Was jesus always superior

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike………Why do you desire Jesus be so different then us what is you reasoning for that. Could you not identify better with him as a pure fellow human being who overcame his very own human nature and conquered sin by the hand of God just as we could do also with GOD Grace and Help. You have never presented any points for God to Have sent a preexistent being to earth in the first place, What would that prove to anyone. That an already perfect Being can walk Perfectly? Well the is what perfect beings do right they walk perfectly> What is that go to do with us , we would not really be like that now would we>. And Mike Spirit is not a being it is what is (IN) Beings. Show us one scripture that say Spirits are beings, i have never seen that , not saying it is not there i just have never seen it, try doing it without forcing the text please.

peace and love………………………………….gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 12 2010,10:36)

There is no scripture that says that. But it has to be something which cant happen. You need a body to pro-create something similar. God doesnt have a body. God is spirit, thats scriptural. Without a body, a spirit cant do things like pro-create, a spirit has no need to eat, to go toilet, etc, only a flesh body can do those things.

You are correct that there is no scripture that says spirit beings cannot procreate.  But there is also no scripture that says that spirit beings don't have bodies.  In fact, Paul says they do:

1 Cor 15
40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.

44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

  If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

You see the things we are slowly clearing up just from actually believing scripture instead of the stuff JA spouts off the top of his head?

Besides Shimmer.  Common sense should tell us that without a body, or some sort of “boundry” or “barrier”, how would they know where one spirit being ended and another began?

The same with God.  If there is no boundry or “body”, then there is nothing to separate what IS God from what IS NOT God.  I'm sure God can make His “body” as big or small as He wants to at any given moment, or any shape for that matter.  To us, His “body” might look like an entire universe – who knows?  But there has to be some barrier that separates the being of God from every other being in existence, don't you agree? That would be His “body”.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Gene,

This is NOT a pre-existence thread.  I've asked you to refrain from turning it into one.

Gene:

Quote

Mike………Why do you desire Jesus be so different then us what is you reasoning for that. Could you not identify better with him as a pure fellow human being who overcame his very own human nature and conquered sin by the hand of God just as we could do also with GOD Grace and Help.

Unlike you Gene, I do NOT base what the scriptures say around my “desires”.  I base my understanding around the scriptures.

Gene:

Quote

Show us one scripture that say Spirits are beings, i have never seen that , not saying it is not there i just have never seen it, try doing it without forcing the text please.

So angels aren't living beings Gene?    And do you mean “forcing the text” like you do with John 17:5?  

Gene, please keep on topic in this thread. Thank you.

mike

[shimmer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 12 2010,12:32)

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 12 2010,10:12) That could mean, that through the whole Jesus being born here, and Jesus overcoming, and Jesus being risen from the dead, giving a way to all who follow Him, then yes, of course, through Jesus through whom are all things, and through whom we exist, and continue to exist. But then you would have to have that same explanation for the “all things” that came from God.  Are those things you mentioned the only things you think Paul meant that came FROM GOD? Shimmer, why do you want to do this?  Why do you want to search out a way for it not to say all things were created through Jesus? Put the three scriptures we've discussed together, Shimmer. Col 1 15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. John 1 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 1 Cor 8 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. Do you really even need the second two?  Doesn't the first one CLEARLY says all things whether on earth OR IN HEAVEN, whether visible OR INVISIBLE were created through Jesus? Do you believe the scripture or not? mike

OK, i see that, I agree then.

So, Jesus was created by God, and is maybe an Angel

All things were then created through God and Jesus,

Yeah I can get that. it makes sense.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 12 2010,10:38)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 12 2010,12:35) No Shimmer. JA believes Jesus was awarded the title of “only begotten Son of God” as some sort of status symbol he earned.  He does not believe Jesus already WAS the only begotten Son of God who was sent down from heaven, dwelled as flesh for awhile, and then died and was raised. mike See thats where I would agree with JA, Jesus was A Son of God, and there are many sons of God in scripture, But He was risen to something much higher, He ACHIEVED what He did, from what I can see. I believe the word ONLY Begoteen son begins with Mary.

Good, that gives me something to work with. Thanks for you honesty.

So, once again – just to be clear because you seem to be saying contradictory things depending on the post – do you think that Jesus was the only begotten Son of God who came into the world?

mike

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike………..if you say (WAS) Jesus (always) Superior. You are talking about a PAST TIME RIGHT? That is cleaver to draw people into a presuppose state that did not even existed, If He never even existed in that PAST then how could He have been superior to anyone. You cleverly create this threads but they all deal with Preexistence as you separated the Preexistence thread to different Text wordings, but they all deal with the same thing right? I see what you are driving at now and will try not to even bother posting to this (PRESUPPOSES POSITION) THREAD.

peace and love……………………………gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 12 2010,10:58)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 12 2010,12:32) Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 12 2010,10:12) That could mean, that through the whole Jesus being born here, and Jesus overcoming, and Jesus being risen from the dead, giving a way to all who follow Him, then yes, of course, through Jesus through whom are all things, and through whom we exist, and continue to exist. But then you would have to have that same explanation for the “all things” that came from God.  Are those things you mentioned the only things you think Paul meant that came FROM GOD? Shimmer, why do you want to do this?  Why do you want to search out a way for it not to say all things were created through Jesus? Put the three scriptures we've discussed together, Shimmer. Col 1 15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. John 1 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 1 Cor 8 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. Do you really even need the second two?  Doesn't the first one CLEARLY says all things whether on earth OR IN HEAVEN, whether visible OR INVISIBLE were created through Jesus? Do you believe the scripture or not? mike OK, i see that, I agree then. So, Jesus was created by God, and is maybe an Angel All things were then created through God and Jesus, Yeah I can get that. it makes sense.

Hallelujah!  It not only makes sense, but it is exactly what the scriptures teach.

So, if Jesus is the one through whom the angels were created, doesn't that set him in a different classification than “just one of the angels”?  Can the one who was brought forth directly from God be in the same category as the ones who were brought forth THROUGH that first one?

We know from scriptures that NOW he is in a class of his own.  Paul says he is better than the angels.  Paul says the angels will bow to him.  Paul says God never said to any angel “You are my Son”.  And it's important to note that Paul NEVER says “OTHER angels”.  He sets Jesus aside as something OTHER THAN an angel.  Many scriptures do.

So we KNOW for a fact that he is something better than the angels now.  And we KNOW for a fact that the angels were created through him.  The only thing we have to “guess at” is whether being the one that the angels were created through made him something other than and different to the actual angels who were created through him or not.  I “guess” yes.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 12 2010,11:22)

I see what you are driving at now and will try not to even bother posting to this (PRESUPPOSES POSITION) THREAD.

Thank you.

[terraricca]

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 12 2010,17:58)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 12 2010,12:32) Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 12 2010,10:12) That could mean, that through the whole Jesus being born here, and Jesus overcoming, and Jesus being risen from the dead, giving a way to all who follow Him, then yes, of course, through Jesus through whom are all things, and through whom we exist, and continue to exist. But then you would have to have that same explanation for the “all things” that came from God.  Are those things you mentioned the only things you think Paul meant that came FROM GOD? Shimmer, why do you want to do this?  Why do you want to search out a way for it not to say all things were created through Jesus? Put the three scriptures we've discussed together, Shimmer. Col 1 15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. John 1 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 1 Cor 8 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. Do you really even need the second two?  Doesn't the first one CLEARLY says all things whether on earth OR IN HEAVEN, whether visible OR INVISIBLE were created through Jesus? Do you believe the scripture or not? mike OK, i see that, I agree then. So, Jesus was created by God, and is maybe an Angel All things were then created through God and Jesus, Yeah I can get that. it makes sense.

shimmer

one little correction just to be in truth.

all was created by God trough Christ,right ?

Not;All things were then created through God and Jesus,;
—————-

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

You are exactly correct Pierre. I had overlooked the actual wording in my excitement that Shimmer understands!

Thank you my scripturally proficient brother.

mike

[shimmer]

Thanks Terrarica I see that. But Mike, what i'm saying here is what I believed before coming on this forum. I got put off and confused by some things here. But it's less confusing to believe truth as was known.

[shimmer]

JA, I thought you believed Jesus pre-existed in spirit too,

Whats the actual debate here, Between you both ?

And Who believes what exactly?

[JustAskin]

Wow, where was I when this flurry of activity was going on?

Some indescribable nonesense from Mike.

Some 'not sure what you on the same track, Terra'

And Shimmer, amazing…a few tweaks required but otherewise blessed posting.

Mike and Terra could do with some rethinking based on your thoughts.

Mike, since when do Angels need 'boundaries' for their Spirit.

You even say that God…God…has boundaries…wow…Mike…God IS EVERYTHING, everything is IN God…there is NO Outside of God. There is no container to contain God.
Mike, how can you imagine such a position…
In fact, imagination…is Spiritual and therefore 'Limitless', and hence you can imagine even that which is not possible, to imagine doing those things in the Spirit that are not possible in the flesh, to transcend physical boundaries and time is child's play to spirit, nay, not even something to take to mind in spirit.

So, it shows you are thinking with earthly flesh mind…and underlines why you cannot see the spiritual side which is where Scripture is based…Jesus repeatedly speaks of spiritual matter to the detriment of the fleshly minded human listeners, even the Disciples at many times…'Why do you not understand my mode of speech…'..'your thoughts are of the flesh', etc.

Do you imagine that God is literally sitting on a physical Throne in Heaven…how large is his throne then…so that Jesus can sit next to him on it?

No Mike, 'Throne' means Power, Jesus is occupying a position power (throne) within his Father's Power (Throne).

Mike, this is why you cannot indulge the idea of Dimensions…at the highest dimensions there are no 'boundaries' because everything and everywhere is within the lower dimensions, this includes all Space and Time…and this is the abode of God, the highest heaven.

Mike, forever and a day you struggle with the term 'Begotten' believing in the fleshly interpretation of the word and term.

You incorrection try to profer 'Procreation' as a Spiritual act. Mike, Spirits cannot procreate. Procreation is a human act, not spiritual. Angels do not procreate, God does not Procreate. One needs a body, flesh and blood, to procreate.

Spirits can CREATE, not ProCreate…so please stop trying to mislead Shimmer.

Create, procreate, what to you is the difference…no netBible twaddle, what do you say?

Back to container of Spirits… What do you think, that Angels jostle with each other, bumping into each other in Heaven…that, in the book of Job, that the Sons of God were sitting round a literal table, and Satan walked in through a literal door and sat down? How was he 'roving to and fro over the earth'?, in a superplane, 'Satan1'?

Mike,
Come into the Spirit and out of the flesh,
You'll see things with clear eyes, anew and fresh.
You are so wrong, can't tell ya, mate
On even simple things like 'ProCreate'
And now you've put God in a Can, to be contained,
Mike, from that i would think you'd have abstained.
The heavenly body that's mentioned in Scripture:
Metaphorical rendering, a Spiritual picture.
So much wrong, really bad ideas
Built up from false beliefs over the years
You think you're a leader, a veritable master
But you just hastening your spiritual death, faster and faster.
Stop where you're at, check what you're handling
First gain Scriptural truths and Spiritual understanding

[kerwin]

To all,

Are you discussing the unseen worlds, spiritual realms?

[shimmer]

Mike, you should listen to the words of JustAskin, who, although often attacking people and annoying the heck out of them so it seems, in between all of that is truth. So pull it apart, it is there. You see, there are posters who have posts which appeal because they are kind, nice, welcoming, but mike, satan also appears as an angel of light. Is JustAskin appearing as an angel of light ? Hardly. Haha,

This Satan and Jesus thing is just a theory from what I can see, not proven right or wrong.

But JustAskin does have a nice side, if what is spoken is the truth, and fair enough too, hearing things which arent true gets annoying, especially when others follow it. I have been annoyed as well.

Mike, just so I know what you now believe, do you believe God procreates, do you believe God has a body of some type, Do you believe Jesus is 100% God…like begat like ?

[shimmer]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 13 2010,07:21)

To all, Are you discussing the unseen worlds, spiritual realms?

Hi Kerwin. It seems to be about that.

[kerwin]

To all,

In my understanding they are worlds just like ours but out of phase. After all Eden is in the third heaven according to Paul.

[JustAskin]

Kerwin, go away…this thread is not for you…

[shimmer]

JA, SORRY about that last post, what I was TRYING to say….That was a really good post you did.

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 12 2010,09:43)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 11 2010,23:04) HI JustAskin, You are hilarious with the verbal abusive nonsense! Ed J Very good, brother Ed.  Cheer him on.  Encourage his un-Christian behavior.   mike

Hi Mike,

Sorry; I didn't mean it as encouragement  

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

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