Was jesus always superior

[Baker]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 14 2010,14:13)

Pierre, If I remember correctly the Seven Day Adventist teach that the Arch Angel Michael and Jesus are the same.  Michael being King of the Angels. I hold that it is a false teaching.

Kerwin, It was Jesus that created al through Almighty God. He also created the Angels. I don't believe that Christ is an Angel. Since He is the literal Son of God….Irene

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 14 2010,21:13)

Pierre, If I remember correctly the Seven Day Adventist teach that the Arch Angel Michael and Jesus are the same.  Michael being King of the Angels. I hold that it is a false teaching.

kerwin

the JW do believe that as well.

God create all things trough Christ including the angels,

so since Christ is the only being created dirrectly by God then the angels and with them us and all what is.

because of being the first and is called being of godly nature

Mal 2:1 “And now this admonition is for you, O priests.
Mal 2:2 If you do not listen, and if you do not set your heart to honor my name,” says the LORD Almighty, “I will send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings. Yes, I have already cursed them, because you have not set your heart to honor me.
Mal 2:3 “Because of you I will rebuke your descendants;I will spread on your faces the offal from your festival sacrifices, and you will be carried off with it.
Mal 2:4 And you will know that I have sent you this admonition so that my covenant with Levi may continue,” says the LORD Almighty.
Mal 2:5 “My covenant was with him, a covenant of life and peace, and I gave them to him; this called for reverence and he revered me and stood in awe of my name.
Mal 2:6 True instruction was in his mouth and nothing false was found on his lips. He walked with me in peace and uprightness, and turned many from sin.
Mal 2:7 “For the lips of a priest ought to preserve knowledge, and from his mouth men should seek instruction—because he is the messenger of the LORD Almighty.
Mal 2:8 But you have turned from the way and by your teaching have caused many to stumble; you have violated the covenant with Levi,” says the LORD Almighty.
Mal 2:9 “So I have caused you to be despised and humiliated before all the people, because you have not followed my ways but have shown partiality in matters of the law.”

Pierre

[seekingtruth]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 14 2010,07:25)

Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 14 2010,04:09) The closest you can come to putting an infinite “God in a container” has already been done… Jesus Hi Wm, Do you believe there is a boundary or barrier that separates what IS the being of God from what IS NOT the being of God? Do you believe Paul when he says there are both fleshly bodies and spiritual bodies? peace and love, mike

God is spirit, an infinite being, invisible, yet the source of all power. I believe at the foundation of creation an extension of the Father the “pre-incarnate Christ” was manifested, not a seperate being, but God Himself. It served as the interactive part of God in the OT.

This manifestation having the makings of this reality, but with the essence of God, was at the opportune time, sent to fulfill the secret of God to make possible the age of grace. This manifestation became a seperate being from God at the conception of Mary and while on earth He was totally a flesh and blood human being consisting of body, soul, and spirit.

After the resurrection He did indeed get a spiritual body and God exalted him to the highest position and gave him the name that is above every name, He was given rule over all power and authority, He was made Lord, by His God and Father and will continue being God's “agent” to mankind.
 
I arrived at this postulation based on the scriptures listed below:

Christ at Creation:
1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.  

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Christ in old testament times:
Genesis 17:1 And Abram is a son of ninety and nine years, and Jehovah appeareth unto Abram, and saith unto him, … 22Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD. … 22and He finisheth speaking with him, and God goeth up from Abraham.

Genesis 26:24 That night the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am the God of your father Abraham.

Genesis 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”
Genesis 35:1 And God saith unto Jacob, `Rise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there, and make there an altar to God, who appeared unto thee in thy fleeing from the face of Esau thy brother.' …  9 After Jacob returned from Paddan Aram, [c] God appeared to him again and blessed him. … 13 Then God went up from him at the place where he had talked with him.
Exodus 3:4 and Jehovah seeth that he hath turned aside to see, and God calleth unto him out of the midst of the bush, and saith, `Moses, Moses;' and he saith, `Here [am] I.' … 6:2And God speaketh unto Moses, and saith unto him, `I [am] Jehovah, 3 and I appear unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as God Almighty; as to My name Jehovah, I have not been known to them;
Exodus 24:9-11 9 Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire, [a] clear as the sky itself. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.
2 Chronicles 1:7 That night God appeared to Solomon and said to him, “Ask for whatever you want me to give you.”
Job 33:26 He prays to God and finds favor with him, he sees God's face and shouts for joy; he is restored by God to his righteous state.
But could it have been the Father appearing to people throughout the OT?
John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
John 6:46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
Col 1:15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
According to this scripture God had to have had some sort of “earthly appearance” that was less than the whole. He also understood that God would dwell on earth.
1 Kings 8:27 “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!
But would God really manifest Himself?
John 1:32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.

Christ as human:
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

I Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Ephesians 3:9 and to cause all to see what [is] the fellowship of the secret that hath been hid from the ages in God, who the all things did create by Jesus Christ,

Phil 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”

Ephesians 3:2 if, indeed, ye did hear of the dispensation of the grace of God that was given to me in regard to you,

Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

Micah 5:2 And thou, Beth-Lehem Ephratah, Little to be among the chiefs of Judah! From thee to Me he cometh forth — to be ruler in Israel, And his comings forth [are] of old, From the days of antiquity.

1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.

John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Dt 18:18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.

Philippians 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowne
d with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

1 John 4:2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” 6Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7″Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

John 17:4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Hebrews  1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”
7 In speaking of the angels he says, He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire.”
8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed.  But you remain the same, and your years will never end.”
13 To which of the angels did God ever say, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?
14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Christ after the resurection:
Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Jn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 14 “You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I

Ephesians 1:20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.22And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,

2 Corinthians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort

Col 1:15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,

Col 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

Philippians 2: 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things,

Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed.  But you remain the same, and your years will never end.”
13 To which of the angels did God ever say, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?

This is still a work in process (I've been working on it for weeks now) so as I continue to search for more scriptures I may change my mind and if anyone else has other scriptures I should consider or other scripture based corrections please post them.

My opinion – Wm
 

[terraricca]

ST

you do not know what is that you ask ,you say that Christ was a mere man,and you post many scriptures that shows that in fact he was in heaven,that he came down ,that he was with God,that he was the first creation of God.

what would you like to know???

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Hi William,
Good post and I agree but maybe, one thing that I see a little differently. This manifested expression, was 'it' not the Son of God before He became a Son of Man? Otherwise, Mary gave birth to the Son of God and the Son of Man if the Son of God didn't begin as a Son before her conception. Just wondering.

[shimmer]

Mike,

“Beloved, may we love one another, because the love is of God, and every one who is loving, of God he hath been begotten, and doth know God; he who is not loving did not know God, because God is love. In this was manifested the love of God in us, because His Son — the only begotten — hath God sent to the world, that we may live through him;  in this is the love, not that we loved God, but that He did love us, and did send His Son a propitiation for our sins.”

I could take this to mean, (firstly it says anyone who loves is begotten of God)…God sent his only begotten son out into the world…only begotten at conception with Mary perhaps…up untill then God has many sons it seems in scripture, who are firstborn too…

“Thus said Jehovah, My son, My first-born is Israel”,

“Ephraim — My first-born is he“,

David – “I will also appoint him my firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth”,
 
Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
I will make him my first-born – I will deal with him as a father by his first-born son, to whom a double portion of possessions and honors belong. First-born. is not always to be understood literally in Scripture. It often signifies simply a well-beloved, or best-beloved son; one preferred to all the rest, and distinguished by some eminent prerogative. Thus God calls Israel his son, his first-born, Exodus 4:22. See also Sirach 36:12. And even Ephraim is called God's first-born, Jeremiah 31:9.  

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Higher than the kings of the earth – Than other kings; the most exalted among kings and rulers. This was entirely fulfilled in David, who occupied a pre-eminence among princes and rulers which no other king did: a prominence alike in his own personal character and his reign; in his relation to God; and in the fact that he was the ancestor of the Messiah, the “King of kings, and Lord of lords” Revelation 19:16; “the prince of the kings of the earth,” Revelation 1:5.

[shimmer]

Interesting thoughts seekingtruth, that must of taken a while, and alot of thinking. (I let others do the thinking really) haha,

[Baker]

Wm! You gave us many Scriptures, and that is good, however there are plain Scriptures that tell us that Jesus was not just a mere man, He also was the Son of God and Son of Man.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Mic 5:2 ¶ But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting.

Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Rev 19:11 ¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Is there any other being that fits this description? I don't know of any….

Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Now let me go to Phil which you also quote. Why do you think Jesus emptied Himself of if He ws a Human being already? In order to become like us, He had to empty Himself first….

He also is the firstborn of the dead, so in all things He may have preeminence.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

Col 1:19 ¶ For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, , whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

SO IN ALL THINGS HE MAY HAVE PREEMINENCE….He was Son of God and Son of Man…..

Peace Irene

[JustAskin]

Shimmer,
You have, once again, brought light to some where previously they were in darkness.

Even so, some who are in darkness, cannot bear the light, for it uncovers theirs errors.

And, as much as the light should be a delight to their sight it is still likely that they might remain hidden under their bushell out of sheer fright.

How many times has it been outlined that the term 'Son of God' is not to be taken as in a literal sense. And neither should the term, 'Begotten'.

Each must be taken contextually, not strained nor force fitted.

There is no Scripture verse that states that God 'Created' or 'Procreated' Jesus…nor the Angels.
Yet, it is obvious that they came into being at some point in time…before the creation of the heaven and earth and all within.

Spirits, and God is Spirit, do not 'Procreate'…Procreation is a flesh and blood version of Creation of offspring…like for like…in flesh. All animals, all fish, insects, mankind…procreate, trees, flowers…all flora and fauna procreate, bring forth offspring of their own kind.

No Spirit is ever said to 'Procreate'. No Spirit is ever said to have brought forth another of it's own kind, except in metaphor…Jesus said that some of the people were the …offspring… of satan, and also Judas was called the 'Son of Perdition' (Mike, does this mean Judas was literally given birth to by Satan, oops… THE Satan, as THE Son, we hear of no other, so therefore, THE ONLY Begotten Son of The Satan)

So, 'Procreation' is ruled out for Spirits.

Thence, and therefore, it must be by 'Creation' that Jesus and the Angels came into being.

And, if by creation, all that is created, sentient bengs, are thence 'Sons of God'…and, guess what…it's what Scriptures calls them,…'Sons of God' (Genesis, Job, …elsewhere)

What does it mean, then, to be 'Son of God'? well Shimmer, you point out a very apt verse which describes it perfectly, and there are others.

So, seeing that we have a definition from Scriptures that plainly shows that it is ANY that walks in the way of God (…and, Mike, shows that they who do not…are not!!!) and that even 'things..like Societies, Nations, individuals and groups' can become, 'Begotten', taken up, raised up, adopted, set apart in higher eminence(PreEminence), it shows that every mentioning of 'Sons of God' and 'Begotten', concerning Spiritual matters is, contextually, non-literal.

So, logically, Jesus WAS created and WAS [a] Son of God. But….so were the [other] Angels.

In Job, where was Jesus when the convening took place?
Satan, the great adversary came among them…balance…where is the balance. If Satan was there, who provided the opposing force?
God Almighty…God himself, not another Angel. So powerful and 'high minded' was this 'Satan' that he could stand in the face of God and be disrespectful to his creator and his creator's creation.

But see here…Satan came in aming the Sons of God, and …Satan… WAS a Son of God!
Satan appears to have had free reign to 'rove to and fro over the earth' doing as he will. Most Angels are directed to do tasks, but Satan is not one like them exactly and can do things from his own will. Thus his challenge to God results in 'Do as you will, do your worst…except, don't kill Job!!'

To which other Angels could such an open invitation be given, even in negativity? How many other Angels would have power and authority, might and ability, to act according to their own will?

I warrant that maybe two or four, or twelve.

Should I ask who you think these other Angels with such abilities might have been?

So, Sons of God, but with differing Rankings. These Two, or four or twelve, call these, the 'Might Ones', or 'Principal Sons', or simply 'Princes'

Lucifer, because of his opposition to God, becomes, 'the fallen Prince'.

Jesus, because f his righteous works becomes preEminent among his 'Princely brethren' and the most beloved of his God and Father. But this is not the preEminence like begetting spoken of in Scriptures for it says 'To which of the Angels did God ever say…', and Satan and Jesus and the other Princes, are Angels at that time… There is nothing in Scriptures that 'shows' that the other Angels revered Jesus or that Jesus had did anything other than the acts that God committed to him and that he carried them out in full, as did every other Angel given a commission, for they were empowered to carry out the will of God at all costs…but even so, some Angels, had to be aided against stronger forces…the Angel sent to Daniel…which shows that Satan was far stronger than many of the other Angels, even giving his own power to an evil spirit ruler who themself withstood one as powerful as Gabriel, and it was he would had to be aided by Michael, ONE OF THE CHIEF PRINCES.

So, Son of God…as Man.
Adam was first Son of Man, and became not so by sinning.

So then Jesus came in the fashion of Adam, a second Adam, Son of God, son of God in the flesh. And reverently remained so…the ONLY Son of God in the flesh at that time…the only Righteous Man walking fully in the way of God. God brought him into the world, and he glorifies God as it is written in Hebrews 10:5.

And then he died in sacrifice and is raised up again, coming into the world again, as it is written in Hebrews 1:6.

And thence, he is taken up in Spirit, having accomplished all, and is declared:
'Son of God' as man in Spirit, different from
'Son of God' in the flesh, different from
'Son of God' in Angelic Spirit.

Son of God in the spirit body of man, as is written in Daniel 7:13-14.

[JustAskin]

Shimmer,
Your post to Terra…i agree with you.

Michael is said to be 'One of the Chief Princes', also, the Captain of the Angelic host army of God.

So, one of the Chief Princes, tnerefore there are other 'Chief Princes', how many more?

Because he had to rescue Gabriel, could this mean that Gabriel, although he stands in the presence of God, is not one of those Chief Princes but still one of the other Princes.

Also, sorry to say, but it might be better not to draw in obviously unscriptural doctrine like, 'Mormons say that ….'.
A point of Advice would be to not even entertain any background study of latantly obvious false teachings, let alone place them on the table in a hot debate…sorry, discussion!
And thanks, from me, for your response to Terra over preExistence. I'll tell you the truth, i did not understand what he was on about as i saw nothing claiming that Jesus was not preExistent in the post, yet poor Terra made it seem so.
But you, your godliness looked past the poor perception and made a righteous response.

[GeneBalthrop]

To All…………Spirit does not procreate it self because Spirit is the force that produces thought it is not Physical , nor can be Physically seen. But it is Power that can and does (DRIVE) Procreation in the Physical realm. It is what makes the difference between animate and inanimate things, like a SOUL is a BODY+SPIRIT in it. This is what is know as a BEING rather Angel or Man or Animal. GOD is Pure Spirit and can NOT be Seen ever, except through the Mind. He is manifested (through) things, “for the invisible things of GOD are manifested through the things Created”> GOD WAS (TRULY and completely) (IN) JESUS Our Lord and Brother. Jesus flesh was the temple that He and GOD the Father was living (IN). The same with all who have GOD'S spirit (IN) them, God is (IN) them because Spirit is in them. Why do you think it Says “And I shall pour forth of (MY) Spirit upon ALL FLESH and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,,,,,,,,,,. God can and Does (INDWELL) THE CREATION IN EVERYTHING THAT HAS LIFE IN IT, Form the smallest to the largest, if it has life God is in it, or it would die, “for God sustains all thing by the power of his might” Yes even when a sparrow fall he takes thought because the life returns to him who gave it to the sparrow in the first place. IMO

Jesus had no Superiority before he (recieved it) AFTER BAPTISM AND HIS RESURRECTION TO ETERNAL LIFE. He became filled with the Spirit of GOD the Father at the Jordan River, as witnessed by John, the Spirit descended down upon him in the form of a dove it say. And after that He was sent (into the world) by it as a SON of GOD, NOT BEFORE. IMO

peace and love to you all………………………………..gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 14 2010,11:53)

I want to start up a couple of seperate threads, theres too many different things here. Jesus as an Angel Jesus begotten when ? (Hang on, thats allready been done) etc…later I might.

Hi Shimmer and All,

I agree with you here Shimmer.  This thread has “blossomed” into a lot of thoughts about a lot of different things.  And it is hard to get to the bottom of any one thing when there are so many.

JA posts alot like WJ does.  He fills his posts with the entire “world according to JA”.  But he is unable to answer even the most simple straight forward question that refutes his belief.  I've dealt with this from WJ many times.  For example:

Jesus is God because:
1.  I and the Father are one.
2.  Honor the Son just as you honor the Father.
3.  Thomas called him “God”.
4.  Paul said he “Laid the foundations of the earth”.
5.  Many people “worshipped” Jesus.

SO THERE, MIKE!

But whenever I try to break all of these “world according to WJ” thoughts down and scripturally refute each and every one of them, he bails or refuses to honestly and directly answer straight forward questions.  Like JA, he claims, “I've already answered it” as his answer, when in fact he hasn't done anything but ignore it and hope I will just stop asking.
And when WJ lumps all these unrelated scriptures together in one post, it makes a pretty fair sounding case for Jesus being God.  But when you get to the heart of each separate claim he makes, it's easy to figure out that the way he's understanding it is not the lesson the scriptures are actually teaching.  Each one of these 5 points above are easily explained in the light of other scriptures, but who has the time and energy to refute them all in every single response to WJ?  And even when I have, he ignores the rebuttal and just posts even more out of context scriptures – all at once again.

Like the “I and the Father are one”.  Jesus also says his hope is for some of us to become “one” with him and the Father.  Now WJ knows this doesn't mean we will also be God, but he will ignore this fact, and later post the exact same “I and the Father are one” in the midst of another 10 out of context scriptures.  It's like a never ending chase because he will not actually stand and defend any one of his claims, but instead just keeps claiming many at a time in post after post.

This is what JA is doing here.  And you have all seen me repeatedly ask ONE SIMPLE QUESTION that is the key to refuting his entire belief that Jesus was “just one of the many angels”.  He won't answer the questions that I ask, but instead just keeps loading his posts with slanted scriptures and logic.  Anyone can do that.  I want the truth of the matter, so I want to take one claim at a time and one scripture at a time and one post at a time.  But he knows if that were to happen, his unscriptural “theory” would become exposed for the fallacy that it is.

So Shimmer is right here.  And I was also looking for the proper “begotten” thread yesterday to transfer that part of what we're discussing over there.

I'm not aware of a “Does God have a 'body'?” thread, so maybe I'll start one.

That will leave this thread open to get to the bottom of whether or not Jesus was always something more superior to the angels.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 14 2010,14:30)

How many times He wanted to gather them under his wing. But they would not. See, wing…angel,

Hi Shimmer,

Jesus was referring to a mother hen gathering her chicks under her wing to protect them.  This passage has nothing to do with any “wings” that spirit Jesus either has or doesn't have.

And you are missing Pierre's point here. He is saying that if Jesus is the ONLY being in existence that was brought forth DIRECTLY from God, and all other things in existence were brought forth FROM God THROUGH Jesus, then it stands to reason that Jesus is something more than the “all other things” that were brought forth through him.

So, could Jesus have still been “an angel”? Possible, but if so we know two things. First, he was the “angel” through whom all the other angels were brought forth, and so he is more superior than them. Second, we definitely know he is something that is “better than the angels” now, for many scriptures teach us this. So the thought that there are only “angels” and “God” in heaven is a fallacy.

mike

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 15 2010,10:34)

To All…………Spirit does not procreate it self because Spirit is the force that produces thought it is not Physical , nor can be Physically seen. But it is Power that can and does (DRIVE) Procreation in the Physical realm. It is what makes the difference between animate and inanimate things, like a  SOUL is a BODY+SPIRIT  in it. This is what is know as a BEING rather Angel or Man or Animal. GOD is Pure Spirit and can NOT be Seen ever, except through the Mind.  He is manifested (through) things,  “for the invisible things of GOD are manifested through the things Created”> GOD WAS (TRULY and completely) (IN) JESUS Our Lord and Brother. Jesus flesh was the temple that He and GOD the Father was living (IN). The same with all who have GOD'S spirit (IN) them, God is (IN) them because Spirit is in them. Why do you think it Says “And I shall pour forth of (MY) Spirit upon ALL FLESH and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,,,,,,,,,,. God can and Does (INDWELL) THE CREATION IN EVERYTHING THAT HAS LIFE IN IT, Form the smallest to the largest, if it has life God is in it, or it would die, “for God sustains all thing by the power of his might” Yes even when a sparrow fall he takes thought because the life returns to him who gave it to the sparrow in the first place. IMO Jesus had no Superiority before he (recieved it) AFTER BAPTISM AND HIS RESURRECTION TO ETERNAL LIFE. He became filled with the Spirit of GOD the Father at the Jordan River, as witnessed by John, the Spirit descended down upon him in the form of a dove it say. And after that He was sent (into the world) by it as a SON of GOD, NOT BEFORE. IMO peace and love to you all………………………………..gene

gene

how did Christ becomes POOR,so that we became rich.???
2Co 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.

Pierre

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike………….Was Jesus (always) superior? yes in the Plan and Will of GOD , but you have never proved he Preexisted his life on earth or preexisted in heaven as anything , you now say he was not angel as JA think, So then exactly what was he then? Please produce scripture the show what he was and what kind of creature of Spirit was he, what form did he exist in?. Still waiting of ONE Scripture that describes this to us . surely one exists because what grounds do you say he existed on if you have no scriptural proof of any activity of any kind, or maybe you can give us what his name was before his berth just some kind of (SPECIFIC) clue to his preexistence identity . You creating this post is simply a way around answering those question a diversion at best. IMO

peace and love…………………………….gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 14 2010,15:02)

Mal 2:7 “For the lips of a priest ought to preserve knowledge, and from his mouth men should seek instruction—because he is the messenger of the LORD Almighty.

Hey Pierre,

I guess that Levi was “an angel” too then.  He was a “messenger of God's word”, so he must have had wings and lived in heaven just like the other angels, huh?

People, learn from what Pierre is teaching.  Just because one is a “messenger”, does not mean he belongs to the “order of angels” in heaven.  Both Levi and Jesus were “messengers” of God's word, but that doesn't mean either have to literally be what we consider as “angels”.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 15 2010,04:53)

Mike………….Was Jesus (always) superior? yes in the Plan and Will of GOD

Hi Gene,

Thank you for your support of my claim.

Please remember to keep the “non-preexistent” stuff on the appropriate threads. Thanks.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 14 2010,15:55)

God is spirit, an infinite being, invisible, yet the source of all power. I believe at the foundation of creation an extension of the Father the “pre-incarnate Christ” was manifested, not a seperate being, but God Himself. It served as the interactive part of God in the OT.

Hi Wm,

Right off the bat, you are posting unscripturally. I've started a thread about spirits (including God) having “bodies”.

Let's continue our discussion there.

peace and love,
mike

[JustAskin]

To all,
Please excuse Mikeboll's rantings…he has just copy and pasted the same thing he always posts when he can't get his iwn way, 'I ask a simple question and you can't answer'.
Now, and if WJ did that, JustAskin does not do that.

Check the 'Mike vs ja' debate. Mike asks a quesion but when he gets the answer that 'HE' doesn't like he rephrases it, or simply ignores the response, and continues to claim that he has not been answered.

See in the debate that after everything said here, Mike is now saying that 'Some Angels may have been created through Jesus'…'for Not All Angels are Rulers and not are All rulers are Angels'.

Hmmm…seems like he will soon be saying that they weren't created through Jesus at all because that would mean that Jesus wouldnlt have created these 'wicked evil rulers who he will later triumph over.

Who are these 'Rulers' that Jesus created? Why did Jesus created wicked evil rulers…does this mean that Satan was not the father of the lie but that he was created that way by Jesus?

Mike names the Prince of Persia and the Prince of Greece as two of the evil wicked Angelic rulers, or, Principalities.
So, they did not come about by Satan's influence but by their creation through Jesus….!

Is there something missing here…

It is continually being said that everything was created 'through' Jesus…but keep forgetting to say 'Created BY God', 'everything was created BY God and, without Him, there is not a thing that is made that was made'..'for every house has a Maker' (Stuart, take note)

[JustAskin]

To All,

Have I been missing something here.

What does Romans 1:3-4 say…

That Jesus is declared Son of God according to the Spirit of Holiness, by the RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD.

Why have we been missing this for all this time….and all this discussion and debate…and there it was all the time….

Mike, what you say about this?

[Author]

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