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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 16 2012,09:44) To all……..”.If the “Spirit” of Him (God) that raised Christ from the dead Dwell in you “IT” (the Spirit) Shall raise you “MORTAL” (dead bodies) also”. Spirits are not Mortal only physical bodies are. This show it is Physical resurrection that must take place in order for us to continue to live after we die or fall asleep as some put it . The reason it is said to fall asleep is because that same body will be awakened, meaning the same exact DNA will be regenerated. As long as our DNA remains we can be regenerated again . IMO peace and love…………………………………….gene
MORTAL BODY'S???Terricca…………..Mortal Bodies mean “DEAD” Bodies.
Rom 8: 11….> But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the “DEAD” dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from th “DEAD” shall also “quicken” (bring to life) your “MORTAL” (dead) Bodies , by his Spirit that dwells in you.
Can't get anymore clearer then that, even a simpleton should be able to understand that Pierre. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………gene
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 14 2012,18:36) Quick question: When Jesus appeared, was this prior to his raising to Heaven? I think he had not yet gone to the Father. If so, then this suggests that he was raised to the Earth in his physical suit. And after he was raised to Heaven, we know from the Book of Revelation that his hair is as white as snow, face brighter than the sun, and legs like glowing metal. That is certainly not how he looked when he appeared to the disciples. Perhaps he looked like that when he was transfigured though.
Yes, it was prior to his going to heaven. And yes, he was raised with the very same flesh body he died with – hence Thomas putting his hands in the wounds.But Jesus is NO LONGER in a flesh body. The only logical assumption I can come up with is that Jesus' flesh body was TRANSFORMED into the glorious spiritual body he now has upon his ascension to heaven – per Phil 3:21, where Paul hopes for his own flesh body to be TRANSFORMED; and 1 Cor 15, where we are told that flesh cannot inherit God's Kingdom.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 14 2012,18:47) It could be instead, as you seem to surmise, that the angel used his literal and material sword and not his wondrous powers.
And therein is my point, Kerwin. For the angel's literal sword to be a weapon – or even a threat – it must be able to “touch” (do harm to) a human being.That shoots your theory down.
Furthermore, Jesus didn't perform a “test” as you imagine. Nor did he say that angels can't be touched or can't eat food. These are things you are reading into the teaching. The teaching itself, as Pierre has pointed out, is that angels don't have flesh and bone – nothing more.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 16 2012,22:15) Terricca…………..Mortal Bodies mean “DEAD” Bodies. Rom 8: 11….> But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the “DEAD” dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from th “DEAD” shall also “quicken” (bring to life) your “MORTAL” (dead) Bodies , by his Spirit that dwells in you.
Can't get anymore clearer then that, even a simpleton should be able to understand that Pierre. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………gene
gmortal body means a body that can and will die in time
Mortality is the condition of being mortal, or susceptible to death; the opposite of immortality. Yes our bodies are mortal. But they are not rotting in the ground yet.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 16 2012,22:31) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 14 2012,18:47) It could be instead, as you seem to surmise, that the angel used his literal and material sword and not his wondrous powers.
And therein is my point, Kerwin. For the angel's literal sword to be a weapon – or even a threat – it must be able to “touch” (do harm to) a human being.That shoots your theory down.
Furthermore, Jesus didn't perform a “test” as you imagine. Nor did he say that angels can't be touched or can't eat food. These are things you are reading into the teaching. The teaching itself, as Pierre has pointed out, is that angels don't have flesh and bone – nothing more.
Mike,I am not following your reasoning. Perhaps I can puzzle it out when I am more awake.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 16 2012,22:31) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 14 2012,18:47) It could be instead, as you seem to surmise, that the angel used his literal and material sword and not his wondrous powers.
And therein is my point, Kerwin. For the angel's literal sword to be a weapon – or even a threat – it must be able to “touch” (do harm to) a human being.That shoots your theory down.
Furthermore, Jesus didn't perform a “test” as you imagine. Nor did he say that angels can't be touched or can't eat food. These are things you are reading into the teaching. The teaching itself, as Pierre has pointed out, is that angels don't have flesh and bone – nothing more.
Mike,Let us speculate that the angel of physically killed the Assyrians with his sword; as opposed to using his wondrous powers. It still does make your case as it merely infers that the sword and therefore the angel that wielded it was physical at that point of time.
The way Balaam's Ass behaved is circumstantial evidence the angel he faced was physical, even though Balaam could not see him at first.
Jesus' tests reveal that spirit beings cannot eat or be touched, while flesh and bone can be.
T,
Quote THE TRUTH OF WHAT HE SAID IS THAT SPIRIT BEINGS ” DO NOT HAVE FLESH AND BLOOD WITH BONES, Did the angels that visited Lot have flesh and bones? If not did the have physical bodies that they were able to eat and touch Lot?
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 18 2012,04:07) T, Quote THE TRUTH OF WHAT HE SAID IS THAT SPIRIT BEINGS ” DO NOT HAVE FLESH AND BLOOD WITH BONES, Did the angels that visited Lot have flesh and bones? If not did the have physical bodies that they were able to eat and touch Lot?
kdid they eat
and yes they could be seen and touched,and touch others (men)
if the had flesh and bones NO ONE CAN REALLY KNOW THAT UNTIL WE SEE ONE AND CHECK THEM OUT
Job 38:4-7
“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,
5 Who set its measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the line on it?
6 “On what were its bases sunk?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?If I am reading this right, the sons of God shouted for joy when God made the Earth.
So what form were these sons of God in if they praise God for making the Earth. Well if they are Heavenly Angels viewing Earth being created, then they are likely not living on that Earth as physical being and are likely to be spirits as we are told that they are ministering spirits elsewhere.
Then we read about how the sons of God had relations with the woman of men and had children with them. What form is needed to do that?
Genesis 6:4
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.Additionally we read that we do not know fully what we will become, but we know that we will be like Jesus having a body like his. We are also told that we will be like the angels too.
So what am I saying? That it appears that just as we partake of the physical first and then the spiritual, it appears there were sons of God who were spiritual who decided to take on physical and thereby left their abodes and got together with as many woman as they wanted.
Jude 1:6
And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.So it is hard to say for sure, but one possibility is that angels are spirits who can partake of physical bodies when they visit the physical Earth. Or maybe spiritual bodies have this physical state built in since the seen comes from the unseen meaning that the physical is not separate to spirtual, but is wholly contained within it.
So we could argue this way or that way, but the truth might be both this way and that way.
Jesus himself existed in the form of God and then partook of human flesh. Sure that was different as angels are likely not born as men, but it shows a pattern I think. That for us it is the physical first then the spiritual. For Jesus it was spirtual, physical, and back again, and for these rebel angels it was spirtual then physical, and for some holy angels spirtual, then physical, and then likely back again unless they remained on the Earth to this day. Perhaps spiritual can take on multiple forms by reason of being spiritual. Might explain why some people say that some fallen angels can look grotesque, and we are told they can pose as angels of light, or at least Satan can.
Again, I remind you that I think Paul said, when he spoke about us becoming like Jesus even though we was not fully aware of what we would become. So if Paul was vague on the subject, then it might not be too wise to say for sure that angels are only physical IMO. There is much more here when you investigate.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 17 2012,15:57) Mike, Let us speculate that the angel of physically killed the Assyrians with his sword; as opposed to using his wondrous powers. It still does make your case as it merely infers that the sword and therefore the angel that wielded it was physical at that point of time.
What about the cheruim with the flaming swords who guard the way to the tree of life?Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 17 2012,15:57) The way Balaam's Ass behaved is circumstantial evidence the angel he faced was physical, even though Balaam could not see him at first.
Are you aware of any physical, man-sized being that donkeys can see and humans can't?Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 17 2012,15:57) Jesus' tests reveal that spirit beings cannot eat or be touched, while flesh and bone can be.
Jesus didn't propose any “test”, Kerwin. He pointed out that spirit beings don't have flesh and bone. Anything beyond that teaching is being ADDED to the scripture by you.Mike,
Quote What about the cheruim with the flaming swords who guard the way to the tree of life? In reading it I understand by implications that the angels and their wondrous swords are a physical threat
Quote Are you aware of any physical, man-sized being that donkeys can see and humans can't? God hides whatever he chooses from those he chooses and reveals it to those he chooses. In this case he originally chose to hide the angel's presence from Balaam and reveal to his ass. Then Scripture literally states.
he later chose to open Balaam's eyes.Quote Jesus didn't propose any “test”, Kerwin. He pointed out that spirit beings don't have flesh and bone. Anything beyond that teaching is being ADDED to the scripture by you. “Touch me and see” is clearly a test.
Asking for meat in response to his students disbelief is also a test; though that implication is dependent on the first test. In Acts 1:3 Luke states Jesus gave many infallible proofs that he was alive. He is clearly speaking of chapter 24 of his former treatise, Acts 1:1, as it covers Jesus' resurrection.Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 19 2012,22:06) “Touch me and see” is clearly a test.
But why is this a precedent to all angels and the son for all time?
It isn't.Jesus had not yet gone to the Father.
He was raised up, but only to the Earth. He had yet to go to Heaven.
T8,
It is my understanding that the Paradise, and the tree therein, is presently located in the third heaven. From reading the account in Genesis I understand the Garden, and the tree of life within, to be both physical and spiritual in nature. Neither their physical or spiritual qualities are of this world.
The sons of God singing and shouting does not infer or imply any thing as even the souls of the dead, which are spirit in composition, Scriptures speaks of whispering from the ground. Given that the Garden has a physical and spiritual presence in heaven, it seems reasonable to conclude that the angels do to, especially since evidence shows they have both on earth.
I disagree with concluding that the descriptive title “sons of God” means angels when mentioned in the Pentateuch because it is used so in the book of Job. Elsewhere in the Pentateuch the children of Israel are called the children of the Most High.
There was two lines at time and one was Cain's and Eve explicitly called him “a man”, Genesis 4:1 and Scripture starts his bloodline with him, Genesis 4:17. The second line is Seth's which begins with God creating mankind, who he called Adam, Genesis '5:1.
The line of Seth is the type of the children of Israel in the time previous to the flood and the children of the most high were forbidden to marry unbelievers, Deuteronomy 7:3.
It is Seth's line and not Cain's that is associated with calling on the name of the Lord, Genesis 4:26.
You stated much and I have little time to respond. There seemed to have been a fall of angels that occurred before Jesus' birth, when Satan's tail swept a third out of heaven. Their fall appears to occurs at a similar time as the Serpent's and he fell in the Garden.
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 19 2012,14:40) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 19 2012,22:06) “Touch me and see” is clearly a test.
But why is this a precedent to all angels and the son for all time?
It isn't.Jesus had not yet gone to the Father.
He was raised up, but only to the Earth. He had yet to go to Heaven.
T8,Technically his students thought he was a ghost; but Scripture uses the word “spirit”. The only other beings that clearly appear to be spirit beings are certain spirits that appear to be demons and one of them claimed the ability to transform himself to a false prophecy in mouths of certain prophets.
I have my doubt about a literal transformation of his words as opposed to them symbolizing him tempting and then when sin is conceived, owning the prophets through their own desires.
I do not know for sure what happens off Scripture but circumstantial evidence reveals that things that are both physical and spiritual in nature also exist in the heavens.
If Paul says that for us it is first to the physical then spiritual, then this is the hope that I have. Redemption from this body of death to a body that doesn't compel me to sin, but is as perfect as the spirit that we are born of.
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 19 2012,15:48) If Paul says that for us it is first to the physical then spiritual, then this is the hope that I have. Redemption from this body of death to a body that doesn't compel me to sin, but is as perfect as the spirit that we are born of.
T8,Paul writes:
Romans 8:11
King James Version (KJV)11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
I hear that the Spirit of God quickened Jesus' body, so raising him from the dead, and will do the same for believers.
Applying Paul's words from 1 Corinthians 15, I hear that the non-Spirit-quickened mortal body is a soulish body and the quickened mortal body is a (Spirit)ual body.
The Earthly comes first and then comes the heavenly. The soulish body is Earthly and the (Spirit)ual body is heavenly. The soulish body is not quickened by the Spirit while the (Spirit)ual body is.
It is the Spirit nature that frees us from the being ruled by our soulish nature, Romans 6:22. That freedom is granted in this world; as Jehovah will do as he promised, Matthew 5:6; and death frees us all for the dead do not sin, Romans 6:7.
k
Quote and death frees us all for the dead do not sin, Romans 6:7. no more sins because our actions stop when we die,and we have paid the price of the sin of Adam,now we waite the resurrection
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 19 2012,02:06) In reading it I understand by implications that the angels and their wondrous swords are a physical threat.
And how can that be if spiritual beings and spiritual swords can't “touch” a human being?Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 19 2012,02:06) “Touch me and see” is clearly a test.
It is: TOUCH ME AND SEE THAT I AM COMPRISED OF FLESH AND BONE, WHICH SPIRITS DO NOT HAVE.Not: TOUCH ME AND SEE THAT I AM TOUCHABLE TO HUMAN HANDS, AND SPIRITS ARE NOT.
The first statement fits the scripture. The second relies on your imagination, and is NEVER said in any scripture.
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