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LU, you need to be careful with your words for in your words are life and death.
If you say that YHWH is the God of this world, then you could quite well be indirectly implying that God is evil. Look what happened to the Pharisees. They said Jesus had a demon.We should also be careful to not do the following:
Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from the Lord. But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2012,07:09) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 18 2012,23:12) Here is another 'key' from John:
John 8:28
So Jesus told them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM, and that I do nothing on my own authority. Instead, I speak only what the Father has taught me.
Pierre,Kathi WANTS Jesus to have said, “then you will know that I am I AM”, because she IMAGINES that by uttering the most common pronoun/verb phrase in any language (I am), Jesus is SECRETLY claiming to be Jehovah.
But like I keep telling her, EVERY TIME Jehovah ever claimed to BE Jehovah in the OT, the Hebrew words were “I am I AM” – not just “I AM”.
But let's look at Kathi's version:
…..then you will know that I am Jehovah God Almighty, and, for some odd reason, even though I am God Almighty, I can do nothing on my own authority. Also, even though I am God Almighty, my own God, the Father, has to teach me what to speak to the humans.
Mikeyou are fighting the devil fight ,I mean the losing one ,you can not win with Kathy ,she is sold to her own way ,even has you prove with scriptures she still want her way ,not the truth of scriptures but her truth ,how can you win ???you can not win her to the truth ,she loves what she believe and may be she will die for it ,many will die with the mark of the beast ,look at Gene it is now 3 years and still in the first square where we started with,
PR 1:29 Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORDPR 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
PR 10:14 Wise men store up knowledge,
But with the mouth of the foolish, ruin is at hand.But through knowledge the righteous will be delivered.
PR 12:1 Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
But he who hates reproof is stupid.PR 13:16 Every prudent man acts with knowledge
PR 14:6 A scoffer seeks wisdom and finds none,
PR 14:7 Leave the presence of a fool,
Or you will not discern words of knowledge.
PR 14:18 The naïve inherit foolishness,
But the sensible are crowned with knowledge.
PR 15:2 The tongue of the wise makes knowledge acceptable,
But the mouth of fools spouts folly.and can go on for many scriptures yet ,but this is enough
T, we will be judged for every word that we say against another believer in God and his son. Careful.
Quote (2besee @ Dec. 20 2012,19:02) T, we will be judged for every word that we say against another believer in God and his son. Careful.
what you say is only half a truth ,you do not believe in God messenger Pauland so we do not believe in the same things right
YESQuote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2012,20:00) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 18 2012,17:55) Mike,
I am quite aware that you cannot make this confession:Because I inform you of this: there is no man who speaks by The Spirit of God and says, “Yeshua is damned”, neither can a man say, “Yeshua is THE LORD JEHOVAH”, except by The Spirit of Holiness.
I can confess exactly what the scripture ACTUALLY says: Jesus Christ is the one my God Jehovah made Lord over me. He is therefore my Lord.You are correct that neither I, nor anyone else, can say “Jesus is the LORD Jehovah” by any spirit of holiness – because it simply isn't the case. Nor were those words ever written by anyone inspired by God.
As for King Nebuchadnezzar, my point remains the same – whether or not he was an eternal king. And your claim has been nullified.
Mike,
You believe that Jesus is your lord (small l), not your Lord (capitol L), nor your LORD. You believe that Jesus is the lord of lords, not the Lord of lords because that would be YHWH and you don't believe that Jesus is YHWH.Mike, what is Jesus theos 'of' and what is Jesus kyrious 'of' according to you?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2012,20:09) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 18 2012,23:12) Here is another 'key' from John:
John 8:28
So Jesus told them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM, and that I do nothing on my own authority. Instead, I speak only what the Father has taught me.
Pierre,Kathi WANTS Jesus to have said, “then you will know that I am I AM”, because she IMAGINES that by uttering the most common pronoun/verb phrase in any language (I am), Jesus is SECRETLY claiming to be Jehovah.
But like I keep telling her, EVERY TIME Jehovah ever claimed to BE Jehovah in the OT, the Hebrew words were “I am I AM” – not just “I AM”.
But let's look at Kathi's version:
…..then you will know that I am Jehovah God Almighty, and, for some odd reason, even though I am God Almighty, I can do nothing on my own authority. Also, even though I am God Almighty, my own God, the Father, has to teach me what to speak to the humans.
Quote EVERY TIME Jehovah ever claimed to BE Jehovah in the OT, the Hebrew words were “I am I AM” – not just “I AM”. That is so not true, Mike!
Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'”Quote (t8 @ Dec. 20 2012,05:35) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 19 2012,07:39) If your confession is that Jesus is Lord, what you mean is that He is lord because you teach that He is not Lord of lords since that would be YHWH. Get it?
Fair enough. You also say he is Lord, but only when challenged. “No one can say Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit of God”.I am still highly suspicious that you say “Jesus is LORD” and only say “Jesus is Lord” when pressed on that issue.
Anyone can say anything for whatever reason, but I think this is more about what you say in your usual speech as a result as to what you believe in your heart.
Because you say that Jesus Christ is LORD, you never for that reason say that he is Lord. It is not part of your teaching or confession. And the fact that you would have to say that YHWH is Lord as well if Jesus is, is quite worrying. There is more to this LU than you think. It is about what Spirit you are of.
t8,
Seriously you need to pay attention! You give the scriptures of a blinded mind new life!!Quote Because you say that Jesus Christ is LORD, you never for that reason say that he is Lord. It is not part of your teaching or confession. My signature is my confession and in my signature I state that the Lord of lords is YHWH the Son. You ought to read it. It is in nearly every post of mine.
My signature:
“Jehovah our God is the unity of the God of gods (Jehovah,the Father) and the Lord of lords (Jehovah,the Son). Deut 10:17Worship the Father, the Son and their Holy Spirit as the fullness of Jehovah, who alone as a unity, was the creator of heaven and earth.”
Quote It is about what Spirit you are of. Maybe you ought to worry about your own blindness because what you say is not my confession is actually confessed in my signature in every post to you. Hmmm…you are tipping your hand of sloppy reading and comprehending.
Mike, can you set t8 straight that it is my COMMON confession that Jesus is the Lord of lords? Please??
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2012,20:20) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 18 2012,17:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 18 2012,16:39) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 18 2012,11:39) A sidenote in regards to your other post:
Those 'faithful followers' are from the world.
John 17:16
They do not belong to the world just as I do not belong to the world.
They are/were still IN the WORLD.
We are physically and fleshly “of this world”, Kathi. But the flesh counts for nothing. Spiritually, we are to NOT be “of this world”.I have been reading the points you've been making to t8 on this subject, and they have been some scripturally valid points.
I have always understood 4:4 to be speaking about Satan as the “god of this world” – but part of that could be because that's the FIRST way I ever understood those words. And THAT could be because virtually every English translation has a lower case “g” in “god” in that verse – including the first version I ever read.
So, in that sense, my current understanding quite possibly could be biased by English translators.
Jack brought this point up years ago, and I'll tell you what I told him: We can't really know for sure (because of the valid points both you and t8 have shown in this thread).
Why did the “god of this age” discussion come up in the first place?
Thanks Mike for saying that I have made valid points on this.Quote (t8 @ Dec. 20 2012,05:34) And the reason this was ever brought up was to prove that theos and elohim can apply to others besides YHWH. Whereas Trinitarians and Binitarians say that only the Father and Jesus, and/or the Spirit are God. If Satan is the theos of this world, then that casts doubt on Jesus being YHWH by reason of being called theos. But even then, Thomas quote could well have been talking to Jesus and the Father as he used 2 definite articles, so it might not even need to be established that others can be theos for the purpose of this debate.
So far I have show t8 three verses that show that Jesus is 'the theos' too and he has not admitted it. If satan is the god of this world, t8 has no problem defending that satan is 'the theos' but when it comes to Jesus, he wants to change it to mean the Father.satan must be very pleased with your reluctancy to say that Jesus is 'the theos,' t8 and your insistence that satan is 'the theos' must please him greatly!
Very telling!
Quote (2besee @ Dec. 20 2012,08:02) T, we will be judged for every word that we say against another believer in God and his son. Careful.
Very true!!
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 19 2012,18:58) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 19 2012,11:12) Here is another 'key' from John:
John 8:28
So Jesus told them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM, and that I do nothing on my own authority. Instead, I speak only what the Father has taught me.John wrote the gospel of John because the corruption that was already advancing needed to be shown the truth of the divinity of Christ.
KathyJn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
what that mean ? When ye have lifted up the Son of man,…
who is the “YE”
?
Pierre,
The 'ye' are the Pharisees (Jews) and 'lifted up' is speaking about putting Jesus up on a cross from what I can tell.You ought to read that whole chapter and check out what all Jesus is telling the Pharisees. He is not saying things a normal man would say.
The Jews understood that there were two powers to YHWH, one being the 'Word of God' that appeared many times in the OT.
Jesus is speaking to them like He is that 'second power of YHWH…the Word of God. That 'Word of God' is understood to be YHWH to the Jews.t8,Dec. wrote:[/quote]
Quote Charles if you are arguing that Jesus Christ is the only true God, then by reason of that, you are excluding the Father. t8,
I'm afraid you didn't understand the words:
THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST.
THAT IS A CONFIRMATION THAT BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON ARE UNIFIED IN ONE MYSTICAL BODY.
Read and reflect:
John17:1 THESE things Jesus spoke, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said: Father, the hour is come,
GLORIFY THY SON, THAT THY SON GLORIFY THEE
NOTICE THEY BOTH GLORIFIED EACH OTHER FOR THE SIMPLE REASON, THAT THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT,THE FATHER ACQUIRED ALL THE FLESH ATTRIBUTES THROUGH HIS SON, AND THE SON ACQUIRED ALL GOD’S ATTRIBUTES THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT FROM THE FATHER AND BECAME :
ONE MYSTICAL BODY.BOTH FATHER AND SON, BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH,
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he may give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him.
SO JESUS' SPIRIT PURPOSELY WAS USED BY THE FATHER TO CREATE OUR MATERIAL WORLD,AND EVENTUALLY BECAME MAN,IN ORDER THAT ALL OUR WORLD ALTHOUGH EVIL WAS RECONCILED ONTO HIM ON THE CROSS,AND JESUS, ON RESURRECTION, BECAME THE CARNAL GOD,THE ONLY GOD IN FLESH,IN ORDER TO GIVE ETERNAL LIFE ENTIRELY!!!
3 Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
NOW HERE IT IS CONFIRMED THAT ONLY JESUS IS THE ETERNAL LIFE FOR US HUMANS, SINCE HE IS THE ONLY GOD IN FLESH, AND THROUGH THIS, THEY, GOD'S ENEMIES WOULD HAVE NO DOUBT THAT THE FATHER THROUGH JESUS THOUGH ,IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST, BOTH SPIRIT OF THE FATHER, AND FLESH OF JESUS CHRIST.WHO WAS SENT PURPOSELY FOR THIS ACHIEVEMENT. THE FATHER AS A SPIRIT ,WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO ACHIEVE THIS!!!
THIS IS THE FUNDAMENTAL CONCEPT OF :
FATHER AND SON PROCESS
THE SPIRITUAL CREATURES WERE CREATED THROUGH THE SON,WHILE THE SON WAS IN THE FATHER, AND THE CARNAL CREATURES WERE CREATED THROUGH THE SON,WHILE THE FATHER THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT,WAS IN THE SON.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
HERE AGAIN JESUS CONFIRMED IT:
I HAVE GLORIFIED YOU ON EARTH, I HAVE FINISHED THE WORK WHICH YOU GAVE ME TO DO.
AND THIS WORK NOT JUST THOSE THREE YEARS HE WALKED ON EARTH, BUT FROM THE VERY BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF OUR EARTH. GENESIS 1:3
THEN HE ASSERTED BY SAYING:
5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee.
GLORIFY YOU ME, O FATHER, WITH YOURSELF.
SO ONE GLORY FOR BOTH, THEREFORE UNIFICATION OF THE FATHER AND THE SON, HOW THEY WERE BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.
BUT INSTEAD OF TWO SPIRITS, JESUS IS THE FLESH SUBSTANCE, AND THE FATHER IS THE SPIRIT SUBSTANCE. FOR ETERNITY.
ALSO BEFORE THE WORLD WAS,
THE SON WAS IN THE FATHER, BUT NOW THE FATHER IS IN THE SON.
SINCE HE IS THE ONLY OFICCIAL VISIBLE SPIRIT BEING IN FLESH FOR ALL THE ENTIRE CREATION TO SEE AND VERIFY THAT :
JESUS CHRIST, IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD, IN BOTH FLESH AND SPIRIT.
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
t8,Dec. wrote:[/quote]
64Quote Charles if you are arguing that Jesus Christ is the only true God, then by reason of that, you are excluding the Father. t8,
I'm afraid you didn't understand the words:
THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST.
THE ONLY TRUE GOD, that is one being SPIRIT
AND JESUS CHRIST. that is another being FLESH
BUT THEY BECAME ONE BEING
GLORIFY ME O FATHER SO THE SON MAY GLORIFY YOU!!! ONE GLORY FOR BOTH
ONE BEING THE FATHER IN THE SON,
THEREFORE THE SPIRIT IN THE FLESH!!!
IN THE SAME GLORY THAT I HAD BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, WITH YOU.
BEFORE THEY WERE ONE BEING:
THE SON IN THE FATHER.BOTH SPIRITS!!!
SO THEY WERE TWO TO BECOME ONE!!!
THE ONLY TRUE GOD,AND JESUS CHRIST
GENESIS 2:24 Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and THEY SHALL BE TWO IN ONE FLESH.
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 20 2012,04:34) And the reason this was ever brought up was to prove that theos and elohim can apply to others besides YHWH.
t8,Like I told Kathi, I have always understood Paul to be talking about Satan in 2 Cor 4:4. There are, however, scriptures that speak of Jehovah causing people to be ever seeing, but never understanding, etc. Kathi has posted some of those scriptures.
But if the reason of the discussion is to decide whether or not Satan is also called a god in scripture, then one need look no further than 2 Kings 1:3 to see that Satan is called a god by none other than Jehovah Himself.
(Actually, he is called “THE god of Ekron” – which nullifies Kathi's “who else is called THE god?” argument.)
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 20 2012,22:58) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2012,20:00) I can confess exactly what the scripture ACTUALLY says: Jesus Christ is the one my God Jehovah made Lord over me. He is therefore my Lord.
Mike,
You believe that Jesus is your lord (small l), not your Lord (capitol L), nor your LORD. You believe that Jesus is the lord of lords, not the Lord of lords because that would be YHWH and you don't believe that Jesus is YHWH.
Huh? Read what I wrote in the quote box above, Kathi. Did I write “lord”, or “Lord”?And no, there is no reason that any particular Lord over other lords must, by necessity, be YHWH. That's just silly talk.
You are correct that I don't believe Jesus is YHWH. Unlike you, my beliefs are aligned with scripture, and so I believe that Jesus is the Son and Servant OF YHWH.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 20 2012,23:02) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) EVERY TIME Jehovah ever claimed to BE Jehovah in the OT, the Hebrew words were “I am I AM” – not just “I AM”. That is so not true, Mike!
Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'”
Huh?Where in that statement is Jehovah claiming TO BE Jehovah?
Kathi, do a word search for the exact phrase, “I am the LORD”. Then look at the Hebrew words. You'll see that each and ever time Jehovah said, “I am Jehovah”, the Hebrew words were “aniy yhwh”. The “aniy” part means “I am”. So EVEN IF the “yhwh” part means “I am” – like you insist it does – the complete phrase is still “I am I AM”.
The verse you quoted does not have Jehovah claiming to be Jehovah.
(Start with Genesis 15:7, which is the first instance of “I am the LORD” in the scriptures. Then check out the Hebrew of that phrase to see what I mean.)
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 20 2012,23:13) My signature is my confession…………. ………Worship the Father, the Son and their Holy Spirit as the fullness of Jehovah…….
Your signature and confession don't obey the words of the Lord you try to make into the God he serves.Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’ ”
We utter this exact same phrase to you, when YOU try to convince us to worship someone other than the ONE Jesus taught us to worship.
Pierre was simply telling you what Jesus told Peter: Get behind me Satan, for you have in mind the traditions of men, and not the instructions of God – or the one He made Lord over us.
mikeboll64,Dec. wrote:[/quote]
Quote We utter this exact same phrase to you, when YOU try to convince us to worship someone other than the ONE Jesus taught us to worship.
Mike,
Explain hereunder and tell me who is the God that the Father is referring to???
Thus saith the Lord: The labour of Egypt, and the merchandise of Ethiopia, and of Sabaim, men of stature shall come over to
THEE,
and shall be thins: they shall walk after
THEE,
they shall go bound with manacles: and they shall
WORSHIP THEE,
and shall make supplication to thee:
only
IN THEE IS GOD ,
and THERE IS NO GOD BESIDE THEE.
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
The verse is about the vassals of Israel bowing before and pleading to Israel, their master, because God is truly WITH them.
Israel is not actually called “god” in that verse, though.
Here is the NIV translation:
This is what the LORD says: “The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush, and those tall Sabeans—they will come over to you and will be yours; they will trudge behind you, coming over to you in chains. They will bow down before you and plead with you, saying, ‘Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other god.’”
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