The Word

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 11 2014,11:03)

So the question can be “Can Adam himself be with Adam himself?” The answer is Yes!

The answer is “NO”, Keith.

Adam, the first man ever created, cannot possibly have been WITH Adam, the first man ever created.

That particular Adam could never have been with himself.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 11 2014,11:03)

So would this be a true statement Mike… “In the beginning was the man and the man was with man and the man was man.”

Would the second man you mentioned, the one who was WITH the first man, also BE the first man you mentioned?  Of course not.

The statement, “the man was with man” obviously refers to one particular man who was with a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT man.  It does not refer to a single entity being WITH himself.

So if that statement was written in Greek, where they don't use an indefinite article at all, we in English would 100% of the time change it to, “the man was with A man”, or, “the man was with ANOTHER man”, or something similar.

Do you agree with that last thing I just said, Keith?  Or do I need to go through all of the 8000 times in scripture where we DO add the indefinite article because Hebrew and Greek didn't use one?

See, that's the real point.  That all of the Trinitarian English translations ADD that indefinite article into the scriptures THOUSANDS of times – so the words make sense to us in our language.  It is only in John 1:1 that they refuse to do the very same thing they've done all throughout the rest of the scriptures.

And why is that, Keith?  Even the Trinitarian scholar Daniel Wallace says that John's selective use of the definite article in 1:1 keeps us from identifying the Word with “the person of God”.  

And the 25 Trinitarian scholars from NETNotes say that 1:1b (“the Word was with God”) rules out the possibility that the Word was “the person of God”.

Well……….. if the Word WASN'T “the person of God”, but he was called “theos”, then there is no choice but for him to have been A god who was with THE God.  Because they have already told us that the grammar of 1:1 eliminates the possibility that the Word was THE God he was with.

So if grammar and common sense tells us that the “adam” in your example wasn't actually THE Adam he was with – what other choice is there but for that second “adam” to have been a DIFFERENT “adam” who happened to have been with THE Adam?

Likewise, if the Word wasn't THE God that he was with, then what other choice is there but for the Word to have been a DIFFERENT god, who happened to have been with “THE God”?

I don't see anything “tricky” about my common sense understanding of John 1:1.  I do, on the other hand, find it very “tricky” that even Trinitarian sources TEACH US that the Word couldn't have been the God he was with in the beginning, but then end up concluding that he is “God” nonetheless.  

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 10 2014,18:43)

Hi MB, The Word became flesh and dwelt among us……… the WORD was God.

So which of the following happened?

1. God Almighty Himself became flesh?

2. The Word USED TO BE God Almighty Himself, but then changed and became something/someone OTHER THAN God Almighty Himself?

Which one, Nick?

Because if the Word was truly “God Almighty”, but then became flesh…….. what are the other options besides the two I listed?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 11 2014,12:54)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2014,23:41) Consider the King of Abyssinia, who also has a spokesman called “The Word”.  Tell me if “the word” means the same thing in both of the following examples: 1.  The Word of the King showed up late to work Saturday, so the king had to speak directly to some of his subjects. 2.  By the word of the king, the opposing nation was invaded. Can you see that the phrase “the word” means different things in the two examples?  Would you ever use #2 to prove that #1 doesn't refer to a living, breathing BEING?  Would you ever use #2 to prove that the Word and the King from #1 are the same, identical person or being? Mike, I do not see as you are getting the agent to primary relationship in those cases the agent acts according to the primary's commands.

Kerwin,

You cannot say “God is love as the Word is flesh”.

You can say “God is love as flesh is the Word”.

Or you can say, “Love is God as the Word is flesh”.

If you can't see this, then just do me a favor and stop using the “God is love” comparison altogether, okay?

In the meantime, please address the part I left in the quote box above.

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
God was not the Word.
The Word was God.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 11 2014,13:39)

Hi MB, The Spirit of God creates ps 104.30 Do you think there are two creators?

Psalm 104:30 KJV
Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Who does the word “thou” refer to in that verse, Nick?

And does that person send forth HIMSELF?

Did that person send forth something that then actually did the creating – so that the person who sent that thing didn't actually create anything at all?

Think those things out, and then give me direct answers.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 11 2014,17:38)

Hi MB, God was not the Word. The Word was God.

Mystery Babylon, Nick.

David was not the king. Instead, the king was David.

Please directly address the question I asked you. Here it is again:

So which of the following happened?

1. God Almighty Himself became flesh?

2. The Word USED TO BE God Almighty Himself, but then changed and became something/someone OTHER THAN God Almighty Himself?

Which one, Nick?

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
“God has visited His people” LK 7.16

“Our Father in heaven, hallowed be thy name” Mt 6.9

“Where can I go from your Spirit. From Your presence where can I flee” Ps 139.7

“'though He is not far from any one of us” Acts 17.27

Can you reconcile these verses?

God does not fit in your mind

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
NO and NO

[mikeboll64]

Okay, “NO” and “NO” answer the second and third question.

What about the first one? Who does the word “thou” refer to in Psalm 104:30?

Because if you can answer that question, then you'll know who exactly did the creating. The means by which He did it is not quite as important as knowing WHO did it.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 11 2014,18:04)

Hi MB, “God has visited His people” LK 7.16 “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be thy name” Mt 6.9 “Where can I go from your Spirit. From Your presence where can I flee” Ps 139.7 “'though He is not far from any one of us” Acts 17.27 Can you reconcile these verses? God does not fit in your mind

I can reconcile all of them, Nick.

Are these verses your way of telling me that you believe God Almighty Himself became flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of His own only begotten Son? YES or NO?

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
Does God live in you?

“for it is God Who is at work in you ..”Phil 2.13

If God does is God no longer in heaven but just in you?

[kerwin]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 12 2014,01:37)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 11 2014,13:51) WJ, Are you of the trinitarian tradition that believes “the word is God” is saying the word is qualitatively God? Hi Kerwin I believe that the very essence of what God is as Spirit, is exactly what Jesus is. There was a debate by a brother named Isa 1:18 and t8 a while back and he explains it best here…! Also the Net Bible has some good commentary found here… Just click on the verse John 1:1 and the number 3 and you will see the commentary at the bottom of the page for John 1:1c. Blessings! WJ

Wj,

Isaiah thinks the qualitative translation/interpretation has been debunked which is a surprise to me as I see even Trinitarian Scholars holding to it. That answers my question with a no. Thank you.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 12 2014,05:34)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 11 2014,12:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2014,23:41) Consider the King of Abyssinia, who also has a spokesman called “The Word”.  Tell me if “the word” means the same thing in both of the following examples: 1.  The Word of the King showed up late to work Saturday, so the king had to speak directly to some of his subjects. 2.  By the word of the king, the opposing nation was invaded. Can you see that the phrase “the word” means different things in the two examples?  Would you ever use #2 to prove that #1 doesn't refer to a living, breathing BEING?  Would you ever use #2 to prove that the Word and the King from #1 are the same, identical person or being? Mike, I do not see as you are getting the agent to primary relationship in those cases the agent acts according to the primary's commands. Kerwin, You cannot say “God is love as the Word is flesh”. You can say “God is love as flesh is the Word”. Or you can say, “Love is God as the Word is flesh”. If you can't see this, then just do me a favor and stop using the “God is love” comparison altogether, okay? In the meantime, please address the part I left in the quote box above.

Mike,

I would like to go through it all but it will take time for me to study and that seems to be in short supply of late.

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike…….. The LORD, YAHWEH ,who is our GOD, sent forth his spirit and created everything that exists. Now the LORD and His Spirit make up ONE Living being. Just as your flesh body with spirit in it make up ONE LIVING SOUL,

What you try to do is separate each part of the whole and say it another whole, instead of part of the whole. You need to do this in order to make the word in John 1:1 a separate “being” . It is like saying the heart of a man is not part of the man, it is a separate being. You do this also when you say your words and you are two separate being. PURE garbage, if that were the case then why are we going to give account for ever word we have spoken then. While you can say there are many parts that makes up a person , it quite another ting to say each part is a separate person. This is what you are doing and that spreads confusion.

Mike is God A spirit? According to Jesus He IS, does Spirits utter words, yes according scripture it does, THE SPIRIT of GOD , “SAID LET THERE BE.” . SO THE obvious conclusion is the are connected. Common sense 101 Mike.

Peace and love ……………………………….gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 12 2014,09:44)

Mike…….. the LORD and His Spirit make up ONE Living being. What you try to do is separate each part of the whole and say it another whole, instead of part of the whole.

Gene,

I agree that the Spirit of God is an actual part of the being of God. I don't believe that the literal words God speaks, nor His spokesman who is called “The Word of God”, are actual parts of the being of God.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 11 2014,20:30)

Hi MB, Does God live in you? “for it is God Who is at work in you ..”Phil 2.13 If God does is God no longer in heaven but just in you?

Nick,

I have pending questions that you need to answer before asking me more questions of your own.

Do you believe that the entire being of God Almighty became flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of His own only begotten Son?  YES or NO?

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
I presume your answer was no.
Jesus prayed to Him IN HEAVEN

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
He manifested all the powers and graces and gifts that his Father gave him.
He fully represented the nature of God on earth by the Spirit.

[NickHassan]

Hi MB
Since your questions must have precedence
“Do you believe that the entire being of God Almighty became flesh and dwelled on earth”

That is a bit silly considering God was in heaven

” …with the glory of His own only begotten Son?” ??

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 12 2014,05:03)

So the question can be “Can Adam himself be with Adam himself?” The answer is Yes!

In English we often use capitals where the Greek uses the definite article.

“Can adam himself be with Adam himself? Yes. A man can be with THE Man.

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