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Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2012,07:40) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2012,17:39)
So then you agree with me and Jesus that all three of us have the same God?
Your 'God' is Jesus' creator before the ages.My God is Jesus Father before the ages AND Jesus…………
You've really said a mouthful this time, Kathi.
You have just admitted that your “God” is not only the God of Jesus (like Jesus himself said), but that God AND another.
Jesus, I, and the first disciples have but ONE God. You have created ANOTHER God for yourself, and ADDED HIM TO the God of Jesus, the disciples, and all true believers.
Doesn't that bother you?
Mike,
You may have one god but it isn't the God of Jesus. Jesus' God is not His creator.Btw, the disciples believed in the Father AND the Son too and both are 'the theos.'
Jesus said, “Believe in God, believe also in me.”
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 13 2012,18:39) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2012,07:35) Mike,
Moses passed on God's words.
Jesus speaks His and the Father's word. They are united in what they say and do. They act and speak as one God.
John 8:28
So Jesus said……… I do nothing on my own, but speak just what the Father has taught me.John 12:49
For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.John 14:10
The words I say are not my own, but my Father who lives in me does his work through me.Are you sure, Kathi?
Gill's Exposition of the Entire BibleFor I have not spoken of myself,…. As man, or as separate from his Father; his doctrine was not human, but divine, and therefore a rejection of it cannot escape notice at the future judgment:
but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment what I should say, and what I should speak; Christ, as man, had his mission, and commission, and his instructions from his Father to preach the Gospel unto men; he was anointed for it by the Holy Ghost; he was enjoined the preaching of it by his Father, and the several doctrines he published were delivered him by him; see John 8:28.
http://bible.cc/john/12-49.htmJesus was not making a teaching that He was some sort of puppet, but that what He said were the very words from His Father that His audience considered their God, and therefore, they need to heed His words and respect Him as the true Son of God that He is and was (as opposed to stoning Him or taking offense at what He said).
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2012,23:47) Mike,
You may have one god but it isn't the God of Jesus. Jesus' God is not His creator.
What does that mean exactly, Kathi? Is this point about Jesus being created all you have to “refute” my statement?Jesus has one God, right? And that one God is the Father, right? Well, the Father is also MY one God. So YES, Jesus and I have the same God.
Whether or not that God created Jesus shouldn't be affecting this discussion, Kathi.
I only want you to acknowledge the fact that JESUS said his God was also our God, and that YOU'VE created for yourself ANOTHER God to add to the One Jesus already said was both our God and his God.
I want you to acknowledge this fact, because I hope that in doing so, you will realize the blatant and huge error you are making, and perhaps repent and turn back to the One who is TRULY your ONLY God.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2012,23:55) Jesus was not making a teaching that He was some sort of puppet………
Who said “puppet”? The fact is that God spoke to us in many ways in the past. And most recently, God has spoken to us through His Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus isn't the God who was doing the speaking, but the spokesman who came to us to speak the words God told him to speak.Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2012,23:55) ……….what He said were the very words from His Father
Yep. He spoke the words of his Father and our Father, his God and our God.Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2012,23:55) ……..that His audience considered their God,
So the audience of Jesus never considered Jesus their God? They knew all along that his Father and God was also their Father and God? Didn't the Apostles and the disciples make up part of his audience?Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2012,23:55) ………they need to heed His words and respect Him as the true Son of God that He is and was
Agreed. We all need to heed the words of Jesus and respect him as the true Son of God that he is and was.As far as what Gill wrote:
Christ, as man, had his mission, and commission, and his instructions from his Father to preach the Gospel unto men;Moses, as man, had his mission, and commission, and his instructions from his Father to preach the Law unto men.
…..he was anointed for it by the Holy Ghost;
Moses was anointed for it by the Holy Spirit.
….he was enjoined the preaching of it by his Father
Moses was enjoined the preaching of the Law by his Father.
……and the several doctrines he published were delivered him by him;
And the several doctrines Moses published were delivered him by him.
I guess I'm not understanding how this quote from Gill was supposed to eliminate the fact that Jesus, just like Moses, was sent to certain people to speak the words of God to them.
They were both anointed men of God. They were both prophets. They were both spokesmen for God.
What exactly about Gill's words is supposed to tell me that Jesus spoke HIS OWN words, and NOT the words of his Father and God – like he himself clearly and many times told us he did?
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 14 2012,15:58) Mike did you change color
Nope. I'm still a lightly tanned caucasian male.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 14 2012,18:04) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2012,23:47) Mike,
You may have one god but it isn't the God of Jesus. Jesus' God is not His creator.
What does that mean exactly, Kathi? Is this point about Jesus being created all you have to “refute” my statement?Jesus has one God, right? And that one God is the Father, right? Well, the Father is also MY one God. So YES, Jesus and I have the same God.
Whether or not that God created Jesus shouldn't be affecting this discussion, Kathi.
I only want you to acknowledge the fact that JESUS said his God was also our God, and that YOU'VE created for yourself ANOTHER God to add to the One Jesus already said was both our God and his God.
I want you to acknowledge this fact, because I hope that in doing so, you will realize the blatant and huge error you are making, and perhaps repent and turn back to the One who is TRULY your ONLY God.
This might help, Mike:11. Jerome the presbyter, and a noted writer in this century, speaking of the Arians says,* “Let them understand, that they glory in vain of the testimony in which Wisdom speaks of being created in the beginning of the ways of God, and begotten and established; for if, according to them, he was created, he could not be begotten or born: if begotten or born, how could he be established and created?” And a little after he says, “God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, is a Father according to substance (or essence,) and the only begotten is not a Son by adoption, but by nature; whatsoever we say of the Father and the Son, this we know is said of the holy Spirit.” Here the creed of Damasus might be taken notice of, in which he says, “God has begot a Son, not by will nor by necessity, but by nature;” and in the explanation of it, it is said, “Not because we say the Son is begotten of the Father by a divine and ineffable generation, do we ascribe any time to him, for neither the Father nor the Son began to be at any time; nor do we any otherwise confess an eternal Father, but we also confess a co-eternal Son.” Also Ruffinus’s exposition of the apostles creed, which stands among Jerome’s works, “when you hear of a Father, understand the Father of a Son, the image of his substance; but how God begat a Son do not discuss, nor curiously intrude into the depth of this secret.*
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 15 2012,05:23) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 14 2012,15:58) Mike did you change color
Nope. I'm still a lightly tanned caucasian male.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 14 2012,18:23) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2012,23:55) Jesus was not making a teaching that He was some sort of puppet………
Who said “puppet”? The fact is that God spoke to us in many ways in the past. And most recently, God has spoken to us through His Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus isn't the God who was doing the speaking, but the spokesman who came to us to speak the words God told him to speak.Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2012,23:55) ……….what He said were the very words from His Father
Yep. He spoke the words of his Father and our Father, his God and our God.Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2012,23:55) ……..that His audience considered their God,
So the audience of Jesus never considered Jesus their God? They knew all along that his Father and God was also their Father and God? Didn't the Apostles and the disciples make up part of his audience?Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2012,23:55) ………they need to heed His words and respect Him as the true Son of God that He is and was
Agreed. We all need to heed the words of Jesus and respect him as the true Son of God that he is and was.As far as what Gill wrote:
Christ, as man, had his mission, and commission, and his instructions from his Father to preach the Gospel unto men;Moses, as man, had his mission, and commission, and his instructions from his Father to preach the Law unto men.
…..he was anointed for it by the Holy Ghost;
Moses was anointed for it by the Holy Spirit.
….he was enjoined the preaching of it by his Father
Moses was enjoined the preaching of the Law by his Father.
……and the several doctrines he published were delivered him by him;
And the several doctrines Moses published were delivered him by him.
I guess I'm not understanding how this quote from Gill was supposed to eliminate the fact that Jesus, just like Moses, was sent to certain people to speak the words of God to them.
They were both anointed men of God. They were both prophets. They were both spokesmen for God.
What exactly about Gill's words is supposed to tell me that Jesus spoke HIS OWN words, and NOT the words of his Father and God – like he himself clearly and many times told us he did?
Gill is telling you that when Jesus was a man, He was given teaching by God. Beforehand, the Son gave YHWH's Word to man, not as a man but as one that His audience considered to be YHWH.K
Quote He was given teaching by God. Beforehand, the Son gave YHWH's Word to man, not as a man but as one that His audience considered to be YHWH. what is this thing means
1)He was given teaching by God; how wen were why 2)Beforehand ;
3)the Son gave YHWH's Word to man
BUT CHRIST DID NOT TEACHED ANYTHING THAT WAS NOT ALREADY WRITTEN ?4)not as a man but as one that His audience considered to be YHWH.
???????Pierre,
As a man, Jesus was given the words to say and the vision of what to do by His Heavenly Father.While He pre-existed being a man, He was the YHWH that was seen and spoke as YHWH.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2012,05:17) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 11 2012,23:38) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 12 2012,11:15) You say He is Lord.
I say He is LORD!LORD as in Jehovah, the Son.
You can't say that Jesus is LORD as in Jehovah, the Son.
How can God make Jesus LORD?
Exactly! One has to always exist to be given that name. Hint, hint…the mystery is unfolding before your eyes.
God made Jesus, Lord. In nearly every bible in existence and even in the Dead Sea Scrolls, it says Lord not LORD.But if God made Jesus LORD, (as you say), then that is actually impossible because you cannot make someone anything if they are already that thing for all eternity.
This demonstrates your faulty reasoning and again you have been caught out.
No one can say Jesus is Lord unless they have the Spirit of God. And you can't say it because you are teaching a different view, that Jesus is YHWH.
Snapped LU.
Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
This scripture is referring to you LU, among other people of course.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 14 2012,22:46) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 14 2012,18:04)
I only want you to acknowledge the fact that JESUS said his God was also our God, and that YOU'VE created for yourself ANOTHER God to add to the One Jesus already said was both our God and his God.I want you to acknowledge this fact, because I hope that in doing so, you will realize the blatant and huge error you are making, and perhaps repent and turn back to the One who is TRULY your ONLY God.
This might help, Mike:“Let them understand, that they glory in vain of the testimony in which Wisdom speaks of being created in the beginning of the ways of God, and begotten and established; for if, according to them, he was created, he could not be begotten or born: if begotten or born, how could he be established and created?”
Sounds like this Jerome is arguing with the scriptures themselves, Kathi. He, like so many who came after him, is trying to FORCE the scriptures to teach what he WANTS them to teach.It is SCRIPTURAL that Wisdom was BOTH “created” AND “born”. (Prov 8:22, 24, 25)
Besides, I've already explained to you that YOU were “begotten”, and yet you are still a “creation” of God. See? Your were both “begotten” and “created” – just like every one of us.
I don't see how any of this addresses my bolded words in the quote box above, though.
Kathi, YOU'VE created for yourself ANOTHER God to add to the One Jesus already said was both our God and his God. Do you acknowledge this fact?
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 14 2012,22:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 15 2012,05:23) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 14 2012,15:58) Mike did you change color
Nope. I'm still a lightly tanned caucasian male. No Pierre, I'm still using the same purple. (I understand it's the color of royalty!
)Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 14 2012,22:59) Beforehand, the Son gave YHWH's Word to man, not as a man but as one that His audience considered to be YHWH.
Okay,First, those words don't match these words that you already posted:
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2012,23:55) …what He said were the very words from His Father that His audience considered their God. If his audience considered ONLY the Father as their God, then your whole theory that the ancient Jews somehow understood the word of God to be a different Jehovah doesn't add up.
Secondly, Hebrews 1:2 makes it fairly clear that it was only “in these last days” that God spoke to us through His Son. The writer distinguishes “in the past” from “in these last days”, right?
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 16 2012,03:44) But if God made Jesus LORD, (as you say), then that is actually impossible because you cannot make someone anything if they are already that thing for all eternity. This demonstrates your faulty reasoning and again you have been caught out.
Snapped LU.
Oh snap, indeed.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 16 2012,22:29) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 14 2012,22:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 15 2012,05:23) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 14 2012,15:58) Mike did you change color
Nope. I'm still a lightly tanned caucasian male. No Pierre, I'm still using the same purple. (I understand it's the color of royalty!
)
mikeit seems i saw an blue color in your quote ,but i guess i was wrong ,
is that a car dealer next to your home
t8,Dec. wrote:[/quote]
Quote 1 Timothy 6:15-16 (English-NIV)
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
.t8,
Read this version:
DRB:
1Timothy 6:14 thou keep the commandment without spot, blameless, unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,SO THE ABOVE IS A CLEAR REFERENCE TO JESUS CHRIST WHEN HE RETURNS IN THE GLORY OF THE FATHER, OR IN THE GLORY OF BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH AS ONE BEING, THE ONLY TRUE GOD,AND JESUS CHRIST!!!
15 Which in his times he shall shew who is the Blessed and only Mighty, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
HERE IT CONTINUES REFERRING TO JESUS CHRIST BY SAYING:
WHICH IN HIS ( JESUS) TIMES, obvious when He return to judge all in His SPIRIT, and FLESH state, the only true God and Jesus Christ HE (JESUS)SHALL SHOW WHO IS THE BLESSED,AND ONLY MIGHTY, THE KING OF KINGS(JESUS CHRIST),AND LORD OF LORDS( JESUS CHRIST)
16 Who only hath immortality, and inhabiteth light inaccessible, whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and empire everlasting. Amen.
WHO ONLY HAD IMMORTALITY, obvious the Father’s Spirit in Jesus’ flesh body, AND INHABITED LIGHT INACCESSIBLE, obvious again the Father’s Spirit inhabited the light, Jesus Christ flesh body,
GENESIS 1:3And God said: Be light made. And light was made
NOTICE GOD SAID: BE LIGHT MADE: THIS IS A REFERENCE TO THE SON’S SPIRIT LEAVING THE FATHER TO COMMENCE CREATION THROUGH THE ONLY LIGHT JESUS CHRIST JOHN 1:4,JOHN 8:12, JOHN 9:15, JOHN 12:46, 1 JOHN 2:8
THEN IT CONCLUDES:
WHO NO MAN HAD SEEN, NOR CAN SEE, obvious again the Father’s Spirit TO WHOM BE HONOUR AND EMPIRE EVERLASTING.AMEN
So as you can read in your version it USES “GOD”
WHERE IN THE DRB VERSION THE ONE I TRUST IT IS REFERRING TO THE :
LORD JESUS CHRIST GLORIFIED IN THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER!!!
SO JESUS CHRIST IS GOD GLORIFIED IN JESUS’ BODY,SINCE AS A SPIRIT NO ONE CAN SEE!!!
John 17:1……………. Father, the hour is come, glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee.
NOTICE: HE SAYS: GLORIFY YOUR SON,THAT YOUR SON MAY GLORIFY YOU!!!
SO THE FATHER AND THE SON GLORIFY EACH OTHER!!! OBVIOUS THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT.TILL THE LAST DAY WHEN THE FATHER WOULD BE ALL IN ALL!!!
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
Lightenup,Dec. wrote:[/quote]
Quote NO, satan is not the God of this world. Cathy,
I'm afraid in a way you are right, but in another you are not!!!
Jesus is in total command of both heaven and earth, but Satan is the ruler of this world, but under Jesus' JURISDICTION!!!
JESUS CONFIRMED AND SAID IN JOHN 14:30
I will not now speak many things with you. For the prince of this world cometh, and in me he hath not any thing.
AND ALSO PAUL CALLED HIM god of this world
YES I'M AFRAID HE COMPLETELY RUINED THIS WORLD THROUGH HIS EVIL WORK, BUT AGAIN JESUS SAID:IN JOHN 16:33
These things I have spoken to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you shall have DISTRESS: but have confidence, I have OVERCOME the world.
SO NO MATTER WHAT SATAN DOES, IT WOULD NOT IN ANY WAY BE DETRIMENTAL TO JESUS CHRIST KINGDOM.
ITS OVER AND DONE WITH!!!
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
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