without God and His Holy Spirit.
Hi JustAskin,Satan's ↔ Lucifer!
Excellent explanation here, brother!
But in Biblical texts Gabriel is not called an Archangel.
You have to go outside of Biblical texts to get information about Gabriel.Your brother in
Christ, Jesus!
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orghi mike
JA:Quote
Hebrews says that Jesus was 'perfected', why would the 'Son of God' in the way you think of him, need to be 'perfected' if he is the 'very god from God'.I think you're confusing me with Kathi. I don't think Jesus was created “perfect”. I think the angels and mankind are all created with a free will. Jesus didn't HAVE to follow his God's will…….but he CHOSE to do that. I think every angel in existence today has the free will to obey God or refuse to obey God. I think they have a more physical reason to choose to obey God than we humans do. What we can only see through faith, they are able to witness with their own eyes.
It seems that alot of people think that Son, since Jesus was God's he could never do any wrong. I think that is a scripturally proven fallacy. Do you know someone who has a “good kid” who is honest and always does the right thing? Chances are that kid has a sibling who has rebelled against his parents and everything “good” from an early stage in his life. I think the same applies to God's heavenly children – some are “good kids” that try hard to please their Father, while others are “rebels”. And the fact that Jesus was the first “kid” doesn't change the fact that it has always been his choice whether to obey his Father or rebel against Him.
you say;since Jesus was God's he could never do any wrong;;;
it is not if he could but if he would,
just remember wen Jesus came to John the baptist,on that day,his live would take a drastic change,now he becomes Gods spook man, the anointed one,a priest to his God,the son of God ,the son of Man,the King of Israel,the holocaust,
the promised prophet,the resurrection,live it self,THIS IS NOT A NORMAL MAN,he talks like no one has ever talked,does things no one else has never done,he do all those things, and is humble as a sheep.
I WISH TO BE LIKE HIM IN ALL MY HEARTH.Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 04 2010,12:14) you say;since Jesus was God's he could never do any wrong;;; it is not if he could but if he would,
just remember wen Jesus came to John the baptist,on that day,his live would take a drastic change,now he becomes Gods spook man, the anointed one,a priest to his God,the son of God ,the son of Man,the King of Israel,the holocaust,
the promised prophet,the resurrection,live it self,THIS IS NOT A NORMAL MAN,he talks like no one has ever talked,does things no one else has never done,he do all those things, and is humble as a sheep.
I WISH TO BE LIKE HIM IN ALL MY HEARTH.
Hi Pierre,I second your wish to be like him. I will continue to become more so.
But you have mistaken what I wrote, I think. I said that many people think Jesus was created perfect and couldn't do any wrong. I am NOT one of those people, as the rest of my post explains.
mike
Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 03 2010,20:43) Mike, You have turned into a Snake…
Hi JustAskin,Quit with personal attacks; JustAskin!
God bless
1Peter 4:16-19Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 04 2010,19:26) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 04 2010,12:14) you say;since Jesus was God's he could never do any wrong;;; it is not if he could but if he would,
just remember wen Jesus came to John the baptist,on that day,his live would take a drastic change,now he becomes Gods spook man, the anointed one,a priest to his God,the son of God ,the son of Man,the King of Israel,the holocaust,
the promised prophet,the resurrection,live it self,THIS IS NOT A NORMAL MAN,he talks like no one has ever talked,does things no one else has never done,he do all those things, and is humble as a sheep.
I WISH TO BE LIKE HIM IN ALL MY HEARTH.
Hi Pierre,I second your wish to be like him. I will continue to become more so.
But you have mistaken what I wrote, I think. I said that many people think Jesus was created perfect and couldn't do any wrong. I am NOT one of those people, as the rest of my post explains.
mike
Mikesorry for even think of you that way,many people do not understand what perfection is??
may be we should start a topic on “be Perfect”?.
how that looks?
Pierre
Mike,
Why do you only select what you feel are 'personal attacks'? Are you crying?
Tell you what, stop posting falsely and I will stop posting against you.
Agreed?
Mike,
Do you have anything to say concerning the topic of this thread and the responses.
I'm appealing to you as you have most to say on this topic. And as such, you seem strangely quiet.
Mike,
Please can you explain Genesis 6:1-4.
Specifically concerning 'the Sons of God' whom came in to the daughters of men.
Who were these 'Sons of God' and how did they come to 'see the daughters of men' and how the 'Son's of God are different from the references to 'man' and 'men'.
Verse 7: says, 'Noah walked with God'. This is a definition of 'Human Son of God'.
This ties in with Jesus saying of God, 'He called them gods'.
You don't need an explicit Scriptural proof quote to see the fit.
Jesus was a 'Son of God', in the Flesh, because he, too, 'Walked with God', hence he replied to the Jews, 'What of it if I say that I am the [only] Son of God''…he WAS the Only Son of God [in the flesh] at that time…and he became, also, the Only Begotten Son of God, at the time when God said to him, 'You are my Son [in the Spirit], Today I have begotten you…' and he was then appointed as High Priest, having achieved, having then been 'perfected' as Man, worthy to attain the Spirit and become a True Son of God in the Spirit.
Also, Mike, please explain how Hebrews 1:4 says that Jesus, '…Having BECOME SO MUCH BETTER than the Angels, as he has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they'.
Mike, is this not answering the question in the thread topic? Namely, Jesus 'Became More Suoerior' to the Angels and ''Obtained a better name than 'angel'' so that by his 'new name' every knee shall bow [in Obesience, in honor, praise and glory] to him.
Good post JustAskin, thanks you helped me see something, with the sons of God, it seems to make more sense than everything else iv been hearing lately (on the pre-existance thread).
Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2010,12:30) Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 03 2010,20:43) Mike, You have turned into a Snake…
Hi JustAskin,Quit with personal attacks; JustAskin!
God bless
1Peter 4:16-19
Yes, and I second that, it is uncalled for….IreneHi Shimmer,
It's a pity posters only seem to want to post things to disagree…Some cannot even post according to the thread topic or relating to aspects of it…
What is the thread topic? Post wholly concerning that or an aspect of it, or else don't post in that thread, start one of your own.
Was Jesus always Superior? Hebrews 1, says he 'became so much more superior than the Angels and acquired a more excellent name than they.'
So what does that mean?
Scriptures also says, 'He was made a little lower than the Angels', so that by suffering and overcoming he may become perfect in the flesh and become a Son of God in the Spirit [As Adam was meant to be].
Adam, yes, for Jesus became what Adam was meant to be…in effect and reality, and as Scriptures says, he is the 'Second Adam', the first was of the flesh, the second of the Spirit, 'for he taketh away the first in order to establish the second'.
The [original] 'Day' starts in the dark and ends in the light.And Shimmer, 'Sons of God' is easy to see and understand when one does strain at the meaning.
Most, many, think of 'Son of God' like fleshly sons of man.
It is not so. Sons of God is one, anyone, flesh or spirit, who walk in the way of God. I have written this many times…
So Jesus being called, 'Son of God' means that he 'walks with God', 'Is Righteous', 'approved by God', hence Jesus says, 'He [God], also called them gods'
And what of Galations, 'You are also Sons of God in Christ, and as so, co-heirs with Christ'.
So, if they of mankind that also overcomes will also be Sons of God, to become 'Begotten', how much emphasis should be given to Jesus being called 'Begotten'.Clearly, it is significant at this time since Jesus is the ONLY Begotten at this time, but he will not always be as Scriptures says there will be others, in fact, 144,000 others.
Now, if there are any that despute, please do so with positive reference, not like Stuart who says, 'you can't spell', and Mike, who says, 'I feel you insult me'.
Edj posted that i made a mistake calling Gabriel an Archangel. That is good correction, i was sure, i was not absolutely sure though, that it was so.
Can anyone help out here? Is Gabriel one of the Archangels…one of the Princes, like Michael.
Is there more than one Archangel? If yes, who are the others…Why why why, why doesn't anyone respond concerning the 'Princes', the others, the 'Stars who sang together'. Was Jesus one of them?
Where was Jesus in the 'credits' when the heavens and earth and mankind were created and the Angels shouted with joy.
'All things were created through him' but he isn't even in the 'credits',…or is he, as one of the 'Stars', and then, if one of the Stars, was he even then a/the Superior one of the Stars…Scriptures does not make him so.JA, another good post, see, if things were kept simple, there would be less confusion, everyone (including me) has to look around everything, there has to be more to it, what you wrote here is not confusing,
I read somewhere that Michael was the only Archangel, that the Archangel was the mightiest of all the angels, or something, Adventists I think.
Zechariah 3:1-2, who is the Angel standing before God along with Satan?
Who are the two 'Anointed ones' in Zech 4:14., and wasn't Lucifer, 'the Anointed Cherub'?
Just some thoughts.
JA………….Jesus was indeed made lower then the Angles even as we are , and He was Perfected (IN) the Flesh as we also will be. Through the operation of God's Spirit. He is still a flesh and bone Man and will return as such, he is the first human to achieve GOD'S plan for man all for all of man kind. Jesus Was not a preexisting being of any Kind that is simply a false teaching. These who separate Jesus from our identity in every way are separatist and are Antichrists, this is the spirit (intellect) of Antichrist John was describing.
peace and love………………………….gene
Okay JA and Ms. Shimmer,
Let's address JA's main points one at a time.
THEN……….MAYBE…………he will actually address the scriptures that I've asked him about repeatedly.1. Please can you explain Genesis 6:1-4.
What would you like me to explain JA? That others besides Jesus are called “sons of God”? Angels are also called “sons of God” in the Book of Job. And in Deuteronomy 14:1, Moses calls the whole nation of Israel “children of God”.But what I'm asking is if Jesus was something more superior than all the rest of the “sons of God”. Are any others referred to as “THE Son of God”? Is anyone else called “the only begotten Son of God”? Were all things created through any other “son of God” besides Jesus?
2. Jesus was a 'Son of God', in the Flesh, because he, too, 'Walked with God', hence he replied to the Jews, 'What of it if I say that I am the [only] Son of God''…he WAS the Only Son of God [in the flesh] at that time…
What about John the Baptist? He “walked with God” and had God's Spirit working through him at the same time Jesus was flesh.3. Also, Mike, please explain how Hebrews 1:4 says that Jesus, '…Having BECOME SO MUCH BETTER than the Angels, as he has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they'.
Actually, I would like YOU to explain why Paul added the words “SO MUCH” in the first place. Couldn't he have just said “Jesus became better than the angels”? Why the “SO MUCH”? To me, that implies that Jesus already was “somewhat better”, but after being perfected through suffering, he became even more better than the angels than he already was, because God placed him in an even higher postition than the one he left to become flesh.4. Scriptures also says, 'He was made a little lower than the Angels', so that by suffering and overcoming he may become perfect in the flesh and become a Son of God in the Spirit
Scripture says that God made MAN “a little lower than the angels”. Paul applied this scripture to Jesus in the flesh because at that time, he was MAN. It says absolutely nothing to imply that before he was man, he wasn't already “higher” than the angels.And you ignore that Jesus said he was already the only begotten Son of God way before he “suffered and overcame”. (John 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9-10) You ignore that the Word became flesh and WHILE he “dwelled among us”, he already had the glory of an only begotten Son from the Father. (John 1:14)
5. It is not so. Sons of God is one, anyone, flesh or spirit, who walk in the way of God. I have written this many times…
Where do I find this info in the scriptures? Was I not still God's son before I walked in His ways? The whole nation of Israel was called “children of God”, yet we know many of them rebelled constantly against Him. I know we await the decision concerning which ones of us will become “children of God”, but I think that means “children of of God in a more special way than the way we are ALL His children right now”. Am I wrong in my thinking on this? Are there scriptures to say so?6. And what of Galations, 'You are also Sons of God in Christ, and as so, co-heirs with Christ'.
So, if they of mankind that also overcomes will also be Sons of God, to become 'Begotten', how much emphasis should be given to Jesus being called 'Begotten'.
Jesus was the begotten Son of God from the day God literally begot him. Some of us will be metaphorically begotten by God at a later time. And you have never been able to show any scriptural evidence that Jesus' begetting is anything other than a literal begetting, while 1 John 4:9-10 clearly tells us that God sent His only begotten Son into the world as a sacrifice for us. Get it JA? God sent His only begotten Son into the world as a sacrifice for us. How could God's only begotten Son be sacrificed for us if he wasn't the only begotten Son until AFTER he was sacrificed? But this is off topic.7. Now, if there are any that despute, please do so with positive reference, not like Stuart who says, 'you can't spell', and Mike, who says, 'I feel you insult me'.
You say this kind of insulting stuff all the time in your very posts that refuse to answer the points I've asked you about. Why won't you answer the scriptures I've posted? 8. Can anyone help out here? Is Gabriel one of the Archangels…one of the Princes, like Michael.
Is there more than one Archangel? If yes, who are the others…
“Arche” means “ruler” or “chief” in this instance. There is only one “Chief Angel”, and it is Michael alone. And there are only two mentions of “archangel” in the scriptures. Log on to NETNotes, where you can find this stuff out for yourself instead of relying on those of us who you insult for using these sources.9. Why why why, why doesn't anyone respond concerning the 'Princes', the others, the 'Stars who sang together'. Was Jesus one of them?
Maybe Jesus shouted with joy at the creation of the earth along with the angels, it is not clear. But the more important question is “Was Jesus something more superior to them at the time?” And just like “son of God”, someone else being referred to as a “prince” doesn't negate Jesus' superior position, does it?10. Where was Jesus in the 'credits' when the heavens and earth and mankind were created and the Angels shouted with joy.
'All things were created through him' but he isn't even in the 'credits',…or is he, as one of the 'Stars', and then, if one of the Stars, was he even then a/the Superior one of the Stars…Scriptures does not make him so.
You answered you own question JA. “All things were created through him.” That is the “credits”. You say “scripture does not make him superior”. Let's find out. I've answered every point you made both to me and Shimmer. Won't you please do the same to my points? Your biggest fan has showed up on this thread……..don't disappoint her now.1. Colossians 1:15-16 NWT
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him and for him.a. What actual scripture explains to us that “firstborn of all creation” doesn't mean exactly what it says?
b. What actual scripture tells us that the “all things invisible” does not include the angels?
c. Even if we omit the angels from the “all things invisible”, why is it that all things were said to be created through ONLY Jesus?
2. John 1:3 NWT
3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.If this scripture excludes the angels as things that came into existence through Jesus,
why do you think John wrote “not even one thing”?3. Hebrews 1:2 NIV
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.Do you think Paul really meant God made the universe through “all of His sons”? If not, then why only Jesus if he were not something more than “just one of the sons of God”?
4. Gen 1:26 NIV
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,……..”Knowing what we know from the three preceeding scriptures, can we assume the “us” and “our” in this scripture is God talking to His Son, through whom He created everything? Is that enough “credits”?
JA, I have been asking about these scriptures since we started this discussion. These are your answers so far:
1. The bad guys credits get expunged from the history books.
2. Jesus was the most beloved.
And I have solidly refuted the first one by showing you the bad guys are never expunged throughout the scriptures. And for the second one, I have asked WHY was Jesus “the most beloved” even way back then………….BEFORE “God's REAL firstborn son, Satan”, messed up”?
Not one of your scriptures or opinions do anything to imply that Jesus was just “one of the angels”, while mine CLEARLY imply he was something more than them from the very start.
I've had it with the “scriptures according to JA”. I've had it with the rambling, ranting posts that spend much more time on insulting me personally than even attempting to answer my points. Either answer to the 4 scriptures I've listed, or don't bother answering at all.
I will not answer even one more of YOUR points until you've at least attempted to answer mine that I've been asking from the beginning of this discussion.
peace and love,
mikeI forgot one point JA.
Why do you ASSUME the “all things invisible” in Col 1:16 excludes angels in the first place?
The other scriptures where “all” doesn't really mean “ALL” are made clear by other scriptures. For example, Paul said they had already preached the good news to “all of creation”. Yet we know where Paul traveled to on his mission and we can logically assume that Paul didn't make it to America or many other places in the world.
Jesus said God has given him “all power and authority”, yet we know that “all” cannot possibly mean “ALL” in this verse, for that would leave Jesus' God with NO power and authority.
So, my question is why would you just “guess” that this “all” doesn't really mean “ALL” in referrence to the angels? Especially when we have other scriptures like John 1:3 that confirm “not one thing” came into existence without him.
Is there any scripture that casts a shadow of doubt about the angels being created through Jesus, or is it your own “Satan is the Real firstborn of God” theory that is casting the shadows?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 05 2010,12:57) I forgot one point JA. Why do you ASSUME the “all things invisible” in Col 1:16 excludes angels in the first place?
mike
Hi Mike,Why do you ASSUME (it was Jesus that made) the
“all things invisible” in Col 1:16 but then exclude YHVH as part of “ALL”?
If YHVH does not fall under the category of “things invisible”, then he would be non-existent; right?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgMike,
I feel your pain for you, sympathy for your lack of belief and skewed thoughts, even as you mean well.
It must be hard being a 'Thomas' unable to reconcile Scriptures against a line of thinking.
But I applaud the fact that you raised the issues and points so that you and all can, like 'Thomas', with honest desire to acquire knowledge of God and the Kingdom of God, will come to the realisation of it.
NetBible…if, netBible were your God Bible, why do you struggle against JustAskin who uses nothing but the Scriptures. NetBible has not raised your level of knowledge one iota above that which is written in Scriptures (Who, by [using NetBibe] has increased their [knowledge] one iota…). For sure, use it to look up things faster, for crossreferencing, for background (Just as one may use platform shoes, 'Tom Cruise' Risers, or Highheels, or more drastically, 'cut, stretch and grow' bone), but ultimately, it all needs reconcilling with what is written in Scriptures.
You posted a 'Mikeboll64' style, 'point by point' post which, history in this forum, has shown to fall into chaos, more often never getting past point 1, as any answer YOU don't like is never acceptable to you. Hence, it is not knowledge and truth you seek, but just for someone to say, 'Yes Mike, I agree with you', and 'I won't leave point x, until YOU agree with ME'.
Quickly reading through your questions, it seems most have already been answered. You simply won't accept the answers.
But, none the less, for the sake of clarity, I will respond as often as you request.
At this exact moment I cannot respond as I am engaged elsewhere but I will aim to respond by midnight Saturday, UK time. Current UK time being Friday 08:35am.
Mike, just to give you something to go chomp on so you don't get too hungry waiting for the main meal of my response.
Edj has asked a pertenent question. Please use this as a 'starter'.
Are Angels, 'Things' in the same sense as 'Authorities, Kingdoms, etc'.
I am in a shop…there are many people, shoppers and staff. I raise a question about the products and the manager replies, 'All the THINGS in this shop come from the same source, these, those, everything seen and even the unseen things in the storage areas.'
Hmmm… So, the Human staff come from the same source as the products…?
Mike, Mike, 'Angels' are Son's of God, they are not 'Things', like 'powers and authorities'.
Angels are containers of such 'powers and authorities', Satan acquired one of the 'Rulerships', the one over the earth. All Angels have 'Stations' to which they are appointed…and some 'left their station' when they came into the bodies of flesh and blood bodies to mate with the daughters of Man.
And, moreover, God created a Man and put His Spirit into that Man.
There is nothing that can be gleened from, 'Let US make man' other than that there was 'more than one Spirit' involved in the total process.
Just as Trinitarians say there were Two and proves Trinity (two equals three!!! Or 'US' can 'only' mean Three) you are forcing a vision that 'US' means God and Jesus, yet there is nothing to say so. By this, you show desperation…why become desperate if you think you are right?
Further, just to be pedantic for your sake, Mike…:
Does 'Things' then not include Jesus himself. Is Jesus not a 'Thing' then by your reckoning, is Jesus not 'a power', not 'an authority'.
After all, Mike, the verse does not say, 'All OTHER THINGS' nor does it clarify by saying, 'Excepting Him that created the one, and the one himself, through whom all other things came to be', yet we see a similar thing written concerning Christ's position as acting Ruler over his father's Kingdom later on.Mike, there are uses for doubt, but like Stuart, doubt with desparation and refusal to accept truth, is not good for the one who is the self author of such doubt and desparation.
And…lastly, for now. Your bringing in of 'my theory' shows categorically, that you are desperate. I did not say that Lucifer created all things … But that many ones were used in the creation process, is not Lucifer called the 'Covering Cherub', is he not shown to be a powerful and extremely wonderous and beautiful Spirit.
Check your understanding of the nature of the world…whatever is done by many, in the end only the senior ones are accolladed, and if one falls into pergatory, are they mentioned in the credits…no!!
When the day comes, the night is forgotten.
When the injury is healed, the pain of the injury is forgotten.
When the new sinless kingdom is brought in, the old sinfilled one will not be remembered.
There is no credit in the deeds of AntiHero.
The Glory of the 'Firstborn' cannot be overshadowed by those of the 'fallen one of the others', 'the Princes, of whom one has Fallen'Mike………….JA is right in the fact we have dealt with you Posts before and You simply refuse to consider what we have posted and Just ignore them as many Preexistences do. I try to get you to see how you views are the word of separation of Jesus from our own Identity they are just as bad as the Trinitarian and Gnostic views they do the same work of separation, You just refuse to even consider them. Forcing scripture to meet our views is wrong , such as saying the US in Genesis specifically means JESUS and GOD, it only serves to force you OPINION the Jesus was there when in fact it DOES NOT SAY THAT AT ALL. But you even refuse to admit it , which shows your unwillingness to focuses on the truth. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene
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