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Hello all,
I just had a thought here that I would like to add.When I tell my kids to do something like “unload the dishwasher” am I setting them up for failure or am I setting them up for obedience? I would be definitely setting them up for failure if, say, we did not own a dishwasher. That would be an unreasonable request. Still, anytime that we ask our kids to obey our “command” there is an opportunity for them to fail or succeed. If we tell them that they are to always obey us because we are their parents (I am not talking about abusive parents here), well, are we setting them up for failure since it is likely that sometime in their life they will disobey us? Our kids are going to fall short but they are also probably going to do it right more often than not. If they never got the command to obey us, they would not learn about authority and the protection that comes from heeding to that authority. Do you see how the command for our children to obey us is for their protection and benefit, not to be a harmful thing for them but something that will grow them towards respect for authority and for their ability to lovingly lead others.
I don't believe we should dwell on how God's command's set us up for failure but rather instead on how God's commands set us up for seeing God's love and patience towards us when we do fail, also, His commands sets us up for becoming more like Him by learning from our failures and realizing we are weak but He is strong. It must be possible to live in a way to overcome sin but it is very hard while we are living in these flesh bodies. The only reason it is possible is because of the power of the Holy Spirit that rules within us, if we surrender to it.
So, in summary, it is likely that we will fail from time to time and I would guess that even the most righteous do as well. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't have been told not to sin. That command to not sin gives us a perfect goal. God doesn't set us up to fail but gives us opportunity to go towards something that is most worthy for our own benefit. When we fall short, He picks us back up and we mature and continue to press on towards the perfect goal all the while learning how to die daily to the fleshly desires and surrender to the guidance of the indwelling Holy Spirit at work within us.
There are always two ways to look at things. In this case of God commanding us to not sin, we can see it as a worthy goal to go towards, or as impossible and dwell on how we can never live up to it and how unfair that it was even commanded of us. Is it possible to be without sin in our lives from here on out? I doubt it to be likely but at the same time it must be possible otherwise the Holy Spirit would be deficient and incapable of strengthening us and leading us in a sinless life. That is why we press on and not give up. Let us rejoice in our small steps of victory which takes us in the right direction and not let our failures take us away from our goal of living without sin. Our salvation does not depend on our perfection but on Christ's perfection. The command for a sinless walk is for our benefit, it is not a curse. IMO
LU
Quote (gollamudi @ July 08 2009,20:58) Hi Mandy,
You have started a most sensitive area of debate of Christianity. “Go and sin no more” is the ultimate will of our God and Lord Jesus for any Christian. I do agree with our brothers and sisters here on how a Chrisitan can keep himself pure and holy by faith in Jesus and being led by the Spirit of God. If we can not be holy then there is no question of God asking us to be Holy as He is Holy. I understand to be holy in that way. If Jesus being complete man was Holy and sinless why not God make us Holy like him (Jesus). We are being made into the image of Christ day by day. Not that we have already achieved full stature of perfection. But certainly we are being transformed into his image as he was the perfect image of God the father. We need more discussion on this topic.May God lead us into all truth.
Love to you
Adam
Brother Adam,Yes, what you speak of is the Christian dogma. You have it down pat.
It is definitely an area that would be interesting to discuss further. I see Kathi has a lengthly post up on the topic, let's give it a read and see what insight she can share.
Love,
MandyQuote (Lightenup @ July 09 2009,08:47) Is it possible to be without sin in our lives from here on out? I doubt it to be likely but at the same time it must be possible otherwise the Holy Spirit would be deficient and incapable of strengthening us and leading us in a sinless life. That is why we press on and not give up.
Hi Kathi,You say, “Is it possible to be without sin in our lives…..I doubt it…..but….it must be possible otherwise the Holy Spirit would be deficient……that is why we don't give up.”
You see the obvious problem.
Hebrews 10:26
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.Love,
MandyQuote (Lightenup @ July 08 2009,16:47) Hello all,
I just had a thought here that I would like to add.When I tell my kids to do something like “unload the dishwasher” am I setting them up for failure or am I setting them up for obedience? I would be definitely setting them up for failure if, say, we did not own a dishwasher. That would be an unreasonable request. Still, anytime that we ask our kids to obey our “command” there is an opportunity for them to fail or succeed. If we tell them that they are to always obey us because we are their parents (I am not talking about abusive parents here), well, are we setting them up for failure since it is likely that sometime in their life they will disobey us? Our kids are going to fall short but they are also probably going to do it right more often than not. If they never got the command to obey us, they would not learn about authority and the protection that comes from heeding to that authority. Do you see how the command for our children to obey us is for their protection and benefit, not to be a harmful thing for them but something that will grow them towards respect for authority and for their ability to lovingly lead others.
I don't believe we should dwell on how God's command's set us up for failure but rather instead on how God's commands set us up for seeing God's love and patience towards us when we do fail, also, His commands sets us up for becoming more like Him by learning from our failures and realizing we are weak but He is strong. It must be possible to live in a way to overcome sin but it is very hard while we are living in these flesh bodies. The only reason it is possible is because of the power of the Holy Spirit that rules within us, if we surrender to it.
So, in summary, it is likely that we will fail from time to time and I would guess that even the most righteous do as well. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't have been told not to sin. That command to not sin gives us a perfect goal. God doesn't set us up to fail but gives us opportunity to go towards something that is most worthy for our own benefit. When we fall short, He picks us back up and we mature and continue to press on towards the perfect goal all the while learning how to die daily to the fleshly desires and surrender to the guidance of the indwelling Holy Spirit at work within us.
There are always two ways to look at things. In this case of God commanding us to not sin, we can see it as a worthy goal to go towards, or as impossible and dwell on how we can never live up to it and how unfair that it was even commanded of us. Is it possible to be without sin in our lives from here on out? I doubt it to be likely but at the same time it must be possible otherwise the Holy Spirit would be deficient and incapable of strengthening us and leading us in a sinless life. That is why we press on and not give up. Let us rejoice in our small steps of victory which takes us in the right direction and not let our failures take us away from our goal of living without sin. Our salvation does not depend on our perfection but on Christ's perfection. The command for a sinless walk is for our benefit, it is not a curse. IMO
LU
Hi KathiExcellent, and very sound!
Blessings WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2009,18:03) Hi Not 3,
Sin is often invisible to us.
Praise God that he chooses to overlook it.
What's with the Hebrew's verse then?I'm hearing a lot of, “Well, if we sin it's okay….even the best of us will do it from time to time…”. But that isn't what the Hebrews passage is saying? That isn't what Jesus said (..go and sin no more…).
There seems to be a double standard?
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 09 2009,00:57) Quote (Lightenup @ July 09 2009,08:47) Is it possible to be without sin in our lives from here on out? I doubt it to be likely but at the same time it must be possible otherwise the Holy Spirit would be deficient and incapable of strengthening us and leading us in a sinless life. That is why we press on and not give up.
Hi Kathi,You say, “Is it possible to be without sin in our lives…..I doubt it…..but….it must be possible otherwise the Holy Spirit would be deficient……that is why we don't give up.”
You see the obvious problem.
Hebrews 10:26
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.Love,
Mandy
Hi Mandy,
Regarding Hebrews 10:26, I have copied and pasted Matthew Henry's commentary. He seems to be saying that the sin referred to is the unpardonable sin. See what you think.V. Having mentioned these means of establishment, the apostle proceeds, in the close of the chapter, to enforce his exhortations to perseverance, and against apostasy, by many very weighty considerations, v. 26,27, &c.
1. From the description he gives of the sin of apostasy. It is sinning wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, sinning wilfully against that truth of which we have had convincing evidence. This text has been the occasion of great distress to some gracious souls; they have been ready to conclude that every wilful sin, after conviction and against knowledge, is the unpardonable sin: but this has been their infirmity and error. The sin here mentioned is a total and final apostasy, when men with a full and fixed will and resolution despise and reject Christ, the only Saviour,—despise and resist the Spirit, the only sanctifier,—and despise and renounce the gospel, the only way of salvation, and the words of eternal life; and all this after they have known, owned, and professed, the Christian religion, and continue to do so obstinately and maliciously. This is the great transgression: the apostle seems to refer to the law concerning presumptuous sinners, Num 15:30,31. They were to be cut off.
2. From the dreadful doom of such apostates. (1.) There remains no more sacrifice for such sins, no other Christ to come to save such sinners; they sin against the last resort and remedy. There were some sins under the law for which no sacrifices were provided; but yet if those who committed them did truly repent, though they might not escape temporal death, they might escape eternal destruction; for Christ would come, and make atonement. But now those under the gospel who will not accept of Christ, that they may be saved by him, have no other refuge left them. (2.) There remains for them only a certain fearful looking for of judgment, v. 27. Some think this refers to the dreadful destruction of the Jewish church and state; but certainly it refers also to the utter destruction that awaits all obstinate apostates at death and judgment, when the Judge will discover a fiery indignation against them, which will devour the adversaries; they will be consigned to the devouring fire and to everlasting burnings. Of this destruction God gives some notorious sinners, while on earth, a fearful foreboding in their own consciences, a dreadful looking for it, with a despair of ever being able either to endure or escape it.
(from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible, PC Study Bible Formatted Electronic Database Copyright © 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All Rights reserved.)
I hope that helps,
KathiTo all: Is it possible that the Churches have misconstruded what sin actually is? Is what is considered a sin against God an action or deed? Or is sin an error of thought or belief? Is it possible, pertaining to the woman brought to Jesus that the act she committed was not sin? One of two things happened in that incidence. According to the law she was to be stoned for conviction of that act. She was caught in the very act so there is no question of guilt. Jesus did not condemn her for her deed. If it was a sin against God to do what she did then he broke the law of God. He obviously did not follow the Jewish law. So what could it be? In Bible translations as far as I know, conjunctions were put in by the translator. The word “and” could just as correctly been translated as “in”. Go in sin no more may have been saying, go and don't think what you do is a sin unto God. Maybe what you do in life is not a sin against God. If there is no judgement in Christ then how could we be judged. If Jesus took away our sin by his blood then there is no sin! Please don't hate me, just answer the questions. Thank you, in peace, TK
Hi Brothers and Sisters,
Don't blame me to point out that the passage under debate taken from Jn 8: 1-11 was not in the Original version of the Fourth Gospel as per many N.T Scholars. I hope we are not debating on a developed story than a historical happenning. What I understand from the Scriptures is the holiness or righteousness we achieve is only the imputed one by God the Father by the faith in Jesus Christ but not the earned holiness or righteousness because there is no one who can be righteous before the Holy God..IMOPlease think over
AdamHey Adam: I didn't know that the scripture about the woman and Jesus was not in all versions. I agree lets not squabble over a questionable passage. Yet the necessity of testing the doctrines of sin is still very necessary. I have a very different viewpoint that I would like to test with knowledgeable people, thats why I'm on this site. One thing I saw about sin doctrines was that people were comming to God by faith in what Jesus did for us, not by works or deeds of any kind, just by faith in his free gift! Well if you are made clean and free from sin by faith, then how can you fall away from God by doing something? I also saw that in the beginning, in the Garden of Eden, God never mentioned sin! God set before Adam, life and death, or good and evil and Adam chose good and evil. The ground was cursed because of what Adam chose, God did not curse it. Still no sin mentioned! In the fourth chapter of Gen. Adam knew his wife and she birthed him two sons and said,”I have gotten a man from the Lord”! I believe the term there was reffering to Adam as Lord. After the boys were grown into young men they brought offerings unto Lord Adam. God had not asked for sacrifices or offerings at that time and there was no Law in effect. Adam was the Law. Adam rejected one of the offerings and said, “if thou doest well shalt thou not be accepted and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door” This was a declaration of a man as to the term sin. From that point manmade sin has been the crux of all religious teaching. Passed down from generation to generation in the religious works of man. Good works, and God is happy or bad works and God will kill you. This became the worlds mindset. That religious world was in error/sin. They were thinking wrong. They were lost in this error until Jesus came and said wash away that old thinking by the washing of the Spirit words of God. Wash away the error of thought that you are in sin. Wash away that sin consciousness. Wash away that darkness. I am the way to the Truth of God which is light. So, sin was actually a man made term for doing bad and passed down through generations as punishable by God. Now Jesus says you are clean. If you believe it and think clean, you are clean. If you think you are unclean you will do and be unclean. You are what you believe yourself to be. This is just for honest thinking, peace to all, TK
To all! Let me give you my two cents. I was told by a Minister that the Unpardonable sin , is the sin not repented of. If we sin willingly that is certainly a big offence to God, who is merciful and will forgive our sin's if we ask for forgiveness of that sin, through Jesus Christ our Mediator. Some believe since Christ has died for our sin's that we do not have to go to the Throne of God, and confess that sin. I do not believe it is automatic. I do not believe however that if we don't grasp or do not understand a Scripture that it is a sin. God has to reveal all truths to us. And to some of us, He lets us wait. I can give you an example. My Husband has educated Himself in Ancient History and, I am not that fortunate to have a great memory. So He understands Prophecy, which I lack. So am I sinning then? No not as far as I can see.
Peace and Love IreneMatthew 20:1-16
For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 10 2009,06:32) Hi GM,
Do you now believe you can follow Jesus and yet discard whatever scriptures offend ypu?
Hi brother Nick,
It is not me alone who is offended by the forgeries in our Bible but there is a cloud of witnesses in Christianity who seek the truth. Nothing can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.Peace to you
AdamYes,we all mess up and sin. But when your a christian you dont just go out and do sinful things on person. And when we except Christ as our Saviour, we are getting rid of our old fleshly life and starting a spiritual life. We sre going to mess up, if we didnt we would be God too. But the stronger you grow in the word, and put it into your heart, the holy Spirit is what starts guiding you, and it lets you know whats right and wrong, before you even do it,and how to treat others. Alot of people think we stand in front of God on judgment day for our sins, which is true, we will be judged for our sins, but they have been forgiven when you excepted jesus into your heart, and started your knew life in him. But we are also judged for what we have done for him.
Hi KAT,
I am sure you will show us from scripture that accepting Jesus in your heart saves anyone.
Peter told us the way at Pentecost .
Nothing has changedRomans 10; 9-11 If you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord; and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, “YOU WILL BE SAVED”.For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and ARE SAVED! anyone who trust in him will never be put to shame. Didnt you read the post i ask you to?
Hi Kat,
Did you think Rom10 offers another new way and that Peter's words at pentecost are now outdated?
That is not the way of our God, Who is not of confusion but of peace.The book of Romans is not written to the unsaved telling them how to be saved.
Read Romans 1 and you will see it is written to those who had already walked through the door of Christ.
But they were Jews and wanted to go back to Jewish ways like the Galatians so Paul was encouraging them in Rom 10 to start walking in the Spirit.He said the same thing in other words to the foolish backsliding Jewish convert Galatians in Gal5 as the way of the Law and works was now closed to them.
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