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Jesus proposed two tests to determine whether a creature is composed of spirit or not.
The first of those tests is spoken of in these verses.
Luke 24
New American Standard Bible (NASB)36 While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and *said to them, “Peace be to you.” 37 But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. 38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
As you can see the first test is touch. A creature that cannot be touched is spirit; while one that can be is not. I know this test is a true test because Jesus my Lord proposed it; and God speaks through him.
The second of these tests are spoken of in these verses.
Luke 24
New American Standard Bible (NASB)41 While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” 42 They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; 43 and He took it and ate it before them.
As you can see the second test is eating. A spirit cannot eat. Like the first test, I know this test is a true test because Jesus my Lord proposed it; and God speaks through him.
This is the account of the angels that visited Lot.
Genesis 19
New American Standard Bible (NASB)1 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 And he said, “Now behold, my lords, please turn aside into your servant’s house, and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way.” They said however, “No, but we shall spend the night in the square.” 3 Yet he urged them strongly, so they turned aside to him and entered his house; and he prepared a feast for them, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.
It is clear Scripture declares the two angels ate and thus according to the Jesus' words in the second test demonstrated they were not spirit creatures.
Genesis 19
New American Standard Bible (NASB)4 Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter; 5 and they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may ]have relations with them.” 6 But Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the door behind him, 7 and said, “Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly. 8 Now behold, I have two daughters who have not had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and do to them whatever you like; only do nothing to these men, inasmuch as they have come under the shelter of my roof.” 9 But they said, “Stand aside.” Furthermore, they said, “This one came in as an alien, and already he is acting like a judge; now we will treat you worse than them.” So they pressed hard against Lot and came near to break the door. 10 But the men reached out their hands and brought Lot into the house with them, and shut the door.
It is clear that Scripture declares the two angels touched Lot as they pulled him in and shut the door; therefore passing the first true test to reveal they were not creatures of spirit.
How can anyone state that these angels are creatures of spirit when they demonstrated they were not when measured by the two tests of Jesus?
Isn't stating these two angels are creatures of spirit clear evidence that one does not believe both Scripture and our teacher Jesus?
Such an individual should repent and believe.
The Book of Enoch has an interesting take on this subject.
It talks of angels leaving their abode (bodies) and having sexual relations with the woman of men, even descendants, the Nephilim, which could suggest that they took on physical form.
There is a description in that book that indicates that angels can take on physical form at will.
Scripture says that angels are ministering spirits. And yet we know that angels that are described on Earth as very much looking like men, eating, and other things like that.
My guess is that just as the the seen comes from the unseen, a spiritual being has the ability to take different forms. We are after told that Satan can pose as an angel of light which indicates an ability to change his appearance perhaps.
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 11 2012,21:54) The Book of Enoch has an interesting take on this subject. It talks of angels leaving their abode (bodies) and having sexual relations with the woman of men, even descendants, the Nephilim, which could suggest that they took on physical form.
There is a description in that book that indicates that angels can take on physical form at will.
Scripture says that angels are ministering spirits. And yet we know that angels that are described on Earth as very much looking like men, eating, and other things like that.
My guess is that just as the the seen comes from the unseen, a spiritual being has the ability to take different forms. We are after told that Satan can pose as an angel of light which indicates an ability to change his appearance perhaps.
Hi T8,Jesus resurrected body had this capacity as well, and
He did say that in the resurrection we would be like the Angels.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgkerwin
Quote It is clear Scripture declares the two angels ate and thus according to the Jesus' words in the second test demonstrated they were not spirit creatures. so you do not believe scriptures when it says they are ANGELs right your test is fake ,what is more important is the mission of the ANGEL ,I never read that ANGELS COME DOWN FOR THE PURPOSE OF INTERTAINEMENT OF MEN,
Kerwin is reading his own imagination into the scriptures. There is no scripture that says spirit beings cannot “touch” flesh beings. Nor is there any scripture that would prohibit a spirit being from eating human food.
All one needs to do is consider the angel who slaughtered 185,000 Assyrians in one night. How could he do this without “touching” them? Or what threat would the sword have been in the case of Balaam and the donkey if the sword was a “spiritual” sword and couldn't touch or harm the donkey or Balaam anyway? Or what deterent would the angels swinging the swords to guard the entrence to Eden be if those spiritual swords coudn't touch a human being anyway?
There are many scriptures that Kerwin's conclusion overlooks.
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2012,17:45) kerwin Quote It is clear Scripture declares the two angels ate and thus according to the Jesus' words in the second test demonstrated they were not spirit creatures. so you do not believe scriptures when it says they are ANGELs right your test is fake ,what is more important is the mission of the ANGEL ,I never read that ANGELS COME DOWN FOR THE PURPOSE OF INTERTAINEMENT OF MEN,
T,My test is the test Jesus proposed to prove he was not a spirit. In stating my test is a fake you are saying his is as my test is not my own but it is the one instituted by Jesus, the Son of God. It is best to think long before responding.
T8,
I do not know much of the books of Enoch, of which there is at least three, but I do know that Scripture speaks of angels appearing and of being hidden from sight, even the sight of specific individuals. There is nothing that states they “can take on physical form” or that they did so.
All I can ascertain from the stories is that angels have some type of physical form and can “eat” food and that they appear and disappear.
It is plausible, that off the pages of Scripture angels are bodiless souls that are sometimes given physical bodies to complete missions. These “souls” would have to be a complete being in themselves, unlike human souls.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 15 2012,18:04) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2012,17:45) kerwin Quote It is clear Scripture declares the two angels ate and thus according to the Jesus' words in the second test demonstrated they were not spirit creatures. so you do not believe scriptures when it says they are ANGELs right your test is fake ,what is more important is the mission of the ANGEL ,I never read that ANGELS COME DOWN FOR THE PURPOSE OF INTERTAINEMENT OF MEN,
T,My test is the test Jesus proposed to prove he was not a spirit. In stating my test is a fake you are saying his is as my test is not my own but it is the one instituted by Jesus, the Son of God. It is best to think long before responding.
kyour test is for the birds,
the only thing you know for sure is that at that point and time Jesus was in the flesh ;that is all you can swear to to be true .
so your test is for your intertainement
k
Quote In stating my test is a fake you are saying his is as my test is not my own but it is the one instituted by Jesus were in scriptures did Jesus INSTITUTED THAT TEST
?Kerwin, I think you have a valid point. Jesus certainly said he was not a spirit when he appeared.
But we do not know the full picture from our perspective. If a spirit being can take on flesh at will, then that still leaves it open that Jesus has a spiritual body in Heaven, and on Earth is able to take on flesh at will. In other words the resurrected body may have properties to live in either realm.
So it could be that the spiritual body has a physical property inbuilt and is not engaged till it is in a physical environment.
There are many things that we are not taught the finer detail of.
I suggest that there are too many holes in the testimonies to teach with assurance and detail everything about the new body.
Remember that it is a mystery.
1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.1 Corinthians 15: 42-45
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
1 Timothy 3:16
Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.Philippians 3:21
who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.Quick question: When Jesus appeared, was this prior to his raising to Heaven? I think he had not yet gone to the Father.
If so, then this suggests that he was raised to the Earth in his physical suit. And after he was raised to Heaven, we know from the Book of Revelation that his hair is as white as snow, face brighter than the sun, and legs like glowing metal. That is certainly not how he looked when he appeared to the disciples. Perhaps he looked like that when he was transfigured though.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 12 2012,00:57) Kerwin is reading his own imagination into the scriptures. There is no scripture that says spirit beings cannot “touch” flesh beings. Nor is there any scripture that would prohibit a spirit being from eating human food. All one needs to do is consider the angel who slaughtered 185,000 Assyrians in one night. How could he do this without “touching” them? Or what threat would the sword have been in the case of Balaam and the donkey if the sword was a “spiritual” sword and couldn't touch or harm the donkey or Balaam anyway? Or what deterent would the angels swinging the swords to guard the entrence to Eden be if those spiritual swords coudn't touch a human being anyway?
There are many scriptures that Kerwin's conclusion overlooks.
Mike,You are assuming angels are non-material being that can touch material beings.
In these cases you mention the angels appear to use wondrous powers to accomplish their goal, so it does not tell us much about their bodies.
It could be instead, as you seem to surmise, that the angel used his literal and material sword and not his wondrous powers.
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 15 2012,06:29) k Quote In stating my test is a fake you are saying his is as my test is not my own but it is the one instituted by Jesus were in scriptures did Jesus INSTITUTED THAT TEST
?
T,Luke 24:39-43.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2012,22:58) Jesus proposed two tests to determine whether a creature is composed of spirit or not. The first of those tests is spoken of in these verses.
Luke 24
New American Standard Bible (NASB)36 While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and *said to them, “Peace be to you.” 37 But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. 38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
As you can see the first test is touch. A creature that cannot be touched is spirit; while one that can be is not. I know this test is a true test because Jesus my Lord proposed it; and God speaks through him.
The second of these tests are spoken of in these verses.
Luke 24
New American Standard Bible (NASB)41 While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” 42 They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; 43 and He took it and ate it before them.
As you can see the second test is eating. A spirit cannot eat. Like the first test, I know this test is a true test because Jesus my Lord proposed it; and God speaks through him.
This is the account of the angels that visited Lot.
Genesis 19
New American Standard Bible (NASB)1 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 And he said, “Now behold, my lords, please turn aside into your servant’s house, and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way.” They said however, “No, but we shall spend the night in the square.” 3 Yet he urged them strongly, so they turned aside to him and entered his house; and he prepared a feast for them, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.
It is clear Scripture declares the two angels ate and thus according to the Jesus' words in the second test demonstrated they were not spirit creatures.
Genesis 19
New American Standard Bible (NASB)4 Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter; 5 and they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may ]have relations with them.” 6 But Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the door behind him, 7 and said, “Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly. 8 Now behold, I have two daughters who have not had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and do to them whatever you like; only do nothing to these men, inasmuch as they have come under the shelter of my roof.” 9 But they said, “Stand aside.” Furthermore, they said, “This one came in as an alien, and already he is acting like a judge; now we will treat you worse than them.” So they pressed hard against Lot and came near to break the door. 10 But the men reached out their hands and brought Lot into the house with them, and shut the door.
It is clear that Scripture declares the two angels touched Lot as they pulled him in and shut the door; therefore passing the first true test to reveal they were not creatures of spirit.
How can anyone state that these angels are creatures of spirit when they demonstrated they were not when measured by the two tests of Jesus?
Isn't stating these two angels are creatures of spirit clear evidence that one does not believe both Scripture and our teacher Jesus?
Such an individual should repent and believe.
K39 See My hands and My feet
hE ALSO SAID “see “” AND TOUCH ,AND AGAIN YOU CAN NOT SAY THIS IS A TEST HE INSTITUDED IN YOUR DREAM PERUPS
THE TRUTH OF WHAT HE SAID IS THAT SPIRIT BEINGS ” DO NOT HAVE FLESH AND BLOOD WITH BONES,
WHY YOU THINK CHRIST LEFT THE WORD “BLOOD ” OUT OF HIS DESCRIPTION
WAS IT BECAUSE HE AD NO MORE BLOOD IN HIM T8,
If translated literally the fallen body is called a soulish body in 1 Corinthians 15 and the resurrected body is called a Spiritual body. We know the fallen body is a body of flesh and blood and that the soul is said to be both in the blood and to give it life. We also know Jesus inferred his resurrected body was flesh and bone when he meant the Eleven plus two as they sat at their meal. We do not know what happened off Scripture, though we con speculate about it.
T,
You cannot touch a spirit because it is non-material and so lacks flesh and bone. It is the same reason it cannot eat.
“Flesh and bone” is a way of speaking, which refers to the pre-fallen human body and relationship, Genesis 2:23. On the other hand, “Flesh and blood” refers to the mortal body as Cain's blood cried from the ground.
Genesis 4:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 15 2012,19:34) T, You cannot touch a spirit because it is non-material and so lacks flesh and bone. It is the same reason it cannot eat.
“Flesh and bone” is a way of speaking, which refers to the pre-fallen human body and relationship, Genesis 2:23. On the other hand, “Flesh and blood” refers to the mortal body as Cain's blood cried from the ground.
Genesis 4:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
kGe 2:23 The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”Quote You cannot touch a spirit because it is non-material and so lacks flesh and bone. It is the same reason it cannot eat. how would you know if you do not see him
have you ever seen an invisible being been touched or eathing,YOU DO NOT MAKE SENCE ,NOW YOUR SCRIPTURE GEN;2;23 ,WAS ADAM LYING OR DID HE SAY THE TRUTH ,IS THAT WHAT GOD USED TO MAKE OR CREATE EVE
HIS FLESH AND BONE ,AS A SOURCE,
SO GOD DID NOT MAKE A BLOOD TRANSFUSION RIGHT NOWAS ADAM WITHOUT BLOOD
NOIN CAIN CASE THE BLOOD OF HIS BROTHER WAS CRYING BECAUSE “HE KILLED HIM ” IT WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPEN IF HE WOULD HAVE DIED FROM OLD AGE,SO IT WAS CAIN ACTION AND NOT THE BLOOD OF ABEL THAT WAS THE FACTOR.(THIS IS THE FIRST REPORTED MURDER)
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 15 2012,11:32) Kerwin, I think you have a valid point. Jesus certainly said he was not a spirit when he appeared. But we do not know the full picture from our perspective. If a spirit being can take on flesh at will, then that still leaves it open that Jesus has a spiritual body in Heaven, and on Earth is able to take on flesh at will. In other words the resurrected body may have properties to live in either realm.
So it could be that the spiritual body has a physical property inbuilt and is not engaged till it is in a physical environment.
There are many things that we are not taught the finer detail of.
I suggest that there are too many holes in the testimonies to teach with assurance and detail everything about the new body.
Remember that it is a mystery.
1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.1 Corinthians 15: 42-45
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
1 Timothy 3:16
Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.Philippians 3:21
who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
T8…….Everything said there is our same body, “it” is sown in dishonor; “it” is raised in glory “it” is sown in weakness, “it” is raised in power, “it” is is sown a natural body, “it” is raised a spiritual body. Now what is the “it” mentioned their what is the “it's” referencing to? Obversely it is our BODIES themselves that is being described here.Mikes idea of the word “spiritual body” meaning a Spirit Body is wrong. Spirits have no bodies they are what is (IN) bodies. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene
To all……..”.If the “Spirit” of Him (God) that raised Christ from the dead Dwell in you “IT” (the Spirit) Shall raise you “MORTAL” (dead bodies) also”. Spirits are not Mortal only physical bodies are. This show it is Physical resurrection that must take place in order for us to continue to live after we die or fall asleep as some put it . The reason it is said to fall asleep is because that same body will be awakened, meaning the same exact DNA will be regenerated. As long as our DNA remains we can be regenerated again . IMO
peace and love…………………………………….gene
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